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03-13-2015, 09:38 AM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
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Double flair is (was?) standard practice in automotive brake lines---been doing them for decades---havent seen it in aircraft, but no reason not to that I can think of.
The little round gadgets are the key, they are a gauge to show how much the tube extends, and also they are used to start the inverted part of the flare.
This one is automotive, makes 45* flares-------I suspect you could use the double flare insert with an aircraft 37* tool??
http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/pl...kMQaAss98P8HAQ

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Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
Last edited by Mike S : 03-13-2015 at 09:43 AM.
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03-13-2015, 09:46 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Estes Park, CO
Posts: 3,947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ppilotmike
I have the Rigid 37 deg tool, which I have used to do my hard lines. Luckily, I haven't done that many (only the ones in the wings). However, I'm now reconsidering them and may go back and redo them with 5052. If the Parker RoloFlare doesn't have a clutch (i.e. you have to learn the right point to stop), couldn't the Rigid tool be used in the same manner? Then I would still have the "clutch feature" available for doing stainless steel tube later in the build..
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That's exactly how it has to be used. The clutch break is way to tight for 3031. It only takes a few flares to find the sweet spot in # of turns past initial contact. I'm glad this thread started. I plan to do everything with 5052. The vent line in the tank will stay 3031.
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Larry Larson
Estes Park, CO
http://wirejockrv7a.blogspot.com
wirejock at yahoo dot com
Donated 12/03/2019, plus a little extra.
RV-7A #73391, N511RV reserved (2,000+ hours)
HS SB, empennage, tanks, wings, fuse, working finishing kit
Disclaimer
I cannot be, nor will I be, held responsible if you try to do the same things I do and it does not work and/or causes you loss, injury, or even death in the process.
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03-13-2015, 10:06 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 526
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technique
I have the Rol-Air 37 degree flaring tool. If you pick it up, you would assume by looking at it that you form the flares IN the die block. But the instructions are very specific that the tube must extend a specified length above the die block and the flare is actually formed ABOVE the die block by the rotation of the cone only. I don't know this is what happened with the OP's example, but forming the flare within the die block will cause thinning of the flare.
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03-13-2015, 10:26 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ottawa, Ks
Posts: 2,188
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Thanks for everyone's input and replies, I really do appreciate them even if I'm being flamed ! At least I'm not being flamed in the cockpit....Awareness/education is a good thing.
I almost didn't catch this, the fuel smell was barely detectable and I had just inspected the fuel system during the condition inspection. I've flown a lot of certified airplanes where a little bit of fuel smell in the cockpit was "normal."
I think Van's puts out a quality product with quality service (more like exceptional), their aircraft and success speak for themselves.
In the spirit of my "Education," I decided to run up to AirpartsInc since it's sort of in the neighborhood and pick up some 5052-O. I'm going to play with it, some 3003 and my tools.
Thanks again,
Andy
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RV 7 400 hours and counting
19 donation done
Last edited by crabandy : 03-13-2015 at 10:35 AM.
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03-13-2015, 10:31 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ottawa, Ks
Posts: 2,188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krw5927
Andy, good catch and great decision-making. As painful as it might be now, re-making your fuel lines will give you peace of mind when travelling with your girls.
If you'd like, you're welcome to my Parker Rolo-Flare for as long as you need, and I also have a rather large roll of 3/8" 3003 tubing that I have no plans for. That is, if you're not planning to use 5052. I might even be able to deliver them to OWI.
I agree with others that 3003 is adequate, however 5052 does have much better fatigue properties.
You're lucky that you don't have a nosewheel model - re-making the lines from the tank to the fuel selector is no treat. Ask me how I know 
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I appreciate it Kurt very generous, I'm going to play with my Rigid and go from there. I do have a good size roll of the 3003 as well from my second go with the fuel lines.
Yes, the slacker in me says to just fix the one line......It'll be fine....the others probably won't leak.....just keep a close eye on it and you can catch it before it becomes a problem........It sure is nice flying weather right now.....
The other part of me recalls the thread where the pilot jumped out of his burning plane without a chute.
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RV 7 400 hours and counting
19 donation done
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03-13-2015, 11:46 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Posts: 2,333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BJohnson
If you look closely at the photos, the material is not too thin. What appears to be thin is just the sharp edge of the fracture hiding the rest of that section. But the other side of the fracture shows the actual thickness of the material.
However, the flair has been sheared. The flair starts out fine as a cone, but the turns and forms a cylinder for a while, then continues as a cone. This cylinder appears to be a shear failure of the material. The actual fracture occurs where the material has yielded the most.
Assuming that the flair was overtightened is jumping to conclusions. What could cause this sort of shear? Was the flair made to the wrong angle? what tool was used to make he flair?
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Brice, I received no comments or replies to my earlier post in this thread regarding a potential cause. I still suspect the line may have short, such that the B-nut was putting tension on the flare. The photo evidence supports this.
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Alex Peterson
RV6A N66AP 1700+ hours
KADC, Wadena, MN
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03-13-2015, 12:39 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crabandy
Thanks for everyone's input and replies, I really do appreciate them even if I'm being flamed ! At least I'm not being flamed in the cockpit....Awareness/education is a good thing...
Andy
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There's a difference between constructive criticism and "flaming" for entertainment purposes. Though this forum has plenty of both going on at times, I can appreciate your willingness to put your ego on the line for the sake of "our" education. I've had to eat crow in the past and I'm sure I will again.
To your particular example, there are still quite a few tooling/emery cloth marks in a very critical, highly stressed area. Personally, I strive for a polished appearance. That said, that unusual "stretched" area of the flare itself is something I've never seen before. I think it's plausable the line was too short, but it would be nice to verify.
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WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
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Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
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03-13-2015, 02:48 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 2,791
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I predict the verdict is to use 5052-O after trials
Quote:
Originally Posted by crabandy
In the spirit of my "Education," I decided to run up to AirpartsInc since it's sort of in the neighborhood and pick up some 5052-O. I'm going to play with it, some 3003 and my tools.
Thanks again,
Andy
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after you experiment with flares of 3003 and 5052 I predict the verdict is 5052.
__________________
Steve Melton
Cincinnati, OH
RV-9A, Tip-up, Superior O-320, roller lifters, 160HP, WW 200RV, dual impulse slick mags, oil pressure = 65 psi, EGT = 1300F, flight hours = 800+ for all
Simplicity is the art in design.
My Artwork is freely given and published and cannot be patented.
www.rvplasticparts.com
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03-13-2015, 02:55 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 3,351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Melton
after you experiment with flares of 3003 and 5052 I predict the verdict is 5052.
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I have used both, first started with 3003 that came with the kit then changed to 5052 for a stronger tubing.
I did not notice much difference in my flares but the 5052 certainly is a stiffer and stronger tube.
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Mehrdad
N825SM RV7A - IO360M1B - SOLD
N825MS RV14A - IO390 - Flying
Dues paid
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03-13-2015, 08:25 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ottawa, Ks
Posts: 2,188
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So I flared the 3003 and the 5052 with my Rigid RFT37 tool, I inserted the tubing flush with the face of the tool and used a couple drops of lube. I cranked the flare until the clutch released, here's the results between the two.
Here's the results of 3 turns of the flare tool for the 3003 and 4 turns for the 5052, pretty consistent.
I used this chart as a reference for flare diameter,
When the 3003 is over flared per the flare diameter it loses a lot of thickness, I wasn't able to over-flare the 5052 because of the clutch. When the 3003 was flared to the correct diameter it retained the same thickness as the 5052.
Both the 3003 and the 5052 felt way to tight wit 2 flats past finger tight, I need to compare torque vs flats from wrench resistance (FFWR). At 2 FFWR the flare gained a shoulder from the nut/sleeve on both alloys.
After flaring but before tightening,
After tightening the same flare 2 FFWR,
I'm guessing that I first over flared the original 3003 tubing (it was .510 diameter) and then over torqued the tubing causing the eventual crack, all in all it was pretty good to me considering what I did to it. It was about .017-.020 thick.
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RV 7 400 hours and counting
19 donation done
Last edited by crabandy : 03-14-2015 at 04:07 AM.
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