Riveting dilemma!

Jwputnam · #1 03-01-2015, 06:33 AM

I get so frustrated!!!!! I work hard to build a good RV-9a. I check almost all rivets. I replace many. I measure and re measure constantly, BUT some areas (like HS nose ribs and rudder top and bottom) consistently defeat me. I have a tungsten bar and a nice pneumatic squeezer with several yokes, but some of these spaces are extremely marginal. Example: the top and bottom of the rudder spars (ribs) don't allow enough space to rivet on the skin at the last four holes (especially once rivets are already installed on the opposite side)........BUT this (OCD) idiot seems to be compelled to force the issue. Soooooo......I have managed to dent up the edge at the top of my rudder and my attempts to make it look better have made it worse of course. The installation of the fiberglass tip with perhaps a couple of extra strategically placed rivets will hopefully improve it and then, with luck, the painter may be able to hide it with bonds, but I get sooooo discouraged!

The plans make no mention of substituting pop rivets in this particular area, so that is why I struggled to make solid rivets work. I think I am going to have to start using pop rivets in these areas to avoid making crappy looking parts. I worry that I am "compromising", but what is a guy to do?

This post is mostly a rant of course, but does anyone have a suggestion? How do you guys handle these tight spots? Wrapping the bar doesn't help as I don't even have enough room for the bar alone! I am very discouraged right now. My rudder is structurally fine, but cosmetically disgraceful.

BillL · #2 03-01-2015, 07:05 AM

Building, like piloting, is comprised of skill and judgement. Time and experiences develop both. People told me, there is no shame in a pulled rivet. True . . and now I have an assortment of Cherry Max rivets in the parts bin.

It is common in the beginning to have the drive for perfection and just as common to mar what is well. After all, holding to a high standard yields more knowledge and developed skill.

Don't hesitate to make your own bucking bars or other tools to aid in setting rivets. Also, there truly is no shame in using pull rivets. They are just as strong, (some are stronger) and when painted, only you and another emp builder will look.

Bravo for trying to be perfect! My kind of guy, but also develop the skill to know when to quit. You are well on the way.

Scott, at Vans, says that never, ever try something new on your to be flying airplane. That means parts, techniques etc. It is very true. Practice, test, measure , and find what you don't know. Then use on the part for the plane. This is very sage advice.

Happy building!

wirejock · #3 03-01-2015, 08:13 AM

There are lots of places where the standard stuff just won't work. A photo might help others give suggestions.
Here are a few.
1. No hole yoke and squeezer
2. Place the part on the back rivet plate. Use a huge flat screwdriver as a bucking bar and drive the screwdriver with the rivet gun as close as you can get to the part.
3. Use a pulled rivet. Vans calls out an MK-319-BS in some very tight 3-/32" skin holes. If you use Cherrymax, study the manufacturer tables. They have very close tolerances for hole size and grip.

DaleB · #4 03-01-2015, 03:31 PM

Don't get discouraged. I did a couple of times before my wife, bless her heart, pointed out that maybe I just expected to be able to make things look perfect because there are things that I can do to perfection, but I've never done *this* stuff before.

Along the way two things have happened. One, while I don't achieve perfection, I've gotten a lot better and so will you. I learned how to set rivets in some of the more gnarly locations and to be patient when trying to figure out new challenges. Two, I have gained an understanding of something I couldn't really fathom before... namely, why people build a second or third airplane.

YellowJacket RV9 · #5 03-01-2015, 04:16 PM

I went through much the same. So much so that in a fit of frustration I actually tossed out my horizontal stabilizer and right elevator. They would have been perfectly airworthy of course. Fast forward 2.5 years and while working on the finishing kit I decided it was time to build those parts again. With the experience acquired, I built the HS in just a couple short days, without drilling out a single rivet. Just about done with the new elevator and same story there. You will get much better at finding ways to set those tough rivets, and also more experienced at deciding what is worth fixing, and what should be left alone.

The downside to all this learning is that now I already want to build another one with all my new-found knowledge.

Chris

Jwputnam · #6 03-05-2015, 08:59 AM

All excellent advice and very welcome responses!

I ordered a no hole yoke and I am resigned to using pop rivets where it won't work. I have dented enough aluminum. No more.

Can't really afford to throw out my HS and rudder. They are structurally fine, just not without some crappy dents that I am pretty sure that the painter can hide.

Going to build on. Feeling better now that I know that I am not entirely alone. OCD is a bitch!

Thanks guys

Jrskygod · #7 03-05-2015, 09:51 AM

It ain't no spaceship. Just check out the crappy riveting on Pipers and Cessnas and you'll quickly realize that a few less than perfect rivets won't make it fall out of the sky, especially if they are in non critical areas. No one yet has built the perfect airplane although some have tried awfully hard. Funny thing is most of those perfect airplanes are not flying because the builder just gave up or its already been 10 years in the building and the builder is still drilling and replacing his less than perfect rivets.

wirejock · #8 03-05-2015, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jwputnam

All excellent advice and very welcome responses!

I ordered a no hole yoke and I am resigned to using pop rivets where it won't work. I have dented enough aluminum. No more.

Can't really afford to throw out my HS and rudder. They are structurally fine, just not without some crappy dents that I am pretty sure that the painter can hide.

Going to build on. Feeling better now that I know that I am not entirely alone. OCD is a bitch!

Thanks guys

Others may vehemently disagree but I believe as builders we progress through stages.
1. We start out with a goal of building the perfect airplane. Polished to a mirror shine with perfect rivets. The only problem is most of us start with virtually no prior sheet metal skills. When I rebuilt my HS I was disgusted by the workmanship. Under driven, over driven, edge distance violations and more. Yes it was my work. I humbly admit.
2. Skills develop and we reach a comfort point where things go pretty well and fewer mistakes are made. Happiness is achievable.
3. Some of us reach a false sense of expert skill. Pray you pass this stage. Personally, I realized it the other day. I made several errors in one day and realized it was because in my arrogance, even after thoroughly reading plans and manual, my wanna be skilled brain just did it they way I thought it should be done. When I went back and read the notes over, it was clearly not what I initially thought it said. I call it Builder Scotoma. Danger zone. Avoid this stage like the plague. It's the most expensive stage in the builder growth cycle.
4. For the experts out there, I truly envy the final stage and hope someday to get close. These are the Bodisatfas on VAF who really know the stuff. Hopefully my Lucy can endure till I get some semblance of this kind of knowledge and skill.
This is all conjecture. Just personal observation. YMMV