Help me understand the advantage of AOA in a 2 seat RV

[akarmy]

Originally Posted by Ed_Wischmeyer

I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me how to adjust target AOA for gusty wind conditions. There are several techniques taught for airspeed, but when I ask this question about AOA, nobody is willing to give an answer...

So I very much doubt I have the authoritative answer on this one, as a lowly PPSEL 1500 hr pilot... but I've been flying with AOA in both a 9A and 8 for the last 10 years and here's what I see.

My AOA display is very very quick. As the gusts are hitting you the AOA will show instantly what's happening. I use that as a good indication of the need to add extra margin. Just like when using Airspeed as a reference you can simply add a few more bars of AOA into the bank as extra energy to help with the gusts. In both of my planes the AOA would react faster than the airspeed (either analog gauge or Skyview).

So basically as i'm coming down final as the AOA goes up into the red, I push down a touch and add power. I also can't stress enough that if you are not looking at it, or hearing it, you're not using AOA. So most people that have AOA embedded in their EFIS or down on the panel somewhere usually don't see a value in using it. Here's how I mounted it to keep it visible. I know many others have done the exact same thing. Both vertically and horizontally on the glare shield.

First flight by akarmy, on Flickr

[rjbob]

Okay...for all those who have a AOA system installed in your aircraft, I have a question.

If your AOA malfunctions, will you be lost? Not know how to manage on base to final? Not know to increase airspeed in gusty conditions?

In some aircraft, an AOA indicator is a must and is required equipment. In the planes flown by pilots on a forum like this, an AOA indicator should not take away from money spent learning one's airplane.

In an RV, there is no substitute for the experience gained from training and practice.

In an earlier post, an example was made of a pilot who had a habit of making low airspeed, low altitude, 60 degree banks from base to final. Here's what an aural AOA would do for that pilot...start bank, hear pretty noise from the AOA , and crash.

By all means, install an AOA if you wish. It certainly won't hurt and can be helpful in some situations but there are many things that would/could be more beneficial to an RV pilot.

The "training and practice" thing I mentioned is fact...everything else is only my opinion.
Bob

[Bavafa]

Originally Posted by Ironflight

The AFS Pro gives AoA resolution to 0.1 degree on the bottom of the color ladder, and it is very precise.

Paul

Paul, I know you have experience with both the AoA that GRT provides and AoA from advance. In terms of accuracy only, how would you compare them considering it will be used in a GA type flying. In another word, since I already have one provided by GRT, would I benefit greatly going with a dedicated AoA.

BTW, I hope I am not putting you on spot with this question and feel free to ignore if if it is not appropriate to comment since I am comparing brand names in this discussion

[Ironflight]

Originally Posted by rjbob

Okay...for all those who have a AOA system installed in your aircraft, I have a question.

If your AOA malfunctions, will you be lost? Not know how to manage on base to final? Not know to increase airspeed in gusty conditions?

In some aircraft, an AOA indicator is a must and is required equipment. In the planes flown by pilots on a forum like this, an AOA indicator should not take away from money spent learning one's airplane.

In an RV, there is no substitute for the experience gained from training and practice.

In an earlier post, an example was made of a pilot who had a habit of making low airspeed, low altitude, 60 degree banks from base to final. Here's what an aural AOA would do for that pilot...start bank, hear pretty noise from the AOA , and crash.

By all means, install an AOA if you wish. It certainly won't hurt and can be helpful in some situations but there are many things that would/could be more beneficial to an RV pilot.

The "training and practice" thing I mentioned is fact...everything else is only my opinion.
Bob

Lost? Absolutely not! I am also not lost if I lose ASI, Altimeter, compass heading, RPM, manifold pressure....or anything else on the panel. Have flown airplanes with none of them. Does that mean we should throw away all useful tools becasue we can do without them? That would be a silly argument, wouldn't it.

[rjbob]

Originally Posted by Ironflight

Lost? Absolutely not! I am also not lost if I lose ASI, Altimeter, compass heading, RPM, manifold pressure....or anything else on the panel. Have flown airplanes with none of them. Does that mean we should throw away all useful tools becasue we can do without them? That would be a silly argument, wouldn't it.

HMMM...
We should absolutely not throw away useful tools. I have also flown aircraft with and without these instruments.

All those instruments you mention, however, such as ASI, Altimeter, etc., are more useful (again, IMHO) than an AOA in an RV.

I mentioned that it could be helpful to have one but, I believe, totally unnecessary. We could compensate for the malfunction of one or all of the "necessary" instruments (like ASI, Altimeter, etc.) but it would take some mental effort to do so...not the case with an AOA in a Van's airplane.

If you need training, get it. If you need practice, do it. If you want to spend money on your panel, get an engine monitor to help protect your engine. Get an autopilot to help combat fatigue on long flights. Get a better radio.

Get an AOA system if you need one.

Again,my opinion...which is what the OP asked for.

[rjbob]

Originally Posted by Ironflight

Lost? Absolutely not! I am also not lost if I lose ASI, Altimeter, compass heading, RPM, manifold pressure....or anything else on the panel. Have flown airplanes with none of them. Does that mean we should throw away all useful tools becasue we can do without them? That would be a silly argument, wouldn't it.

Tell you what, Paul...I, like you, have a lot of experience, in a lot of planes, for a lot of years. I certainly have flown my share of AOA equipped aircraft.

I feel that an experienced pilot, like yourself, would use an AOA in the manner for what is intended; not as a primary instrument.

Learn the airplane...then equip it for what you think it needs to suit your needs.

Gotta have an AOA? Go for it!

[Smilin' Jack]

Did you just add another AOA or figure out how to get the info off the DYNON SKYVIEW some how.
Another question, if not using the same source, do both AOA agree?
Jack

[60av8tor]

Originally Posted by rjbob

I mentioned that it could be helpful to have one but, I believe, totally unnecessary. We could compensate for the malfunction of one or all of the "necessary" instruments (like ASI, Altimeter, etc.) but it would take some mental effort to do so...not the case with an AOA in a Van's airplane.

If you need training, get it. If you need practice, do it. If you want to spend money on your panel, get an engine monitor to help protect your engine. Get an autopilot to help combat fatigue on long flights. Get a better radio.

Get an AOA system if you need one...

You're right, it is totally unnecessary and no, it is absolutely not needed. BUT that doesn't change the fact that it is just another tool to give one a bit more information. Like any tool, it can be misused. Like the argument about "children of magenta" both sides are right depending on the scenario. I always like the argument of heads down time with MFD nav and I think back to finger to chart nav. Way more heads inside time the old school way in certain scenarios. My eyes are outside, but they're desperately searching the ground for that intersection, feature, etc.

So, it can be misused and used as a crutch. But it can also tremendously add to that training and practice. I know to watch my nose vs. horizon, loading, trim, etc during that base to final turn, but how close to the stall was I. My AOA tells me. I can still surprise myself at times when out playing around doing airwork by sneaking up on an accelerated stall - sometimes I'm distracted by my fun, sometimes my butt is lying, sometimes a combination. AOA's great teaching aspect is the ability to always see the reserve and to see and learn how my actions affect that reserve.

Need it to fly a traffic pattern and land at 90 knots? Nope. But I'm glad I added it and enjoy having one more tool, if used properly, that helps me continue to learn.

[akarmy]

Originally Posted by Smilin' Jack

Did you just add another AOA or figure out how to get the info off the DYNON SKYVIEW some how.
Another question, if not using the same source, do both AOA agree?
Jack

I really wished there was a remote AOA for the Skyview, but alas no... and I really wanted it on the glare shield so I put in the Advanced AOA Pro as a separate system. I did use the Dynon / Advanced Pitot which feeds the AOA data to both systems.

I have not calibrated or used the AOA in Skyview so I don't know how they would compare. Guess I could sometime as it's all hooked up, just turned off in software.

[rjbob]

Originally Posted by 60av8tor

You're right, it is totally unnecessary and no, it is absolutely not needed. BUT that doesn't change the fact that it is just another tool to give one a bit more information. Like any tool, it can be misused. Like the argument about "children of magenta" both sides are right depending on the scenario. I always like the argument of heads down time with MFD nav and I think back to finger to chart nav. Way more heads inside time the old school way in certain scenarios. My eyes are outside, but they're desperately searching the ground for that intersection, feature, etc.

So, it can be misused and used as a crutch. But it can also tremendously add to that training and practice. I know to watch my nose vs. horizon, loading, trim, etc during that base to final turn, but how close to the stall was I. My AOA tells me. I can still surprise myself at times when out playing around doing airwork by sneaking up on an accelerated stall - sometimes I'm distracted by my fun, sometimes my butt is lying, sometimes a combination. AOA's great teaching aspect is the ability to always see the reserve and to see and learn how my actions affect that reserve.

Need it to fly a traffic pattern and land at 90 knots? Nope. But I'm glad I added it and enjoy having one more tool, if used properly, that helps me continue to learn.

Totally agree with you.

Sounds like you're not afraid of training and/or practice.