IFR GPS?

[Bevan]

What is the cheapest/easiest way to add TSO'd GPS receiver for IFR including precision approaches to a Sport EFIS? I know the the internal GRT GPS is VFR only as are most.

And can it be a receiver only (for position data) or does it have to have a moving map with user interface? (no more panel space available)

Bevan

[BobTurner]

I cannot speak to Canada, but in the US:

There is no "cheap" way.
US regulations require a gps meeting all the TSO standards (for a precision approach that would be TSO 145/146, I think). I do not know that a map is required but they all have them.
The cheapest new option available is a Garmin GTN series, hardly inexpensive.
Least expensive used is a Apollo/Garmin 480 (I think it will do LPV).
If you give up the precision approaches you can get older stuff, Garmin 300, King KLN89B, to name two. These are obsolete TSO129 boxes but can still be used in the US.
All of these have buttons to push, I think you need to find panel space. Note some of them require annunciators; those that don't (400 series, GTN series) require the box itself be within a certain distance of the "centerline" view, usually meaning the AI, or else you need additional annunciators. I don't think anyone (not even Garmin and the G3X) currently supports complete remote mounting.

As an aside, GRT has been working (for years!) on what you seek: a remote mounted gps that can be used with their EFIS for IFR. I think they've found it much more difficult than they imagined. They don't talk about it anymore.

[dynonsupport]

Bevan,
Bevan,
In the USA, the requirements for IFR are a NAVIGATOR not just a GPS. You must have a screen, databases, software, navigation calculations, etc in the unit. See Dynon's position on this here:

http://dynonavionics.com/cgi-bin/yab...num=1362597418

I see you appear to be in Canada. I can't speak 100% for their GPS requirements and if they would allow a GPS position source to drive an uncertified navigator, but they do have the annoying requirement of a backup:

Sufficient radio navigation equipment to permit the pilot, in the event of the failure at any stage of the flight of any item of that equipment, including any associated flight instrument display,

(i) to proceed to the destination aerodrome or proceed to another aerodrome that is suitable for landing, and

(ii) where the aircraft is operated in IMC, to complete an instrument approach and, if necessary, conduct a missed approach procedure."

So in Canada, you must have a backup that can work with independence, so a single Garmin GTN/GNS with integrated VOR and GPS hooked to a single EFIS doesn't count as far as I know.

[BCP Boys]

Just a word of caution... If you have never used an older King GPS you may want to spend the extra and get a Garmin. I tried a King KLN 89B in my Cessna 310 prior to purchasing my RV for a few years and had a very difficult time with the user interface. It's older technology doesn't lend itself to popularity and not much training found online or even CD courses on how to use it to it's fullest capabilities. But most older Garmin units have a much easier user interface. Maybe even think about going with a Garmin 400 series depending on what you are trying to accomplish. You will certainly find training courses online to get more familiar with it. I was told by my avionics shop just yesterday that Garmin has no more "new" 430's which doesn't surprise me since they've been End of Lifed for a while now. So if you want to buy new and looking for a fully capable GPS, then the 650 is the way to go but it will hurt the checking account significantly as you compare it to older models.

[SteinAir]

There is no real simple answer here. First, as Dynon mentions there are some general equipment requirements for IFR in Canada, next there ar some fairly specific requirements for GPS usage in IFR. There is a fairly straightforward AIC from NavCanada that spells out what GPS devices (or at least their TSO) can be used for what phases of flight. Details here: https://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products...ng_2008_16.pdf

Next, you'll need to know if you already have ARINC capability (and possibly annunciations) in your EFIS. Lastly, you need to figure out which device(s) will meet all those requirements AND work with your EFIS.

I'm sorry I have no specific answer for you because the answer at this point is: "it depends...".

Cheers,
Stein

[jclark]

Originally Posted by Bevan

What is the cheapest/easiest way to add TSO'd GPS receiver for IFR including precision approaches to a Sport EFIS? I know the the internal GRT GPS is VFR only as are most.

And can it be a receiver only (for position data) or does it have to have a moving map with user interface? (no more panel space available)

Bevan

I have a Garmin 400W that I plan to add to my Sport based set-up in a few days.

Get yourself a GTN 400W from someone like Stein and get the ARINC module from GRT.

This all assumes that you either have something like an SL-30 or you don't care about the ILS, VOR, Localizer stuff. It also assumes that you already have all the COMM you need.

I have been running an SL30 for a few years so that will cover ILS, Localizer and VOR approaches if needed. (Should be rare, given the 400W). Also covers COMM that the 400W lacks.

James

[jpowell13]

I was fortunate enough to find a barely used Garmin 400w out of an Eclipse jet for $3000. Might check the local avionics shops to see if anyone has one from an upgrade that they don't feel like marketing.

John

[Bevan]

Hmmm, I will have to look into that and wonder what the dimensions are for the 400W.

I already have SL30.

Bevan

[Bevan]

Originally Posted by SteinAir

I'm sorry I have no specific answer for you because the answer at this point is: "it depends...".

Yes, my question is Canada specific because this is where I am based, but would like to eventually file IFR into the US (lower requirements?). After reading that document Stein posted, I get the impression that IFR certified GPS in Canada is not practical since the standards are so high and backups are still required. So I will change the discussion slightly...

What are the recommended changes I need to make to convert my RV7A to an IFR platform? Currently I have...

1 GRT Sport EFIS (Nav data available from either GPS)
Backup analog instruments including (airspeed, altimeter, compass)
Garmin 396 (VFR only)
SL60 Navcomm (enroute and terminal operation)
SL30 Navcomm (VOR)
Two-axis auto pilot (GPS data can come from EFIS or direct from either GPS)
Heated Pitot and Alt static

I don't have ARINC at this point.

I have desigated space for a 2nd EFIS which will fulfill the requirement for a backup display (and eliminate the need for backup analog instruments if they become redundant). I realize that will be very useful all other times for a permanent map display/engine display.

I don't want to add ADF as there is no room on the panel for another "radio". This is why I was asking about a GOS module that could go under behind the panel somewhere (just to give accurate position data to the EFIS).

Bevan

[deej]

Originally Posted by Bevan

This is why I was asking about a GPS module that could go under behind the panel somewhere (just to give accurate position data to the EFIS).

Hi Bevan,
Unfortunately adding a simple GPS module for position data won't help for IFR, since you still need to have a database that has all of the approach procedures to drive the "needle", and currently the EFIS does not support this. All of this is built in to the IFR approach rated GPS.

The caveat here is that you asked for precision GPS approaches, which as mentioned, is very expensive. However, if non-precision IFR approaches are acceptable, there are a lot of options for older GPS units that will work, such as the KLN-89B, the KLN-94, Apollo GX-50 and GX-60, etc. I've seen units like these sell for $500 or so, used and in good working condition. Database updates are still available.

I have an Apollo GX-50 hooked to a GRT HX, and it works fine. Not as fancy as the newer Garmin units, but works for running the autopilot and doing the older "step down" GPS approaches.

-Dj