VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

-POSTING RULES
-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.


Go Back   VAF Forums > Main > RV Photo/Video URLs
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-30-2014, 06:26 AM
SmittysRV's Avatar
SmittysRV SmittysRV is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 448
Default RV-7A Aerobatics Lesson with Air Show Pilot Adam Baker - Part 2

This video is Part 2 in the series with aerobatics instructor Adam Baker. Adam is a local air show pilot who holds an unlimited ground level waiver. In this video, Gene starts out the lesson with more Stall/Spin recovery techniques. Then they have a little more fun with some aerobatics. Gene and I are hangar mates and love putting these videos together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ooGy0T5auU

In case you missed it, here's Part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb_lKYuKxvU
__________________
Smitty

Last edited by SmittysRV : 11-30-2014 at 06:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-30-2014, 07:26 AM
Arlen's Avatar
Arlen Arlen is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: New Smyrna Beach, FL
Posts: 305
Default

Thanks for posting that.

The only aerobatics I've done has been spin training in a Cessna 150 about 25 years ago and in a Decathlon a couple years ago. I've had my -6 for just 9 months, and have not yet gotten instruction for aerobatics in it.

You've inspired me to give it more serious consideration..

Where does Adam Baker reside, by the way...?
__________________
Arlen
Donation to VAF 10.29.18
RV-6, February '14, SOLD December '15
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-30-2014, 05:35 PM
sandifer sandifer is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 667
Default

Another nice video Smitty. BTW, Adam has a 250' waiver, not surface- not that it matters. There's not necessarily any correlation between aerobatic skill/teaching ability and airshow waivers. There are lots of exceptional aerobatic instructors and pilots out there who don't fly air shows. Plenty of airshow pilots aren't heroic aerobats, they just do it for some level of personal satisfaction. That being said, Adam seems perfectly competent. Though I find his recommendation to recover "a flat spin or something like that" with aft stick and right rudder to be questionable advice. I'm very tuned into spin training in the aerobatic community, and this just isn't taught. Most aerobatic airplanes (including RVs - not sure about the small tail RV-6) WILL recover any left rudder spin, flat or otherwise, with right rudder and aft stick, but for the aerobatic pilot, this is not a good emergency recovery technique. Aft stick and right rudder will prevent recovery for any inverted spin mode. Aerobatic pilots have definitely been known to produce spins of all types by accident. For a right rudder inverted spin, aft stick and right rudder will just accelerate it. For a left rudder inverted spin, aft stick and right rudder will cause a crossover to an upright spin - which can be confusing to pilots who have never experienced this.

There are only (3) widely-accepted spin recovery techniques in the acro community. One is for active recovery, and the other two are emergency recovery techniques. The active technique is what most of us probably learned in initial PPL training - PARE (Power off, Ailerons neutral, Rudder opposite, Elevator forward to some degree). Then there are (2) emergency techniques - Beggs-Muller and the neutral control technique. Beggs-Muller involves pulling power off, applying opposite rudder, and letting go of the stick completely. The neutral control technique involves pulling power, and visually neutralizing ALL controls, and waiting for recovery.

There are good reasons behind these three techniques, and IMO, no other techniques should be (or need to be) taught. And in any case, neutralizing the controls will typically recover any spin type only slightly less quickly as PARE, but is an emergency recovery technique that will work regardless of spin type - unlike the aft stick, right rudder technique.

And all that being said, keep up the good work Smitty.

Last edited by sandifer : 12-01-2014 at 10:29 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-30-2014, 08:58 PM
genelee59 genelee59 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 37
Default

Thanks for taking the time to explain the recovery techniques that you're familiar with. It sounds like you really know your spin stuff!
I'm going to print out your response and on my next lesson with Adam i'll ask him to explain the differences between his method and what you say ( maybe he just misspoke in the moment ).
But no matter what, i'm all about learning everything i can about recovery, because i'm sure to goof up something as i learn
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-30-2014, 09:03 PM
genelee59 genelee59 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 37
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlen View Post
Thanks for posting that.

The only aerobatics I've done has been spin training in a Cessna 150 about 25 years ago and in a Decathlon a couple years ago. I've had my -6 for just 9 months, and have not yet gotten instruction for aerobatics in it.

You've inspired me to give it more serious consideration..

Where does Adam Baker reside, by the way...?
Arlen, congrats on getting a -6, and i find that awesome that you've been inspired to give it a try too!
The more i get lessons on this stuff, the more comfortable i'm becoming with it. I am looking forward to the day in the not so far future where i'm up there doing this on my own.

Adam lives in the North Dallas area. What part of the country are you in?

- Gene
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-01-2014, 10:40 AM
sandifer sandifer is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 667
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by genelee59 View Post
But no matter what, i'm all about learning everything i can about recovery, because i'm sure to goof up something as i learn
BTW, in the first video Adam hints at something that most aerobatic and airshow pilots know and/or utilize, but do not necessarily teach to those receiving primary aerobatic/spin training - that is the use of power during spin recoveries. Most aerobatic airplanes will recover a spin (normal, flat, upright, inverted, etc.) more quickly with power than without power. Airshow pilots always leave power in to recover flat spins. But in this case, power is used as an active recovery technique for a spin mode that has been practiced many times to precise and known outcomes. This is a very different concept from emergency spin recovery that would be invoked in cases of accidental spins possibly involving pilot confusion or lost situational awarenesss. In this case, leaving power on can make things worse if your inputs aren't correct. Power off is a way to remove potentially upsetting spin forces, and is virtually universally accepted as a critical step in emergency spin recovery. The first step in training is to ingrain default responses into pilot's brains that will keep them from killing themselves. More advanced techniques can be practiced as the pilot's skill and comfort level increase.

Last edited by sandifer : 12-01-2014 at 10:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-01-2014, 12:34 PM
rmr rmr is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Ormond Beach
Posts: 24
Default

Great video Smitty and thank you for posting.
One thing you always here about the RV series is that they accelerate very quickly in the down line. In fact as I've practiced aerobatics in Pitts I've been purposely practicing removing power anytime the nose is pointing below the horizon (after attaining entry speed) and putting power in after the nose crosses above the horizon. I tried to listen to any power changes while you were doing your loop and didn't notice any. By any chance did you notice your airspeed on the way down and did you ever get close to Vne?
Cant wait for part three!

Richie Rivera
RV7A,
Ormond beach, FL
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-01-2014, 01:03 PM
sandifer sandifer is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 667
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmr View Post
In fact as I've practiced aerobatics in Pitts I've been purposely practicing removing power anytime the nose is pointing below the horizon (after attaining entry speed) and putting power in after the nose crosses above the horizon.
Depends on what you're trying to get out of the airplane. Even flying Sportsman level acro, I pretty much fly my Pitts using two throttle positions - wide open and fully closed. The only time it's closed is for spins. Pitts' are very draggy. I don't exceed Vne, but don't bother looking at the tach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmr View Post
I tried to listen to any power changes while you were doing your loop and didn't notice any. By any chance did you notice your airspeed on the way down and did you ever get close to Vne?
There's no need to make power changes through a loop. If anything, you can add full power on the way up and return to your entry setting on the way down. Or you can do a loop from cruise power without touching a thing. In any airplane, as long as you enter and exit at about the same altitude, you'd need to break some laws of physics to exit with significantly more airspeed than what you entered with. There is also no need to pull more G on the backside compared to what you intially pulled with. Airspeed will only get out of control if you are very tentative pulling through the backside, and end up well below your entry altitude. Severe overspeeding on loops is like blown aileron rolls- it's generally only going to happen if you botch it up during your initial learning attempts. This is what instructors are for. It's very quick and easy to get past this stage and to the point of safely (but not necessarily beautifully) performing the basic figures.

Last edited by sandifer : 12-01-2014 at 01:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-01-2014, 01:28 PM
rmr rmr is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Ormond Beach
Posts: 24
Default

Thanks Sandifer!

Richie Rivera
RV7A
Ormond Beach, FL
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-01-2014, 01:49 PM
cka357's Avatar
cka357 cka357 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Richmond, KY
Posts: 57
Default

Great Videos.... This has helped inspire me to get back after it. Thanks for posting.
__________________
RV7 in Process
- Empennage Complete
- Wings and Fuel Tanks Complete
- Fuselage In Process
Dues Paid 10/16

http://mykitlog.com/cka357[/url]
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:55 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.