|
-
POSTING RULES

-
Donate yearly (please).
-
Advertise in here!
-
Today's Posts
|
Insert Pics
|

09-22-2014, 12:06 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Houston
Posts: 16
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike H
Two or three flute countersink cutters will not chatter if they are turned at the correct speed and the correct feed pressure is used. We never use single flute cutters at work, although I have used them in the past.
I like a pneumatic squeezers just as much as the next guy,and they are necessary when working on heavy aircraft. You have to be very careful to not damage light structure while using them. I have a Tatco hand squeezer and use it for everything on my RV.
|
What is the correct speed / feed pressure? Cleveland just seems to carry the three flute, so I'm stuck there.
Are the microstop cages for countersinking that DO NOT feature the teeth pretty worthless, or do they work just as well minus the feeling of more precise accuracy of adjustment?
|

09-22-2014, 12:35 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Irvine, CA
Posts: 416
|
|
For anyone not familiar with the single flute countersinks and considering them, I recommend finding the video Mike Lauritsen produced on the Cleaveland site, showing how to use them. I use them and think they're great, but it's necessary to know that they cut much more aggressively than other types, so a lighter touch technique is called for.
__________________
John Halcrow
Tustin, CA
RV-12 120682
Emp/TC done; Wings done; Fuse kit done
"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives." --Abba Eban
Paid up until Aug 2021
|

09-22-2014, 12:39 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Estes Park, CO
Posts: 3,947
|
|
Microstops
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devious Rhesus
What is the correct speed / feed pressure? Cleveland just seems to carry the three flute, so I'm stuck there.
Are the microstop cages for countersinking that DO NOT feature the teeth pretty worthless, or do they work just as well minus the feeling of more precise accuracy of adjustment?
|
I can't help with the first question as I continue to use my single flute.
On the second, you have time. Watch the VAF classifieds and Ebay. You can save money watching for additional tools. All three of my microstops are the ones with notches and all three were purchased used.
__________________
Larry Larson
Estes Park, CO
http://wirejockrv7a.blogspot.com
wirejock at yahoo dot com
Donated 12/03/2019, plus a little extra.
RV-7A #73391, N511RV reserved (2,000+ hours)
HS SB, empennage, tanks, wings, fuse, working finishing kit
Disclaimer
I cannot be, nor will I be, held responsible if you try to do the same things I do and it does not work and/or causes you loss, injury, or even death in the process.
|

09-22-2014, 01:07 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 1,029
|
|
I'd get one of these (swivel flush rivet set):
http://www.amazon.com/Boulderfly-Swi...dp/B00GVDTESO/
Plus more #30 and #40 bits, a good scale, a cheap digital scale for weighing tank sealant, safety glasses, hearing protection, a good respirator, a right angle drill adaptor and screwdriver adaptor, more bucking bars, and more countersink cutters.
I'd stick with a hand squeezer and C frame.
__________________
RV-7ER - finishing kit and systems installation
There are two kinds of fool in the world. The first says "this is old, and therefore good"; the second says "this is new, and therefore better".
|

09-22-2014, 01:19 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: santa barbara, CA
Posts: 1,682
|
|
consider a rivet fan and a jig for drilling nut plates. Can you get by without them? Sure, but you will use both many many times and be thankful you had them.
|

09-22-2014, 01:39 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Welsford, Nova Scotia
Posts: 116
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devious Rhesus
What is the correct speed / feed pressure? Cleveland just seems to carry the three flute, so I'm stuck there.
Are the microstop cages for countersinking that DO NOT feature the teeth pretty worthless, or do they work just as well minus the feeling of more precise accuracy of adjustment?
|
Page 18 of the paper catalog, you'll find the single hole cutters right above the three hole cutters.
That was part of the reason why I recommended earlier to get their catalog. I found it much more user friendly than the website.
Until I got the catalog, I didn't even know there were two microstops to choose from.
__________________
__________________
Al
|

09-22-2014, 02:29 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Harrisburg, Pa
Posts: 759
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devious Rhesus
What is the correct speed / feed pressure? Cleveland just seems to carry the three flute, so I'm stuck there.
Are the microstop cages for countersinking that DO NOT feature the teeth pretty worthless, or do they work just as well minus the feeling of more precise accuracy of adjustment?
|
Michael - I felt much more comfortable, initially, with the single flutes - as Mike said, I really think it was my technique. I snapped the pilots off a couple single flutes (they are much more delicate), so I started using the 3-flute. Now, that is all I use. Most of the chatter issues I had was speed/pressure related. You really just need to play around with some scrap and get a feel. I also get better results, if the CS is deep, if I gradually increase the depth - i.e. I will set the correct depth, then back of a turn or so. I then countersink the holes, adjust the cage to the proper depth and go back over the holes for the final depth.
As far as cages... I have both versions and IMO I have no preference. The only difference that matters to me is the foot - some are smaller than others. Some also have a layer of plastic on the foot vs. bare metal rubbing against your work piece.
|

09-26-2014, 06:08 AM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Harare, Zimbabwe
Posts: 200
|
|
I purchased the Cleaveland tool package just over a year ago for my RV-7 build. Can't comment on RV-14 specifics but I'm happy to comment on the Cleaveland package in general, there are a few things I'd do differently.
Firstly though, I'd like to say you've made a good choice. I spent way too long putting together a spreadsheet to compare various suppliers- the result? They all provide basically the same value, and all require additions and substitutions. So I went to Cleaveland because they had certain must-have tools for me, namely the hand squeezer and dimple dies. Possibly could have saved a few bucks by shopping around more but tools are not really the place to save pennies.
So, just going down the list from top to bottom-
Lightweight air hose kit- excellent, but consider the deluxe kit with 3 hoses and manifold block. It won't be long before you end up with another pneumatic tool or two, for me it was a cleco gun, so I've ended up with another hose and a manifold.
Tungsten Bucking bar- when I got my tools the older steel bars were still included but I chose to delete them. Mistake! I ended up buying the palm size and footed bars. The Tungsten is great but its small size can make it difficult for an inexperienced bucker to hold square against the rivet. We got a lot of slanted shop heads on the VS before trying the wider steel bar and it worked better. The tungsten bar is worth its weight in tight spaces but I think the traditional bars are still worth having.
Back riveting plate- consider the longer one. Its a common error to run out of back riveting plate when riveting rudder stiffeners- don't ask how I know!
Countersink cutter- I got 3 flutes and have had no problems using them in my cordless electric drill.
Common wisdom says lots more 3/32nd clecos! A -14 builder will be better placed to say just how many.
Countersink cage- I've been happy with this one, works just fine. As many have said you'll end up with more than one, so this one should be great to get started and become your second cage if you ever find a better one.
Dimple dies- In the context of all the other tools these are actually cheap, so consider getting the whole set including tank, substructure and the small diameter female.
24" ruler- fine but I also ended up with a 6 inch version and use it daily, much more convenient.
Main squeeze- I saved a $100 and bought the almost identical but rarely mentioned Geezer squeezer. Same design, heavier (read cheaper) materials. It has been absolutely fine, not too heavy at all. I have been comfortable with the decision to defer buying a pneumatic squeezer. This hand squeezer is very easy to use.
3 inch yoke- add a longeron yoke at least. Absolute lifesaver. Many get the 4 inch no hole yoke but that is more of a personal choice based on willingness to use pop rivets in tight spots.
What would I add? I got a rivet cutter. Sure Vans say you can use a seemingly short rivet when they call it out, and I'm sure the pros can successfully squeeze a slightly too long rivet. But for 40 bucks having near perfect size rivets every time has made life so much easier for this inexperienced riveter. you'll also need some longer rivets from vans, the cutter cannot trim a half size off a rivet, it needs to cut a longer one.
Bought the rivet removal tool. Won't get into some tight spots and is only for universal head rivets, but makes drilling the heads off bad 1/8 rivets very quick and easy. A cupped cage centres the bit and then limits the drilling depth so you just get the head off. Again, a great one for the inexperienced!
Pneumatic cleco gun. Search carpal tunnel on these forums.
Sure there's more but can't think of any right now. I feel that most of us probably do our tool purchases the wrong way around. Saving money in the beginning, but adding tools that slowly make life easier as we get more experienced. But the time when we most need those tools that make life easier is right at the beginning when we have no experience!
Good luck with your decisions!
Ed
__________________
Ed Fleming
RV-7- Nearly there!
Harare, Zimbabwe
|

09-26-2014, 05:52 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 427
|
|
from a -12 builder...(started with a -7)
Get at least one additional pair of Cleco Pliers for a total of 2 (minimum). One for each side of the plane. Also comes in handy when "Murphy" hides one of them.
Don't know if it's in their kit, but Mike Lauristen gave me good advice to buy a 4-Flute Ream in sizes 30 and 40. Was handy to true out holes before riveting especially across the wing skins. If building another, I'd get #'s 12, 19, and 1/4" also. Can't help myself, I like round clean holes. (2-flute drill bits sometimes give you a hole with 3 shallow lobes)
Pneumatic squeezer will most definitely give you more consistent results.
I had no problem with the 3-flute Countersink "chatter" unless the pilot was a bit sloppy in the hole.
Don't sweat to much over some of these details and opinions. As you get experience, form your own preferences, screw up and order more parts/tools/fasteners you're going to make the FedEx guy/gal your new BFF anyway.
Main thing is to stick with it, make a little progress each day (very important not to fall off the learning curve) and most of all Have Fun!
(that was a lot for 2-cents. thinking of raising my rates) <grin>
Dave
|

09-27-2014, 06:30 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,516
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by erich weaver
consider a rivet fan and a jig for drilling nut plates. Can you get by without them? Sure, but you will use both many many times and be thankful you had them.
|
+1 on this, the 14 is much better for just assembly than my 7 but these are worth having. Esp the nut plate guide!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z-EDD
I purchased the Cleaveland tool package just over a year ago for my RV-7 build. Can't comment on RV-14 specifics but I'm happy to comment on the Cleaveland package in general, there are a few things I'd do differently.
Firstly though, I'd like to say you've made a good choice. I spent way too long putting together a spreadsheet to compare various suppliers- the result? They all provide basically the same value, and all require additions and substitutions. So I went to Cleaveland because they had certain must-have tools for me, namely the hand squeezer and dimple dies. Possibly could have saved a few bucks by shopping around more but tools are not really the place to save pennies.
So, just going down the list from top to bottom-
Lightweight air hose kit- excellent, but consider the deluxe kit with 3 hoses and manifold block. It won't be long before you end up with another pneumatic tool or two, for me it was a cleco gun, so I've ended up with another hose and a manifold.
Tungsten Bucking bar- when I got my tools the older steel bars were still included but I chose to delete them. Mistake! I ended up buying the palm size and footed bars. The Tungsten is great but its small size can make it difficult for an inexperienced bucker to hold square against the rivet. We got a lot of slanted shop heads on the VS before trying the wider steel bar and it worked better. The tungsten bar is worth its weight in tight spaces but I think the traditional bars are still worth having.
Back riveting plate- consider the longer one. Its a common error to run out of back riveting plate when riveting rudder stiffeners- don't ask how I know!
ABSOLUTELY!!
Countersink cutter- I got 3 flutes and have had no problems using them in my cordless electric drill.
Common wisdom says lots more 3/32nd clecos! A -14 builder will be better placed to say just how many.
Countersink cage- I've been happy with this one, works just fine. As many have said you'll end up with more than one, so this one should be great to get started and become your second cage if you ever find a better one.
Dimple dies- In the context of all the other tools these are actually cheap, so consider getting the whole set including tank, substructure and the small diameter female.
24" ruler- fine but I also ended up with a 6 inch version and use it daily, much more convenient.
Main squeeze- I saved a $100 and bought the almost identical but rarely mentioned Geezer squeezer. Same design, heavier (read cheaper) materials. It has been absolutely fine, not too heavy at all. I have been comfortable with the decision to defer buying a pneumatic squeezer. This hand squeezer is very easy to use.
3 inch yoke- add a longeron yoke at least. Absolute lifesaver. Many get the 4 inch no hole yoke but that is more of a personal choice based on willingness to use pop rivets in tight spots.
What would I add? I got a rivet cutter. Sure Vans say you can use a seemingly short rivet when they call it out, and I'm sure the pros can successfully squeeze a slightly too long rivet. But for 40 bucks having near perfect size rivets every time has made life so much easier for this inexperienced riveter. you'll also need some longer rivets from vans, the cutter cannot trim a half size off a rivet, it needs to cut a longer one.
Bought the rivet removal tool. Won't get into some tight spots and is only for universal head rivets, but makes drilling the heads off bad 1/8 rivets very quick and easy. A cupped cage centres the bit and then limits the drilling depth so you just get the head off. Again, a great one for the inexperienced!
Pneumatic cleco gun. Search carpal tunnel on these forums.
Sure there's more but can't think of any right now. I feel that most of us probably do our tool purchases the wrong way around. Saving money in the beginning, but adding tools that slowly make life easier as we get more experienced. But the time when we most need those tools that make life easier is right at the beginning when we have no experience!
Good luck with your decisions!
Ed
|
I did not find a need for the pneumatic cleco gun, but would not do without my pneumatic squeezer. I have Avery hand squeezer, so the same yokes are used. I can hold/set the pneumatic squeezer more precisely than the hand one, and have a hand free to hold delicate or difficult work.
Ditto on the countersinks, three flute rarely chatters, and I have a guideless single hole countersink for the plexi. I use it on aluminum rarely.
Oh - Cleco pliers, -either get 6 or just one. If you can't keep up with one, two won't do either. Stick it in your apron/pocket, it's a habit.
Happy building. A good tool set will let you concentrate on the work.
__________________
Bill
RV-7
Lord Kelvin:
“I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about,
and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you
cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge
is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind.”
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:48 PM.
|