Eggenfellner LSA Engine

[cjensen]

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot

I keep hearing about the Jabiru? How much $$? How many flying?

I'm not sure how many are flying, but there a lot. If the Sonex guys are not using the Aero Vee, they are using the Jabiru. Here's a link to the data page for the 2200. Cost is $10,900

Jabiru 2200

There's a list on that page of airplanes they provide installation kits for as well.

[Deuskid]

The Jabiru 330, 120 HP is used in the Lightening

Empty Weight 800 lbs
Gross Weight 1425 lbs
Fuel cap. 23 gal
Endurance 4 hours
Range 700 sm
Max Speed 190 mph
Cruise Speed 175 mph
Vne 208

175 mph at a little over 5 gal/hr ...

can burn mogas or 100ll
aircooled
auto spark plugs...

what is not to like with an engine that can do that. I believe it would be a good mate for a -9/-9A.

ymmv,

John

[Mel]

The Indus Thorpedo S-LSA (modernized version of the old Thorp T-211) uses the Jabiru. And several of the Legend Cubs (also S-LSA) use the Jabiru.

[rv6ejguy]

Engine cost is certainly a big deal in the LSA would but so is weight. The cost of a clean sheet design will likely be in the Rotax 912/914 range due to the limited production numbers and development costs.

Conti is supplying several LSA makers with new O-200s. These engines are in the 190-220 lb. range so also a bit heavy for an RV12. The Rotax engines are light (around 50 lbs. lighter) because they are geared. Rpms don't weigh anything. Their combo of air and liquid cooling plus being geared produces a higher power to weight ratio than anything else out there in this class, hence their popularity and the reason Van's chose it for the RV12. The price is high but that is the price.

In order to get costs down, some sort of high volume basic engine must be used. Unfortunately, weight will almost certainly be higher than the Rotax so there is a tradeoff here. Cost to weight.

The Eggenfellner engine should be competitive in the markets where the O-200's weight is acceptable. We don't know what the cost is.

Many people interested in LSAs do not seem to be interested in manual mixture control, carb heat and magnetos. We have been approached by several companies to supply FADECs for various engines including the O-200. One should start ground running soon.

The Jabiru 2200, well early models did not have a good rep at all and their bigger models are still having issues. Are the problems solved? Will these things make it to 1500 hours without being opened up? Too soon to tell in my view. Any higher time Jab owners out there, please comment.

[the_other_dougreeves]

Originally Posted by rv6ejguy

Many people interested in LSAs do not seem to be interested in manual mixture control, carb heat and magnetos. We have been approached by several companies to supply FADECs for various engines including the O-200. One should start ground running soon.

The Jabiru 2200, well early models did not have a good rep at all and their bigger models are still having issues. Are the problems solved? Will these things make it to 1500 hours without being opened up? Too soon to tell in my view. Any higher time Jab owners out there, please comment.

Interesting you mention mixture control and the J2200. Every LSA I've flown has no mixture control. Both the Rotax and Jabiru use Bing altitude- compensating carbs.

As for the reliability and livibility of the Jabiru, I have ~30 hours in the Thorpedo and found the 3300 to be a good engine - no operational problems related to the engine. We did have temp issues in the summer here in Big D, but those were related to the installation, and most piston airplanes are going to have problems in 100+ heat.

The early Jabirus did not have hydraulic automatic lifter adjustment - it had to be done every 25 hours. Needless to say, that got old, and the new engines have hydraulic adjusters.

As far as I know, there aren't any high-time Jabirus in the US. N211LS is the high-time Thorpedo out there, and it's only about 400 hours. OTOH, the Rotax 912 series is well known and there are many high-time units out there, although more in other countries than the US. Remember that the original DA20 Katana used the 80 Hp 912.

Doug

[rv6ejguy]

Originally Posted by the_other_dougreeves

Interesting you mention mixture control and the J2200. Every LSA I've flown has no mixture control. Both the Rotax and Jabiru use Bing altitude- compensating carbs.

Doug

Thanks for your reply. Sounds like the small Jabs are getting better as you'd expect with experience. Competition and choices in the market are usually good things.

While many people don't want carbs at all these days, the Bings seem to do the job reliably and with less fuss than traditional aircraft carbs like most O-200s are fitted with. We have had many people contact us over the years about fitting EFI to Rotax and Jabiru engines. One company did test EFI on the Jab and it ran well but the engine never lasted more than a few hours before more valve and head problems came up. This was about 3 years ago. They gave up on it finally because they were not getting good support from Jabiru. We have supplied a few units for Rotax 912/914 engines as well.

The O-200s have seen as much as a 25% reduction in fuel flow at the same TAS with EFI over the carb which shows how poor the original carb/ intake is on these engines.

[the_other_dougreeves]

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot

The no medical thing is a red herring. You really need one or you are grounded with "any known medical condition" you are aware of. I don't think the $80 bucks every two years for a Third class medical is killing GA.

I have to disagree on the medical issue. If you have one, great, good for you. If you can't get one, then suddenly it's a very large and personal issue.

I think that the key question for me is "Can you safely fly LSA even if you don't quality for a third-class (or higher) medical?" For me, that answer is yes. This is, in fact, a key part of the SP / LSA rule. I don't think anyone has said that the cost of the medical is the problem.

If you hold a valid DL, the question for SP then becomes "Well, PIC, are you fit to fly?" In a regulatory sense, this takes the form of FAR 61.53:

Federal Aviation Regulation 61.53
Prohibition on operations during medical deficiency.

(a) Operations that require a medical certificate.

Except as provided for in paragraph (b) of this section, a person who holds a current medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter shall not act as pilot in command, or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember, while that person:
(1) Knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would make the person unable to meet the requirements for the medical certificate necessary for the pilot operation; or
(2) Is taking medication or receiving other treatment for a medical condition that results in the person being unable to meet the requirements for the medical certificate necessary for the pilot operation.

(b) Operations that do not require a medical certificate.

For operations provided for in Sec. 61.23(b) of this part, a person shall not act as pilot in command, or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember, while that person knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would make the person unable to operate the aircraft in a safe manner.

Ok, there it is. The standard for "known conditions" is different for PP / CFI / ATP than it is for SP. For SP, the question posed by the rule isn't "do you have any conditions that would exclude you from getting a medical", rather it's "can you safely act as PIC from a medical point of view?" There is a big difference between the two.

We should all be seriously asking the medical part of IMSAFE before every flight. The difference is that SP don't need a medical to go along with your decision and aren't bound to the same limits of self assessment - it is only related to one's ability to perform as PIC, not whether one meets certain medical criteria.

Will others disagree of our self-assessments? Sometimes. However, the self-certification medical issue is, IMHO, no different than any other decision as PIC. Ultimately, we are responsible for the safety of the flight, whether that involves medical conditions or medication, fatigue, weather, route, fuel planning, etc.

[the_other_dougreeves]

Originally Posted by rv6ejguy

We have had many people contact us over the years about fitting EFI to Rotax and Jabiru engines. One company did test EFI on the Jab and it ran well but the engine never lasted more than a few hours before more valve and head problems came up. This was about 3 years ago. They gave up on it finally because they were not getting good support from Jabiru. We have supplied a few units for Rotax 912/914 engines as well.

The O-200s have seen as much as a 25% reduction in fuel flow at the same TAS with EFI over the carb which shows how poor the original carb/ intake is on these engines.

I'd love to see a O-200 with FADEC and EFI. If I remember right, this is in the works. Wasn't one displayed at OSH?

[Deuskid]

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot

<snip>

We have had kit planes and that have met the LSA's spec planes for years, but they where never real popular: Kitfox, Sonex, Sonerai II. The KR2 and VariEZ make a nice LSA, but they are too fast. Existing factory planes that meet the LSA spec: Luscombe, Aeronca, Cessna (140) and Taylorcraft are great planes but somewhat long in the tooth. Still I would look for one to buy or fix up before I bought a new plastic LSA for $95,000. A nice old C140 cost a fraction of that. LSA's cost are crazy money for a tiny two seat plane with a go slow mission. ... <snip>

from the Matronic's Lightning forum:

quote="pete(at)flylightning.net"]Hello John,

The Lightning can be equipped with IFR instruments and an autopilot.
Cockpit is 44 inches wide.
There are 4 flying and 26 sold to date.

It is not within the rules to "convert" a non LSA compliant plane to a LSA compliant one as the rule states the aircraft must have been "originally certificated and continuously operated" within the parameters of light sport to be flown by a pilot with light sport privileges.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Pete Krotje
Arion Aircraft, LLC

--[/quote]

Arion Aircraft is the company that builds the Lightning.

I'm not certain the buy and fix up is an option.

the bolded is my emphasis to Pete's post

John

[rv6ejguy]

Originally Posted by the_other_dougreeves

I'd love to see a O-200 with FADEC and EFI. If I remember right, this is in the works. Wasn't one displayed at OSH?

We are working with one company who uses the new build O-200 in their LSA to supply a FADEC. They are currently fitting the EFI hardware to the engine and should be ordering the electronics soon to start ground and flight testing in 2007.

Others may be involved in similar projects that I'm not aware of.

We generally don't comment on specifics until the product hits the market unless our partners ok that.
There has been a big rush in the last 12 months from many different engine suppliers and airframers to get EFI/ FADECs under development. This would seem to be a coming thing for all classes of light aircraft engines, something like the demand for glass panel stuff.

We have had a number of people asking about systems for their Sport Class racers and even one Red Bull team recently.