VFR on top

[johnny stick]

I have to chime in here. I am a VFR pilot and was pursuing my IFR rating so I could get in and out of the LA basin with the June Gloom. I never finished, and will not fly if there is a chance of IFR.

But, the IFR training made a much better pilot. For those who have no interest in IFR, I urge you to just get some IFR instruction; it did indeed make me a better pilot.

I did not know what I didn't know, until I took some instruction. JMHO

[rockwoodrv9]

The question isn't if taking IFR training will make you a better pilot, of course many hours of study and instruction will make you a better pilot.

The question is if doing the same number of hours studying and flight instruction on basic pilot skills as you would getting your IFR ticket, would that make you a better pilot too. Again, of course it will.

Study for an IFR ticket or basic flight skills will make you a better pilot. I have no plans to fly IFR at any time. I won't even fly at night. Those are my limits. For me and many other pilots, pilot skills instruction will make me a better pilot than learning how to file a flight plan.

I am in no way minimizing the value of an IFR rating. If anyone has any plans to fly where there might be clouds or at night, I might suggest you are crazy not having IFR training. The argument on who is a better pilot is a joke.

The pilot who is trained to not fly past their own personal limits is the better pilot.

[Arlen]

And, it depends on what kind of flying you plan on doing.

While I enjoy flying VFR right here in Central Florida, the majority of my hours are cross country. (I flew to the 4 corners of the USA last month.... >8000 miles in 47 hours, and 6 of those hours were IMC).

When you need to cover a few hundred miles, there are many days where the climb to cruise altitude or part of the en route course or the descent or approach into the destination involve some IMC.....and just couldn't happen if VFR.

For me (and only speaking for me), I couldn't do much of the flying I do without the instrument rating.

But, many pilots don't do the type of flying that I do. We each do it our own way, doing what we like to do...

[foka4]

Lots of good perspectives and advice as usual. I usually avoid posting opinions on religious topics, but what the heck. Here's my take:

I decided to get an instrument rating BECAUSE I chose to own an RV. To me, the instrument rating lets you get a lot more value out of these aircraft because they're so darn capable. It simply doesn't take too long at 160+ kts to encounter weather and have to make educated decisions about it. I felt I could make the best decisions by understanding the system, knowing how to use it, and having the option to use it when warranted.

Compared to the investment I have in my RV, the cost of the IFR ticket wasn't insurmountable. And since I fly regularly, the incremental cost of maintaining IFR proficiency doesn't break the bank, either.

In my case, the instrument ticket really did make me a better pilot, and the education has paid great dividends not only in flying in the soup, but in my VFR flying as well. I really do get a lot more value/fun/bang-for-the-buck out of my RV as an instrument-rated pilot.

M

[jpowell13]

I'm rated but only have about 25 hrs actual IMC in the log book and most of that was before GPS. I got my proficiency back a few months ago, and the plane equipped for mild IFR. On my last two long CC's I used the rating twice. Each time it was for departing airports with 700' or higher ceilings and VFR near by. The ability to make those departures kept us from having to cancel reservations and make major changes to our itinerary. The frustration level starts to build up pretty fast if you're stuck somewhere for more than one extra night.

Seems to me, the hardest part of IFR is those first few trips into the clouds without your instructor in the right seat. The problem is you don't know what you don't know. You really have to take it slowly with respect to conditions. I still want my destination to be in easy reach and forecast to be VFR before I'll go (unless it's my home airport.)

Controllers tend to be very helpful if you're up front with them about your experience level and circumstances. IMC is serious business. I find myself still flying hours after parking the plane when I've been in the clouds. But "being in the system" with all those pros (old and young) and completing an actual IFR flight to a new destination is a trip.

John

[Skykingbob]

Originally Posted by johnny stick

I have to chime in here. I am a VFR pilot and was pursuing my IFR rating so I could get in and out of the LA basin with the June Gloom. I never finished, and will not fly if there is a chance of IFR.

But, the IFR training made a much better pilot. For those who have no interest in IFR, I urge you to just get some IFR instruction; it did indeed make me a better pilot.

I did not know what I didn't know, until I took some instruction. JMHO

Well put Johnny! That's exactly the point!

As an instructor holding all cfi certs, it really isn't the instrument rating that is the danger.....its Aeronautical Decision Making (ADM) that gets people in trouble(IFR or VFR). Flying into situations that they should never have. Sure there can be the occasion where should wx or other things change for the worse....that's why ADM is so important to deal with changing situations and err to the side of caution hopefully!

I called a friend the other day and left a voicemail. He called back later saying he was at a funeral for his daughters friend's father. Here is how her father passed away. My friend said he had eight children....and stated that he thought the man possibly was an air traffic controller???(His words...not mine!)

I found that the students I have trained for the instrument rating has really made them more savvy on wx....a lot less intimidated with ATC....and more confidence when the the weather mans forecast of cavu turns to clear and 3 miles in smoke or haze.

If you look at the stats......you will find many accidents caused from a non-instrument rated pilot flying into instrument conditions(how many would have survived with even skills a little rusty).....don't think you will find many with instrument rated pilot accidents due to flying inadvertently into VFR conditions. Just observations and thoughts over the years!

It's called continuing education.....and it beats basket weaving classes! Self improvement....for whatever reason is usually a good thing!

[N64GH]

[IMG][/IMG]


We flew our longest RV vacation ever this year. All VFR but being a IFR pilot it sure would have been nice and safer to have that IFR ticket on a few occasions.

We went from SoCal to OSH to the Florida Keys and back to SoCal. Most of the time no big deal. A few times marginal visibility and landing back home I have decided to work on getting an IFR ticket. Here is why.

Leaving KYKN to KEAU there were clouds en route however KEAU was reporting clear and forecast to stay clear. The direct route it looked like there would be a short time we were "over the top" but to the left or right airports were reporting clear or scattered. We decided to fly above the scattered clouds departing KYKN. Well it was not to long before we were over a solid layer of clouds. We had plenty of fuel and according to XM we had a way to get down flying a short distance to the left or right. We ended up over the top for over an hour. I started doubting what XM was telling me as things seemed to be getting worse not better the closer we got to KEAU. About 20 minutes from KEAU it cleared up and we landed with scattered clouds and unlimited vis. I was not exactly happy or relaxed for that hour plus over the top. We were legal but we were smart is the question I was asking myself. For the first time I started thinking IFR training might not be a bad idea. Just knowing I had an option of getting down through that stuff if there was a problem vs a 20 to 30 minute flight to find a way down VFR would have gone a long way to a relaxing flight vs one wondering if I made a huge mistake.

The next situation was departing OSH and heading down to X51. From OSH to 3M7 was flown in legal VFR but not by much. All along the route airports were reporting clear and vis of 5 to 10 miles. I learned that "clear and 10 visibility" does not necessarily mean clear and 10 at altitude. Still not sure what the heck I missed but this was not a fun flight because I kept asking myself again what did I miss and did I mess up. It eventually cleared up and we made it to 3M7 with no problems. By the 3M7 is a GREAT place. Cheep fuel great folks and it sounds like a great place to stay if you need it and a car. I want to go back just to stay at the "cabin" they rent out it sounds like a nice place to stay with the wife. Back to my point having an IFR ticket in my pocket and current sure would have made me more relaxed.

The next hop that has me thinking hard of getting an IFR rating was from 3M7 to a planed stop at KAHN. Left 3M7 in beautiful conditions with some pretty white puffy clouds against a beautiful blue sky. Then about half way to Athens it started to get uncomfortable again aka Visibility in haze of 4 to 5 miles and again airports reporting clear and good visibility. It appeared to be no big deal with plenty of outs and marginal but flyable VFR, wrong. Around KDZJ the visibility sucked (reported in the area 10 miles) and the clouds started closing in and it started to rain a lot, XM showed outs but the eyes were saying not sure. Visibility was 4 or 5 miles in haze (same as most of the day sense leaving OSH) but the horizon became ... well ... not distinct and there were mountains in front of us (compared to mountains out here in the west these are nothing hardly deserving to be called mountains. However they are still hard dirt in the way). I looked to the left and behind and the horizon was better but still not distinct. For a second I thought about pushing and holding my "mode" button in my Trio to have it turn us around. Then I looked over my wife's shoulder to the right and nice clear horizon and good vis behind us, cool! We turned around and ended up at KRZR. KRZR has long and wide runway which was a welcome sight after making what was obviously not the best decision to continue when the WX started to go down hill. We spent the night there. By the way another great airport and FBO. They gave us a vehicle recommended a place to eat which turned out to be the best BBQ we have ever had. After lunch WX still sucked I was still mad at myself so we stayed. Again with IFR we probabily pushed on the WX was not that bad but it was not smart VFR WX (legal but not smart). With that IFR ticket I would not have been nervous or mad at myself.

The last straw for me deciding working on IFR would be worth it was from KRZR to KEUH. Again legal but not the best VFR situation. Stations along the way reporting VFR there were choices for an "out" not far away from our course line and plenty of fuel. Over the top for over an hour went to scattered not far from our destination and legal but not great visibility at destination. Again we found EUH to be a nice stop. The runway surface is nothing to brag about but it is long and wide, the folks are nice, the fuel is cheep and there is a BBQ within feet of the FBO (we wanted to make one more hop so we did not stay and eat). But I arrived not exactly relaxed or happy because the best "out" would have been an IFR ticket that I do not have.

For the rest of the trip no big deals. But when the choice needed to be made over the top or bounce around under we usually chose under. The few times we chose over as soon as it started to close in we went under. It was a bumpy and hot ride home from X51 to SoCal.


Long rambling explanation to say flying around the country can be done VFR but right now in my mind I want that IFR ticket for my comfort level and a additional way out in my tool box.

By the way had we needed to descend through the clouds which from all I read is 99% of the time deadly for the VFR pilot I would without question or hesitation have declared an emergency. We have a single axis AP so our odds might be 50/50 descending through the clouds. I do not like those odds. I would rather be explaining to the FAA what I did and what I learned vs killing my wife because my pride would not let me declare an emergency. To me is a VFR pilot in IFR conditions is without question an emergency.

Any way my take on IFR. Yea ya do not need it but comfort and safety level would sure improve with it.