4 point vs. 5 point belts...

[pilotpip]

I've flown a variety of aircraft with 4 and 5 point harnesses. I would go with 5 points because of all the reasons above. They are much more secure and keep the belts where they belong. 4 points will ride up, especially if your shoulder straps have inertia reels.

[digidocs]

Is it possible to have a 5 point harness in the front seat of a 10?

The back has all of the attachments, but I'm not sure how you'd handle the crotch strap up front.

David

[ColoRv]

There are many good reasons why 4 points aren't legal in race cars. If ever you really need them...a 4 point can kill you. I'd rather leave the constant speed prop off than the anti sub belt.

[esco]

I'm replacing my 4pts with 5 at the next opportunity.

Sam's post got me thinking, and I checked the link to the SEMA safety foundation document on
installation, maintenance, and operations of (driving) safety belts.

Two items caught my eye:

"...Restraints must be maintained, inspected, and replaced or rewebbed
every two years because they degenerate from exposure to the elements and over time.
Prolonged exposure of seat belt webbing and thread to sunlight can cause degradation of
the fibers and loss of restraint integrity.

"...The webbing used in motorsports restraints is typically made with DuPont Nylon
6-6 or a similar product. According to the data, the webbing loses about half of its strength in
one year. With this kind of rapid deterioration, it is obvious why
replacing the webbing every two years is essential to driver safety..."

[JonJay]

I am sure somebody can find some real world example showing death or injury could have been avoided in an aircraft accident if a crotch strap was in place vs 4 point?
Anybody?

5 point are much more comfortable, and, theoretically, safer. However, I have never seen any actual examples of it. Let's face it. Most accidents have two outcomes. Those that walk away with very little injury regardless of equipment, and those that didn't stand a chance too.

Let's not compare race car driving to flying airplanes. If we do, lets compare the hundreds of passenger cars that crash everyday. I have never seen a passenger car with a crotch strap.

That said, I wish I had them in my RV. That is on my upgrade wish list.

[comfortcat]

Thanx Jon.

I think the point here is the way the seat belt is attached and the way you sit in a 9. My Skyhawk had 3 point belts and they were fine. The seat was high and the lap belt could be fastened low across the lap with no problem. And yes, you can ask me how I know a three point belt can save your life.

The 9 is different, where you actually sit on the floor. The extra belt is to position the lap belt, not really to supply more restraint. At least I HOPE not! OUCH!

OK, OK, a 5 point for me!

Dkb

Originally Posted by JonJay

I am sure somebody can find some real world example showing death or injury could have been avoided in an aircraft accident if a crotch strap was in place vs 4 point?
Anybody?

5 point are much more comfortable, and, theoretically, safer. However, I have never seen any actual examples of it. Let's face it. Most accidents have two outcomes. Those that walk away with very little injury regardless of equipment, and those that didn't stand a chance too.

Let's not compare race car driving to flying airplanes. If we do, lets compare the hundreds of passenger cars that crash everyday. I have never seen a passenger car with a crotch strap.

That said, I wish I had them in my RV. That is on my upgrade wish list.

[luddite42]

Originally Posted by scrollF4

I stuck with the 4-point because it worked so well for me over 2000+ hours in the F-4.

How many crashes in that time? The only reason to have a crotch strap is to keep the lap belt low when your body is thrown into the shoulder harness during a crash. In flight and absent crashing, even the shoulder harness serves no real purpose. Despite widespread beliefs, shoulder harnesses don't even serve a purpose for aerobatics...exept in airplanes that have extreme reclined seating (Giles, MX). Then they help keep your torso in place during negative G. So aside from crash considerations, a 2-point (lap belt) is all you need in any airplane. Once you consider crashworthiness, I know of no arguments against a 5-point being better.

[ColoRv]

Originally Posted by JonJay

I am sure somebody can find some real world example showing death or injury could have been avoided in an aircraft accident if a crotch strap was in place vs 4 point?
Anybody?

5 point are much more comfortable, and, theoretically, safer. However, I have never seen any actual examples of it. Let's face it. Most accidents have two outcomes. Those that walk away with very little injury regardless of equipment, and those that didn't stand a chance too.

Let's not compare race car driving to flying airplanes. If we do, lets compare the hundreds of passenger cars that crash everyday. I have never seen a passenger car with a crotch strap.

That said, I wish I had them in my RV. That is on my upgrade wish list.

Not comparing RV's to race cars, but if you're looking for that data...the race car world has it...and a lot of it. Nothing at all theoretical about it. 5 points are much safer.

[Sam Buchanan]

Originally Posted by luddite42

How many crashes in that time? The only reason to have a crotch strap is to keep the lap belt low when your body is thrown into the shoulder harness during a crash. In flight and absent crashing, even the shoulder harness serves no real purpose. Despite widespread beliefs, shoulder harnesses don't even serve a purpose for aerobatics...exept in airplanes that have extreme reclined seating (Giles, MX). Then they help keep your torso in place during negative G. So aside from crash considerations, a 2-point (lap belt) is all you need in any airplane. Once you consider crashworthiness, I know of no arguments against a 5-point being better.

You may be correct...theoretically...but I have found being able to cinch the shoulder harness down tight because the crotch belt is keeping the lap belt in place really allows me to stay connected to the seat during turbulence (and my head off the canopy)...more so than without the crotch belt.

The turbulence I encountered that prompted the installation of the 5-pt racing harness felt a lot like a two-minute crash......

[JonJay]

Originally Posted by ColoRv

Not comparing RV's to race cars, but if you're looking for that data...the race car world has it...and a lot of it. Nothing at all theoretical about it. 5 points are much safer.

...only when you need them
It makes sense, but, sadly, as with many safety discussions here, nobody can produce any real life statistics that they save lives or prevent injury in aviation accidents...., yet....