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01-31-2014, 09:28 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 1,499
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TJ,
Sorry if I was a bit obtuse. You are correct that the GPS in the Freeflight product is TSO'd. However, it's not included at the $3,600 price, it is a $1,800 option in the product. That was the basis of my statement that in an experimental, you can wait a few years and hopefully get a solution for less than $1,800.
I'm not expert on the requirements for the panel controller of the device, but the marketing literature calls the panel controller a "Key Component in the FreeFlight UAT ADS-B Transmitter System, used to control the FDL-978-TX." If you have an ADS-B device in the plane, you must have a way to turn it on/off if ATC asks, to stop altitude encoding, and to IDENT. Not sure how you achieve these requirements in a plane without the controller, which is why I assumed it was required. It also isn't drawn as optional in any of their block diagrams.
As for using the TSO'd GPS in the box for an EFIS, IFR primary navigation in an experimental requires a IFR Navigator, not just a certified GPS position source. In TSO terms, you need a C129 or C146 device, but a GPS position sensor is C145. The idea here is that you need all the software involved to be certified, not just where you are and how fast you are going.
Dynon wrote a position paper on this a year ago if you are more interested in the details:
http://dynonavionics.com/cgi-bin/yab...m=1362597418/0
--Ian Jordan
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01-31-2014, 11:11 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Longmont, CO
Posts: 215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynonsupport
Remember that you still need a transponder. So while this gets you your ADS-B out, it doesn't satisfy the transponder requirement.
So, for $3,600 you can either install this box, cut another hole in your panel, and keep your current Mode-C transponder (assuming it's a modern digital transponder that is compatible.)
Or, with basically any brand of experimental EFIS today, you can buy a $2,200 fully certified Mode-S transponder, and a sub-$1,000 ADS-B IN box. That's $400+ less, and you can sell your old transponder to someone in Canada for $1,200. Plus, no cutting new holes in your panel and adding circuit breakers to your panel.
In both cases you will eventually need a TSO'd GPS, but why buy that today? You can get all the benefits of the system up until 2020 with a non-certified GPS, and odds are good that a TSO'd GPS will be less than $1,800 within the next 6 years.
This is actually a really good deal for our certified friends, since a TSO'd GPS for $1,800 is a smokin' deal in 2014, and with install costs and other issues, this may be cheaper than replacing the transponder in a plane.
Obviously we're biased over here at Dynon, but that won't stop us from offering our opinion  Freeflight makes some great gear, but at these prices, you are paying for the STC that you don't need in an experimental. The experimental EFIS companies have been offering simpler and more affordable ADS-B IN and OUT for years already.
--Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics
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So Ian, is there something you'd like to share with us about a potential sub $1800 TSO'd GPS?
David
__________________
David Dalton
Longmont, CO
RV-7 Complete,
Flies like a dream!
Lifetime VAF Member
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01-31-2014, 02:35 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 1,499
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Nope, I'm definitely not trying to hint at anything. All I am pointing out is that the ADS-B mandate is 2,160 days away, and there are a lot of companies and people trying to make ADS-B more affordable, so some people may wish to wait until 2020 is closer to equip with fully rule-compliant systems.
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01-31-2014, 06:10 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: ____
Posts: 829
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Just to understand, if one remains outside of Class B or C airspace, there will be no requirement for ADS-B in the USA?
I look back 7 years and there are a few TSO'd GPS that have become no longer supported by their manufacturer. The same is true with a few EFIS units, both TSO'd and on the sport grade side also. The cost will no doubt squeeze a few people out of sport aviation and general aviation.
The next 6 going forward should be interesting.
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01-31-2014, 06:29 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 1,499
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After 2020, you need ADS-B anywhere you need a transponder:
1) Above 10,000 ft MSL (excluding that airspace below 2,500 feet agl.)
2) Mode-C Veil around Class B
3) In Class B
4) In Class C
So, it's #1 that will get most RV's, even if they just fly out in rural areas but actually want to go somewhere, and then #2 really restricts you from any major area even if you don't enter Class B.
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01-31-2014, 08:01 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynonsupport
After 2020, you need ADS-B anywhere you need a transponder:
1) Above 10,000 ft MSL (excluding that airspace below 2,500 feet agl.)
2) Mode-C Veil around Class B
3) In Class B
4) In Class C
So, it's #1 that will get most RV's, even if they just fly out in rural areas but actually want to go somewhere, and then #2 really restricts you from any major area even if you don't enter Class B.
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That is, anywhere you currently need a MODE C transponder....
Although it doesn't happen that often, RV's can get into the flight levels. There, you must have the mode S-ES, not the UAT, sstarting 2020.
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02-01-2014, 09:43 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: fort myers fl
Posts: 949
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I asked dynon that exact question at SnF. they said, "we have six years, we are looking in to it." I am hoping that by the time the mandate rolls around that there will be a few cheaper options, including dynon, to comply with this stupid mandate.
bob burns
RV-4
N82RB
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02-01-2014, 10:27 AM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
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Back to the original question...............
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S
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I guess the answer is no.
Lots of thread drift here, as usual-------but lots of good info being exchanged too.
Thanks for the responses.
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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03-27-2014, 06:45 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 5,687
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Update on this tread, new promo pricing announced on the certified FDL-978-XVR
Waco, Texas, March 26, 2014 -- FreeFlight Systems announced today special, time-limited promotional pricing for its RANGR FDL-978-XVR ADS-B Universal Access Transceiver (UAT). Pricing for orders placed and delivered by Dec. 31, 2014 is $3,995, a savings of $1,500 off of the $5,495 regular system price. The specially priced system comes with an internal WAAS GPS and includes the optional $350 WiFi module at no additional charge.
Feel free to contact me if you need more info.
__________________
Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)
EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
Dynamic Prop Balancing, Pitot-Static Altmeter/Transponder Certification
FAA Certified Repair Station, AP/IA/FCC GROL, EAA Technical Counselor
Authorized Garmin G3X Dealer/Installer
RV7A built 2004, 1700+ hrs, New Titan IO-370, Bendix Mags
Website: ExpAircraft.com, Email: walt@expaircraft.com, Cell: 972-746-5154
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04-24-2014, 01:09 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rzbill
I find the outlook for that to be poor since it would require the addition of strict database management in the EFIS just as the databases are managed in the TSO'd navigation systems (Garmin et al). Maybe a Jep supported non-editable database for our Efises? (Efii??  )
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I don't understand this part of the TSO rules. In the old days, it was the pilot's responsibility to make sure they had up to date JEPP charts. Wouldn't making sure your EFIS database is up to date fall into the same category?
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
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