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  #1  
Old 11-20-2013, 06:02 PM
RickWoodall's Avatar
RickWoodall RickWoodall is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 1,472
Talking Near collision with US military C130!

I saw on here a long time ago that there was a place to log issues with military planes, near misses etc. Anyone mind passing that along?

My wife and I were on a vfr trip cruising on a/p at the correct vfr alt in uncontrolled air. We noticed a plane off our left wing, miles away...it seemed to turn and head towards our destination CYQG. It was 2:40 pm we were heading sw. A little while later we noticed it heading across the lake, and assumed it was US training out of Selfridge ANG. No issue, at this time of day and direction the sun and glare makes vision on the horizon a little tough. About 5 min later, we noticed it off our front right, ahead of the wing. Looked and looked, actually discussed what it was doing and if we could see the direction it was going. HOLLY **** !!! ITS COMING AT US. No really, its coming right at us from front corner and fast. I dropped 1500' and veered to my left, down and away. It happened so fast, I cannot be sure but I think he actually pulled up and to his left.
I am not chicken or a nervous flyer at all. I have flown to osh, sunnfun, blah blah. I have flown through more busy airspace than most of my buddies and enjoy the challenge. This was dangerous.

Scared my wife a lot...as this was a big big plane C-130 I believe and it was at exact same alt and we would have been very close to a collision if I hadn't acted fast. I took a few hours to ponder this today.
The issue is, I was on mode C squawking 1200. I was at 4500ft heading sw. I was on autopilot and any radar or tcas would have no issue finding and understanding my path. I had been monitoring the only airport nearby, nothing of interest being broadcast.

Further....this was in CANADIAN air. I have no issue with military training I love watching it. BUT...I simply don't believe its possible he was toying with me (warthogs have been known to come up and pull beside)...this was a huge aircraft moving fast on a collision coarse. So, I have to assume he didn't know I was there. Well if that's true, Cleveland centre is IFR boss in that area..and I just cant see how this happened and why he would not have spaced himself out enough to fall in behind me. Is it possible someone seriously dropped the ball.

Do I just drop it....or do I file an issue somewhere? Seriously, I have worried about birds, student pilots, bad pilots etc...never considered being smashed out of the sky by a C130
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Rick Woodall C-GSTT "ghost"
9a -TMX io-320, catto three blade, dual dynon hdx with a/p. 900+ hrs in 8 yrs flying.

Flew to Osh 11,12,15,17,19. SNF 2013. West to Cali /Washington/Vancouver/crossed the Rockies north to Red Deer east to Moosonee and over to maritimes. South to Jekyll Isl, cedar key, and Key West etc. 7 trips and 17 islands of the Bahamas. Flown turtles and dogs for Pilots n Paws too. Love our Rv's
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  #2  
Old 11-20-2013, 06:41 PM
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LAMPSguy LAMPSguy is offline
 
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Location: Pensacola, FL
Posts: 377
Default I was not there

I was not there, but I will make a comment on one aspect. I have seen/heard many people make comments that show how little they know/how much they assume about military capabilities. ***I am not making excuses for them, etc, just offering one tidbit that I wish more people knew***

You mentioned TCAS and you mentioned radar.

While we should file IFR to the max extent practicable, we also need practice VFR. So, just like in a relaxing GA fun flight, we fly VFR on occasion in uncontrolled airspace, meaning we are talking to nobody, just like you. So, in that case radar means nothing, no advisories, etc. See and avoid, task saturation, hard to see at dusk, etc (I am not saying he didn't screw up).

Second, I for one would love to have all the bells and whistles that every person I meet at air shows thinks I have. Sure, this helicopter is brand new, has radar, sonar, inertial navigation, can carry tons of different ordnance, etc...but guess what? I have TACAN, period. No ILS, No certified GPS for approaches, no TCAS, my radar is for maritime environment (ships/subs in water) not RV-9's in the sky, and it might be broken at this moment, etc.

We do our best with what we have, and I sincerely apologize for what happened to you. I wish more military aviators loved flying as much as you do, but the sad fact is that it is a job for us and many have no interest in GA or flying once we retire. I have to force people to think outside the box WRT how we integrate in the national airspace system...it is OURS (citizens) not ours (military).
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  #3  
Old 11-20-2013, 07:04 PM
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RickWoodall RickWoodall is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 1,472
Default Ok

I understand mistakes get made, no question.....think I have made my share. I am not trying to go after any one person.

What I cant get though is that a Military airport was only 20 miles away and has a tower, a bazillion dollars in planes, surely has radar. This plane was crossing international borders. I simply cannot believe someone wasn't watching a screen and talking. This was not in the middle of Nevada it was just outside of Detroit Michigan and in US and Canadian Airspace back and forth.

Other weird thing, my zaon didn't even chirp. Military stuff doesn't give off bounces that PCAS picks up? Weird events today, its pretty reliable most of the time.

I just wondered what others would say or if they would suggest dropping it, or follow up somehow, even like a Nasa form in case somebody actually would look at the radar tracks or follow up to see how it could have happened.
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Rick Woodall C-GSTT "ghost"
9a -TMX io-320, catto three blade, dual dynon hdx with a/p. 900+ hrs in 8 yrs flying.

Flew to Osh 11,12,15,17,19. SNF 2013. West to Cali /Washington/Vancouver/crossed the Rockies north to Red Deer east to Moosonee and over to maritimes. South to Jekyll Isl, cedar key, and Key West etc. 7 trips and 17 islands of the Bahamas. Flown turtles and dogs for Pilots n Paws too. Love our Rv's

Last edited by RickWoodall : 11-20-2013 at 07:09 PM.
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  #4  
Old 11-20-2013, 07:22 PM
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DonFromTX DonFromTX is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: La Feria Texas
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Default

I see you have a Skyview, apparently no Mode S or ADSB in and out? You would have been warned and able to track its movements if you had. Your situation is EXACTLY why my Skyview does have that capability.
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  #5  
Old 11-20-2013, 07:28 PM
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tc1234c tc1234c is offline
 
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Location: Port Orange, FL
Posts: 1,020
Default See and Avoid . org

Not sure who you can contact. Here is a military funded site that trying to prevent what you just experienced. Maybe you can find an answer there.

http://www.seeandavoid.org/
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  #6  
Old 11-20-2013, 07:48 PM
Kyle Boatright Kyle Boatright is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 4,671
Default

I'd say that see and avoid worked again and move on. Avoiding a midair is the responsibility of both pilots.
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  #7  
Old 11-20-2013, 07:51 PM
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Shotgun Shotgun is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Elizabeth, CO
Posts: 34
Default Glad you are ok

Would it have been different if it was another RV you almost hit? The reason I ask is because two VFR aircraft don't get separation in uncontrolled airspace. When we leave some of the MOAs or restricted airspace we are VFR (F-16) and usually get picked up for flight following, but some times they are too busy. If the C-130 wasn't talking to anyone it is simple see and avoid...seems like a busy airspace up there though compared to Tucson!!
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  #8  
Old 11-20-2013, 08:02 PM
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GalinHdz GalinHdz is offline
 
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Location: KSGJ / TJBQ
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonFromTX View Post
I see you have a Skyview, apparently no Mode S or ADSB in and out? You would have been warned and able to track its movements if you had. Your situation is EXACTLY why my Skyview does have that capability.
ADSB in/out does not guarantee another aircraft will be displayed. If he was below radar coverage and didn't have ADSB out on the ADSB frequency you use (1090 or 978) he will never show up on your display. ADSB it is just another tool to help out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
Would it have been different if it was another RV you almost hit? The reason I ask is because two VFR aircraft don't get separation in uncontrolled airspace. When we leave some of the MOAs or restricted airspace we are VFR (F-16) and usually get picked up for flight following, but some times they are too busy. If the C-130 wasn't talking to anyone it is simple see and avoid...seems like a busy airspace up there though compared to Tucson!!
See and avoid is still the ultimate tool we have to avoid a midair collision.

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  #9  
Old 11-20-2013, 08:11 PM
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rocketbob rocketbob is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 8I3
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Default

Several years ago a couple of friends and I were returning from SNF when we were "intercepted" by a C130. We could see him from several miles away and he passed within 500 ft below us, clearly they were tracking us. I thought it was pretty cool. Then about 30 minutes later, they intercepted us again from the opposite direction, same thing. This time as they were just to our 10 o'clock a couple of us simutaneously did an aileron roll.

So if you had it in sight the whole time what's the problem?
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  #10  
Old 11-20-2013, 08:11 PM
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N804RV N804RV is offline
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Mount Vernon, Wa
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Question

One thing I learned as a GA pilot and Navy enlisted aircrewman, don't assume that all military pilots are up to speed on GA flight ops, or even give it much thought. I've seen Navy helo pilots bust into a busy pattern at an uncontrolled airport without even a thought, let alone a radio call. When I was active aircrew, many of our helos didn't even have VHF AM radios. We were UHF coms only.
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Last edited by N804RV : 11-20-2013 at 08:17 PM.
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