E10 fuel and Lycoming fuel pump

[David-aviator]

I'd like to burn 91 octane mogas but can not buy it without ethanol in this area.

The unknown element in the fuel system with regard to E10 is the mechanical fuel pump. I know there have been and are aerobatic guys flying with pure ethanol but I have been unable to find out where their fuel pumps came from. I even called an engine shop in California that built at least one such engine and they would not comment on the fuel pump and ethanol.

Lycoming fuel pumps could easily be built with materials resistant to E10 fuel. Don Rivera has been building his fuel injection systems with such material for some time - why not the darn fuel pump?

Is anyone here running E10 through the standard mechanical pump at this time? I have a feeling the pump may in fact be built with such materials but manufacturers won't comment out of the old liability issues. A while back Tempest was actually testing the materials aiming for certification but one of their guys told me the program was terminated without comment. He said he could not comment on the subject. Sounds like a lawyer got involved.

For sure some company has built a pump with suitable materials, there are airplanes flying on E100 powered Lycoming engines.

[rocketbob]

Ditch the mechanical pump, lots of threads here on the subject.

[guccidude1]

I fly mogas with 10% ethanol with mechanical fuel pump on an O-360-A4M. The aircraft is 6.5 years old and 1100 plus hours. Dan

[comfortcat]

I was also looking for a fuel pump rebuild kit that would tolerate E10, but was told you can not buy fuel pump rebuild kits at all.

I was "told" that all new and rebuilt pumps now use "E10 Tolerant" rubber parts, but when I ask what that meant: Silence.

I have not heard the in-flight re-start issue before. I wonder what is happening that might cause that?

Dkb

[N427EF]

Been flying 91 E10 for the last couple of years.
I keep track of all the mogas that I burn and so far I've just topped 1000 Gallons.
I keep avgas in one tank mostly so I can have the airplane sit around with avgas in the system but 91 octane E10 is no problem as far as I can tell.
I have a sophisticated engine monitor with data logging and I keep a close eye on trends and anything abnormal.
I know one thing, it runs smoother and leaner on mogas than avgas and keeps the engine and plugs clean.
The mechanical pump does not show any sign of letting up and from what I know the materials that cannot tolerate ethanol are not even available anymore. No one will certify that claim and dealing with today's litigious society who can blame them.
Lots of people are using 91 octane E10 but most got tired of preaching and answering trumped up fears and old wife's tales.

Aero Sport IO 540 8:1 CR
AFP fuel injection
One Lightspeed ignition and one maneto
Constant flow fuel return line (no vapor lock issues)

[Bevan]

[quote=N427EF;821139]I keep avgas in one tank mostly so I can have the airplane sit around with avgas in the system but 91 octane E10 is no problem as far as I can tell.
I have a sophisticated engine monitor with data logging and I keep a close eye on trends and anything abnormal.
I know one thing, it runs smoother and leaner on mogas than avgas and keeps the engine and plugs clean.
The mechanical pump does not show any sign of letting up and from what I know the materials that cannot tolerate ethanol are not even available anymore. No one will certify that claim and dealing with today's litigious society who can blame them.
Lots of people are using 91 octane E10 but most got tired of preaching and answering trumped up fears and old wife's tales.

QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly.

Bevan

[RV10inOz]

It works....but just as Ernst has done, you will need to do exactly what he has done.

The issue is 91 E10 will work but there is no room variables. It certainly will not pass certification tests as is required by the FAA for the new unleaded fuels projects. I have first hand seen this on the engine test stand many times.

The future for an unleaded 100MON aviation gasoline is looking bright, and when it is available at the airfield, all our engines will run healthier and longer, much longer. Look what happened to car maintenance on ULP.

Hang in there a little bit longer.

The other issue is gum deposits from olefin content. And mogas is full of all sorts of things, and I have become very skilled at removing cleaning and reinstalling the carby's on my near new Yamaha 175HP V6 outboard. Why? Mogas and gum deposits from infrequent use.

[N208ET]

I run a mixture of ethanol free 87 octane mogas and 100LL in my right tank only. I did run some E10 in my mixture this summer with no ill effects that I could see but I do as Ernst does and leave nothing but a gas in my fuel lines and carb and pump when parked. I personally think that when the ethanol sits in the lines is when your likely to have a problem but that is just my theory. I choose not to buy E10 for my mixture the other day with winter approaching increasing the chance for the ethanol to absorb water. I use a 105 gal slip tank, right now I put in 60 mogas, 45 gal 100LL. That fuel for me is 4.45 a gallon. I figure if I save a buck or more a gallon over Avgas it's worth it. Avgas is 5.55.

Randy
8A

[RV10inOz]

your own flying science experiment, with little knowledge of what is actually going on.......

I would avoid the 87 altogether no matter what you think already. What goes into it is seriously random. Two of my best friends are the engineering stuff for two of the major refineries......even they will not use anything less than the premium unleaded in their cars and one in their subuaru powered RV8.....that tells you something.

The less you know the better it sounds.

[N427EF]

The Vanguard Squadron, 16 plus years of ethanol use
Gary Kuhns, lead pilot of the air show squadron, ?The Vanguards? has info on ethanol use. This is no surprise, they have been practicing and performing in RV-3s all the while running the IO-320 engines on ethanol and all mixtures of ethanol and avgas when flying x-country to and from the show sites. I figure with their 16+ years of ethanol experience, they can provide some insight for my own flex fuel project. In addition, by putting the team?s experiences out here on the board, hopefully it will answer a question that has come up occasionally on the vansairforce boards. What about the Vanguard Squadron? What have they done to the airplanes so they are ethanol compatible?

This posting is based on 3 or 4 conversations I had with Gary during 2010. The last conversation we had, Gary added some clarifications and corrections to the draft I had sent him.

Basics on the Vanguard airplanes
Four similar Rv-3 airplanes, N6GT, N16MR, N19EH, N25RV
IO-320 and wood Sensenich propellors

Fuel system
Like many other early Rv-3s, all four Vanguard airplanes have 24 gallon fuselage tanks. However, two of the four also sport wing tanks giving them impressive fuel capacity. None of the fuel tanks were built using special procedures or unusual materials as the planes were built with avgas in mind. Aerobatics are flown with wing tanks (if present) empty and fuel feeding from a flop tube inside the fuselage tanks. All have a factory type mechanical fuel pump and backup electric pump on the firewall. In order to accommodate the higher fuel flow needed with ethanol, Airflow Performance, Inc has re-calibrated the Bendix fuel injection systems. None of the airplanes have fuel drain sumps or gascolaters, Gary reports they were removed when they realized they weren?t performing any function. There is no separation of water and any particulates are trapped at the screened inlet to the Bendix fuel servo. All four have avgas priming systems for cold starts. They use a small fuel tank, (weed-wacker size) mounted behind the seat to feed the priming system.

Can't argue with real life experience. Keep in mind their engine parameters are a little different in that they have used pure ethanol or any mixture of avgas and mogas, whatever was available according to their first hand account.
Can't argue with engineering data either:
The fellow who really convinced me that nothing will go wrong with mogas flies on a West Coast formation team and had at the time accumulated over a thousand hours using nothing but the cheapest 87 octane E10 mogas.
He had done no modification to his mechanical/boost pump and carbed set up. He did report a couple of vapor lock hick ups and that is something I addressed with my fuel system. His airplane as well as the Vanguard airplanes all sit around soaked in ethanol gas and their mechanical pumps are showing no signs of deterioration.
I do believe letting airplanes ,cars or other gasoline engines sit around unused for long periods of time is cause for concern.