Cylinders: ECI vs Superior or Other

[LifeofReiley]

I'm looking for decision support? To all the Engine Gurus and Roll your own engine builders out there, which is the cylinder kit to by in today?s market? So many things are changing. It seems like everyday products are being improved and or modified in some way. I will not be going with standard compression pistons and have not settled on the type of pistons or the ratio yet. I would like to discuss overall quality, casting, manufacturing methods etc... Which will require a port clean up? Who's cleaned up their fins from casting issues? Is anyone using a cryogenic process on wear parts? Etc... Any information or advice is appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

[gmcjetpilot]

The I have been told by engine experts I trust and have a great reputation that both are fine, but for a low use personal plane not flown daily, the ECI is better and preferred. The reason is the finish and better corrosion resistance. The Superior would be the better choice for a fleet plane (lease back or freight ie one flown all the time). In this case corrosion is not an issue and I infer the features and design are slightly better.

In either case you are "buying the company" and their support. I can talk a little about ECI. I have had great experience with the people and support. I have no first hand experience or knowledge of Superior but know they where just sold to a German company recently. That's just a comment with no conclusion. I tryed to talk to Superior at Oshkosh once and was not impressed with their customer service.

Price wise, both companies are simular, but Superior charges a premium for their parts as I recall. You can look up service bulletins for Superior and ECI. Again it's the companies service that counts the most. Considering we leave our airplanes sometimes weeks, even months at a time, the corrosion resistance of the ECI may be the ticket, as was suggested to me. For the record I have genuine Lycoming Cylinders currently.

If you read the sales brochure from any of the manufacrturer you are left with the opinion each has the best. Besides the corrosion I go on cost, warranty, company support / reputation and availability.

[Bryan Wood]

I only continue to tell people about this because the saga continues on this with ECI! My father-in-law has had nightmares with ECI on his Comanche and is now one of the people who gets to buy a new set of jugs with a small credit towards them from ECI. It started with a set of ECI cylinders that had started to make metal in the filter shortly after overhaul. On this we are talking less than 300 hours. This is an airplane that is flown approx. 150 hours per year and has oil changed at 30 hours. These cylinders did however make it past warrenty before the Chrome or whatever they were started coming off in the bores. ECI didn't want to talk about this and he ended up with a set of ECI Classic Casts completely on his dime which ran hot from the very first flight. After numerous conversations with ECI where they told him for over two years that he was the only one with problems like he described they finally admitted to flashing problems with these cylinders and agreed to fix them. This was after a couple of hundred hours without being able to climb out under 140mph or so for cooling. After the flashing was removed by the engine builder (ground out with a dremel while on the airplane. The flashing was near the exhaust port) the temps came down to normal ranges, but oil usage started to appear. Again he called ECI and they said that the consumption was within specs even though on the high side. He was left to enjoy his Classic Cast Cylinders. He specifically mentioned that once they ran past the warrenty period they would need to be topped as consumption continued to climb. He kept telling them that operations around 425+ degrees cht on climbout and 400 degrees in cruise hurt them and likely was causing the oil usage. He asked repeatedly to have ECI swap them out for Titans which were now out. Classics went off of the market so he wasn't going to get them swapped out for those. No, no, no... These Classic Casts are what you bought and even though they appear problematic they are yours. Well add a couple of more years and a reworking of the cylinders at ECI. (They agreed to finally after years of his calls to clean up the bore, valves, etc. so that they could get a look at these clunkers.) As he suspected the heat had taken its toll. When they came back they were finally right. They now run great, no cooling issues, and normal consumption and have about 300 hours on them and there is now an AD on the Classic Casts and his have to come off. Again his jugs are going to be replaced and this experience is very unrewarding for him. While I have read so many good things from so many about ECI I have watched as this saga has unfolded. Because of this I had my engine built with Superior Cylinders. Here's the kicker, my father-in-law still prefers ECI and is going with new Titans. Go figure. Nothing but the best, or whatever it needs for his baby. I looked at it as my budget wasn't as free as his to play games like this with my airplane. He loves his ECI's but freely admits that the company could stand behind them better. I wouldn't wish this on anybody. Truth be told Superior might not be any different, but I don't know of any problems.

Probably more of an issue than the manufacturer of the cylinders is the engine builder that you choose. The good ones will stand behind their product even if suppliers will not. I talked with a person at the Golden West two years ago that had the cam start to make metal in his 9A a year or so after warrenty, and well past on hours also. Bart at AeroSport rebuilt it for him no questions asked. They got a bad cam from Lyc and Bart stood behind his product. If not Bart, find one like him whose reputation you can trust.

In my father-in-laws case he bought the best engine overhaul that money could buy. At least that is what he shopped for. There was no skimping, re-using of parts, etc. He got special pistons, balanced, everything balanced, flow ported, and the engine is remarkably smooth. He flew with Larry Larkin who is the guru of Comanches to learn to fly it to it's limits such as turning back to the runway with engine outs, etc. and Mr. Larkin told him that it was the smoothest Comanche he had ever been in. This plane won it's class at EAA Arlington which I mention just to give an idea of the obsessiveness he has with things being just right. Imagine how the cylinder issue drove him crazy. Who needs it? This lasted years!!! It took the FAA to make ECI admit the shortcomings of their Classic Casts. Wouldn't it be nice if it didn't have to go this far? Is seems like a bad cast that apparently got the entire lot of jugs sold to get hot and develope cracks later or draw FAA concerns of it for all cylinders would be acknowledged and fixed when somebody is yelling "Look at me, my engine isn't right. Help." Remember when shopping, there was no help...

Best,

[osxuser]

Here is the run-down as I understand it:

ECI:
Nickel-hardened cylinders are more resistant to corrosion.
Some critical areas of the cylinders strengthened
Have had quality control problems in the past

Superior:
Through-hardened cylinders are suseptable to corrosion, and are the softest in the industry
Cylinders a strengthened significantly, but there is a weight penalty
No quality control problems that I am aware of, and flashing has never been an issue.

Lycoming:
Nitrited Hardening process the hardest in the industry, still more susceptible to corrosion than ECi, but better than Superior
Cylinders have been slowly improved over the years, but strength baselines are set on these.
Some QC issues in the past, including flashing, but seem to have it all sorted out.


For my money, Superior or Lycoming, depending on if you plan on boosting your engine's output. I like Lyc's cylinders, but with a normally rated engine (and one we didn't want any cracking issues on) we went with Superior.

[vlittle]

I've been experiencing somewhat high CHTs in my new Aerosport O-320 with ECI TITAN cylinders.

Not outrageous, but about 20-30F more than my buddies are seeing (I'm seeing 380F at 60% cruise/8500', 54F ambient, best econ mixture).

Rather than pulling my hair out entirely, I called Bart Lalonde at Aerosport, and he told me that, in general, the ECIs run about 20F higher than other cylinders, and that this is normal and consistent. He had no explanation other than maybe the CHT probe bores are a little different. He was not at all concerned. [see note]

If I correct to standard temperature, this would give me about 350F CHTs, and my friends are reporting 325F. BTW, oil temp is 175-200F, which is good.

Vern Little

[note] If the CHT probe bore is different between cylinders (depth or proximity to cooling fins) this will have a difference on measured CHTs between cylinder designs. Bart may run some experiments using spark plug gasket CHT probes to see if there are similar differences between types cylinders.

[Ironflight]

You might consider giving some of the guys like Mahlon at Mattituck, or Bart at Aerosport (or one of the other well-known builders - I've found them all to be pretty willing to share!) and asking them their experiences and opinions. Most of them build engines with combinations of parts form Superior, ECI, and Lycoming, and probably see more cylinders in a month than most of us builders will see in a lifetime. If anyone can give an honest comparison, it would be those guys.

And come back and share what you find out!

Paul

[LifeofReiley]

Thanks to everyone! Alway great information and advise. I will make some calls...

[Walt]

Running an O360A1A carb/lightspeed/constant spd/std compression in my 7A and have been absolutely delighted with the engine. Texas summers are HOT and I run 350/360 average cht in climb and 310-320 in cruise (65% power). S/W oil cooler with 170-180 oil temps with 100F oat. In the winter I have to block 75% of the cooler to keep the temps up. When I had the prop balanced the guy doing it said engine vibs was one of the best he has ever seen. When I was doing research on which engine I went through some of the same excercises with a number of builders, quite a few recommended the ECI cylinders over the Superior. I'm sure Superior is good but I have been happy with ECI and their support. for example when ECI came out with their SS valve covers last year (my engine was a year old) I asked about upgrading to them instead of the painted black ones I had, a few days later a new set showed up with new silicone gaskets compliments of ECI/America's Aircraft Engines no charge! 2 years and approx 400 trouble free hours and she still purs like a kitten.

[Walter Atkinson]

Verne:

** in general, the ECIs run about 20F higher than other cylinders, and that this is normal and consistent. He had no explanation other than maybe the CHT probe bores are a little different. He was not at all concerned. **

It is consistent but it's NOT normal--or good--or OK.

1) We think we have a very good handle on WHY the ECIs run hotter and it's NOT probe placement or measurement error... it's real. The *exact* reason is proprietary information, but I can assure you they DO run hotter--for real. We feel very strongly that we know how to fix the problem, if only we had the time to run the project.

2) I WOULD be concerned about it. Durability is very temperature related. A cylinder running cooler will be stronger and will last longer. Also, a cooler cylinder produces more HP due to improved volumetric efficiency.

This issue alone is reason enough for me to avoid ECI cylinders.

Others' mileage may vary.

Walter

[vlittle]

Originally Posted by Walter Atkinson

Verne:

** in general, the ECIs run about 20F higher than other cylinders, and that this is normal and consistent. He had no explanation other than maybe the CHT probe bores are a little different. He was not at all concerned. **

It is consistent but it's NOT normal--or good--or OK.

1) We think we have a very good handle on WHY the ECIs run hotter and it's NOT probe placement or measurement error... it's real. The *exact* reason is proprietary information, but I can assure you they DO run hotter--for real. We feel very strongly that we know how to fix the problem, if only we had the time to run the project.

2) I WOULD be concerned about it. Durability is very temperature related. A cylinder running cooler will be stronger and will last longer. Also, a cooler cylinder produces more HP due to improved volumetric efficiency.

This issue alone is reason enough for me to avoid ECI cylinders.

Others' mileage may vary.

Walter

Walter, it would be interesting if you could share more info with us. I know it's difficult without confirmed experimental data, but anything you can share would be valuable.

As for horsepower, my O-320 puts out more than rated HP. I have to go to 9500 feet/std conditions WOT to get 75% HP. In side-by-side flying with another O-320 RV-6A (mine's a 9A), I am 3 to 5 knots faster. This is likely due to induction system efficiencies in my Superior roller lifter crankcase, but I can certainly say that I'm not losing HP with the ECI cylinders.

Finally, Bart also mentioned that ECI's casting alloy is superior (no pun intended) to Superior's alloy, good for another 100F. I have no confirmation of this, but he says it's the same alloy used in the Lycoming geared engines. Perhaps you know more.

I'd be reluctant to say that any one type of cylinder is better or worse based on one piece of data... I'd trust people like Bart more than reading the marketing 'information' provided by the manufacturers.

Vern