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  #21  
Old 09-04-2013, 12:29 AM
Bob Axsom Bob Axsom is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,685
Default NO!

NO! I do not believe it is safe to have a panel without direct physics instrumentation.

Bob Axsom
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  #22  
Old 09-04-2013, 04:08 AM
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rleffler rleffler is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Delaware, OH (KDLZ)
Posts: 4,196
Default

Add this topic to the primer war list. It's a debate with no correct answer, only personal opinions based upon individuals own experience levels and concerns.

Is it prudent to have a backup device in case your EFIS fails? Certainly if you are IFR. Should it be from a different manaufacturer? If IFR, the answer would be yes. It mitigates the very small risk should there be a software issue that renders the EFIS non-operational. You don't want a software bug rendering all displays inoperable.

If you primarily fly VFR, then then answer is whatever it takes to make your spouse sleep better at night. It's not necessary, but it's not required. Like Ian mentioned, there are other items to be concerned with if you're discussing risk management.

Should it be steam or another EFIS? Personal choice.

My choice was a Trutrak Gemini. My decision was made to keep the user interfaces similiar to minimize think time issues in an emergency. Is my decision good for anyone else? Maybe, but that isn't may call.

Some folks have flown behind steam gauges for long enough, that those are more intuitive for them. There is nothing wrong with that decision either.

There is no correct answer. The best we can do is share the decisions we made for ourselves and the logic we used that led us to that conclusion. Then let others determine if that same decision tree works for them and their mission.

This is simple risk management as penguin Pete has stated. How to mitigate and which risks to accept are going to be different for each of us.
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  #23  
Old 09-04-2013, 07:24 AM
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GalinHdz GalinHdz is offline
 
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Location: KSGJ / TJBQ
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dynonsupport View Post
I realize it's not for everyone, but if you are willing to fly IMC with a single engine, a single pilot, a single pitot, single com, etc, yet worried about crazy redundancy in your panel, you may not be focusing on the real and likely failure points.
Exactly how I feel about the debate. The only way to eliminate ALL possible failures while flying, is not to fly at all.

This is my panel which I fly "soft" (no thunderstorms) IFR in.



Last edited by GalinHdz : 09-04-2013 at 11:34 AM. Reason: Typo
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  #24  
Old 09-04-2013, 04:32 PM
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N355DW N355DW is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Port St Lucie, FL
Posts: 261
Default I have some analog, for a different reason

Here is mine, just shipped from Stein. I have the steam gauges mainly for flying competition acro, I felt it would be much easier and quicker to get the info I need on airspeed and altitude from analog gauges when flying competition, your attention should be mostly outside the airplane during this activity. I will fly acro from the right seat, hence the steam gauges on the right. I will fly x-country from the left seat, I was originally going to fly from the right seat, then I pictured trying to turn knobs and use a touch screen in turbulence with my left hand (I am right-handed). So I put a starter button on both side as well. The dock is for my trusty 396, and I will have an iPad and iPhone as well, hence the USB power slots. With 5 GPS's on board, VOR/ILS, two ADHRS, battery backups, I feel I have much more reliability and redundancy than I did all the hours I flew single engine IFR in spam cans. It doesn't have the reliability of a twin turboprop with dual pitot tubes and dual alternators, but I don't plan on long cross countries over or into low IFR conditions, more just punching through layers. It will be very fun keeping up my proficiency in this plane, though, so I am expecting many practice approaches to minimums!

Going to and from competitions will sure be much more luxurious in this plane, and a whole lot easier and less stressful when I can file IFR to do it! Maybe I will start a new trend among lazy old acro pilots (like me) who don't want to work so hard anymore!

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  #25  
Old 09-04-2013, 07:13 PM
Rupester Rupester is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mahomet, Illinois
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by penguin View Post
I think you have to consider your own personal view of risk taking, and what you are prepared to pay to mitigate those risks. ... Most people building a $100K airplane can afford an ASI, altimeter and electric AI - do you feel you need that insurance?

... you should assess the risks you might be taking (in the context of single engine IFR) with your choice of primary instruments, think carefully about your appetite to accept those risks, and therefore how you want to mitigate them (or not).

Pete
Pete nailed it. Couldn't have said it better.
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  #26  
Old 09-04-2013, 08:45 PM
dutchroll dutchroll is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 123
Default Steam versus electronic backup

I'm not sure why backup instrumentation has to be steam driven. Lockheed Martin don't care for it in the F22, nor do numerous other manufacturers. I mean, sure, if you have no backup electrical source well maybe that makes sense. But it depends what failures you want to mitigate against.

If you really want true instrumentation redundancy then you'll need dual pitot, dual static, anti-iced, dual independent power supplies connected to your primary and backup systems. How far do you want to go?

Any IFR (notwithstanding legal requirements) I would have primary attitude/speed/altitude, then a secondary attitude/speed/altitude with an independent power supply. I have no problem with same brand names of prim & sec EFIS. Pitot of course would be anti-iced/heated. Steam-driven? Well, if you really want to.

VFR...meh. Whatever.
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  #27  
Old 09-05-2013, 06:07 AM
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Brantel Brantel is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Newport, TN
Posts: 7,496
Default

My first panel never had any steam or AHRS backups but it was VFR only...



My redo does not have any steam either:


This one currently has three and soon to be four sets of gyro's to keep the greasy side down. It has 6 GPS's full time and has 9 sometimes when I have my Iphone, Ipad and 796 in the cockpit. It has a main battery that can run everything for over 30 minutes and a backup battery that can run critical components for over an hour.

All of this sound like overkill but in reality it happened without much thought given to redundancy. The modern components just lean that way when all put together as a system when you use stuff that is intended to work together.

On my first flight, it took about a minute to get in sync with only having digital tapes for the critical stuff. I have never looked back. The modern EFIS systems have really good altitude and speed tapes and they are easy to interpret. If a screen fails, I have two more with automatic failover capabilities.

Its a good time to be an avionics geek and an EAB builder/owner/pilot!
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  #28  
Old 09-05-2013, 08:48 PM
rotary57 rotary57 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: kmvi
Posts: 45
Default it's safe

I initially had some concern when I realized I couldn't fit any of my steam gauges in my (in progress) dual screen G3X panel upgrade, thinking I wanted some backups if my power went out. Then I remembered all my gyros were electrical anyway, and haven't thought twice about it since. I live in a very high mountain valley, and spend a lot of time flying over 14.5k mountains at night - I will feel safer with my new synthetic vision screens (each of which is a backup for ALL your instrumentation) then I ever did with my steam gauges.
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  #29  
Old 09-05-2013, 08:53 PM
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Mike S Mike S is offline
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Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
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Default Welcome to VAF!

Jeff, welcome to VAF
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  #30  
Old 09-05-2013, 09:32 PM
rotary57 rotary57 is offline
 
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Default

Thank you! What a great resource, I've been lurking for years
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