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08-04-2013, 08:19 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chesterfield, Missouri
Posts: 4,514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckguy
Well obviously I have struck a cord, especially with the frugal folk. First off let me say I respect all of your opinions, your airplanes whatever caliber they may be and the effort you took to even voice your opinion here. Now with that said let me say a few more words. My issues in a more specific way is this:
1. The standoffishness and inability to grab someones attention. This was mentioned by many others in this thread so obviously others are feeling a little lack of love here. It does not have to be Icon or Cirrus but a warm reception is nice. I also am very interested in building a legend cub kit and the booth they had was 2 planes, (current, clean, and well presented) and two very friendly people on folding chairs, one of whom was the owner that welcomed us, answered questions, invited us to the factory and spoke at very long length about it all with us and remembered our names in later days as we stopped back.
2. I understand that the planes they have have been abused and used but they are showing their age both in condition and modernness of panels and avionics, It just doesn't excite or represent the community all that well or the amazing planes many of you build. Heck have one or two that are roped for viewing only that are truly one of a kind builds to show people whats possible. I loved the idea of a vans camp with their vendors, builders etc. I understand the community is huge but EAA is too and the best foot forward just aint there.
3. My girlfriend is a CFII/MEII with a background in new Cessna sales, has over 2000 hours of Corvalis time, and now flies the Citations and Phenom's. She is absolutely in love with the cub notion and is excited to help build it and thought many of the RV's displayed around were awesome but was turned off by the booths ratty appearance and the staff in it. She sells multi million dollar planes to folks that expect a mile, she was looking for a smile and didn't get it.
Dont worry guys, If vans replaced the 20 year old banner that proudly announces their presence at the world greatest gathering i don't think the kit costs would rise to much.
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I think, Matt, the discussion should be about the quality of the product rather the display tent.
Perhaps what motivated this thread was the failure of Vans to win over your girl friend who is leaning toward a cub rather than a RV which you would prefer. Would a one on one smiley conversation, a pat on the back and a new flag at the tent have done it? Probably not.
Sounds like she has her head on straight and if it's a cub that lights her fire, encourage her to go for it. They are great airplanes, just not quite as "total performance" and great as an RV - like it takes 3 days to get anywhere. If she needs to go anywhere, she can jump in a Cessna jet and blast off. For local flying, there's nothing like a cub with the door open in the summer time.
Be smart, let her do her thing, you do yours. You don't have to sleep with her airplane and she doesn't have to sleep with yours, it is not a big deal.
If you are impressed with the RV concept, go for it and don't get hung up on the lack of a fancy marketing pitch. There's lots of that at OSH, much of it is vapor, and people get hurt by it over and over. You won't get hurt going with an RV.
Vans has an outstanding product and they in fact do like and appreciate their customers. At least that has been my experience.
__________________
RV-12 Build Helper
RV-7A...Sold #70374
The RV-8...Sold #83261
I'm in, dues paid 2019 This place is worth it!
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08-04-2013, 08:21 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Meridian ID, Aspen CO, Okemos MI
Posts: 2,645
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Some of us do have a clue
Some of us do know what is involved in trade shows. The company I work with had over 5 million sf of trade show and retail space in Vegas we developed and used to manage. I know the costs and what it takes. A smile doesn't cost anything.
Back to the first posts thoughts - there are many airplanes to chose from that most of us would be happy to own, build, or fly. I am lucky - my wife likes the 9A I am building. If she didn't, I would build or buy a different one. A good relationship with my wife is much more important than if I flew a RV or a Kitfox.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TangoBravo
For the many of you who have only attended a trade show ( and that is exactly what Airventure is) you don't have even a clue. Do you know what a booth space cost no.... Try thousands...what housing food costs are no? more thousands...transportation of booth and product...no try tens of thousands. The endurance it takes to put up with the crowds who are tire kickers and nay sayers. Try infinite patience especially for a week.
You all should have to work that tent 10 hours a day for 5 days. and have to pay the costs of displaying. Busy trade shows are fun to work and time goes by fast and when you have a GREAT product you can endue all of the above.
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__________________
rockwoodrv9a
Williamston MI
O-320 D2A
Awaiting DAR Inspection
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08-04-2013, 09:03 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Huskerland, USA
Posts: 5,862
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For all of those complaining about "customer service" at the Vans tent working the booth, any booth, for 10 days and see how customer friendly you are to people asking stupid questions just to be recognized.
I have always found the people at Vans tent to be professional and courteous, and most of all human! AV is hard work! Give them a break, call when the show is over! 
__________________
RV-7 : In the hangar
RV-10 : In the hangar
RV-12 : Built and sold
RV-44 : 4 place helicopter on order.
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08-05-2013, 07:17 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: State College, Penna
Posts: 46
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Van's Change
Change costs MONEY! If it ain't broke, don't fix it! VANS produces the best, economical, efficient aircraft and also the most kits on the planet! I don't need to see an expensive marketing display or a false " Hi, how are you doing" greeting when I visit their displays. They are busy answering questions and selling product! Leave them focus on that and not the BS that a few people seem to need!!! Sometimes the best food comes from the greasy diner, in VANS case, the best kits from an informal setting! Don't change a thing!!!!
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08-05-2013, 09:42 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Estes Park, CO
Posts: 3,947
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test drive
This is an interesting exchange. We are an opinionated bunch.
I have one recommendation.
Discuss the mission. Cub and RV are totally different.
Take a test ride in each model. Go to the factories.
Buy the assembly manuals and see what is involved.
Wives and significant others love travel. It sounds like the OP has access to fly anywhere.
My wife fell in love with me, loves and supports my passions, as I do her(s), so her opinion was paramount to the decision. I am so glad she fell in love with the RV7a slider cuz that was my choice too!
As for building, the same applies. She asks me every day if I need help and seems genuinely excited to be in the shop. I know nothing about sewing but offer my assistance and enjoy helping if I can.
That was my motivation for buying a Vans airplane. Wife opinion, mission and performance.
I have no opinion on Vans tent. They greeted me and asked if I had a question. They seemed nice. I didn't go to look at the display planes. Had I been a first timer, maybe it would have been different. I didn't visit the other manufacturers.
I did visit the engine tents and most of the avionics vendors. Grand Rapids was tops for customer service but all treated me pretty well.
Maybe it was the t-shirt I made for the show. "I'm building a Vans RV and buying engine and avionics" (joking).
__________________
Larry Larson
Estes Park, CO
http://wirejockrv7a.blogspot.com
wirejock at yahoo dot com
Donated 12/03/2019, plus a little extra.
RV-7A #73391, N511RV reserved (2,000+ hours)
HS SB, empennage, tanks, wings, fuse, working finishing kit
Disclaimer
I cannot be, nor will I be, held responsible if you try to do the same things I do and it does not work and/or causes you loss, injury, or even death in the process.
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08-05-2013, 10:57 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Elkhart, Indiana
Posts: 1,186
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I could be wrong, but I don't think Van's employs anyone purely for marketing at Oshkosh. No hired models to bring in guys (some vendors do that), no glad-handers with big hooks to pull in customers. Everybody at the booth works for Van's in some capacity, and many are engineers, not sales people.
In my experience, most engineers are rather introverted. If you have a technical question, they put it in gear and usually give you more info than you wanted. But to expect a big smile and a hearty welcome is asking a bit much.
Like I said, I could be wrong (I was once ), but the apparent lack of cheery customer service could just be a reflection of the personalities of those employed by the folks who make the best homebuilt planes in the world.
As they say, "It's not personal, it's business." 
And as for wanting even more glitz and glamor ... is that really what people want at Oshkosh? Isn't there already enough flash and sizzle? We homebuilders complain that we are no longer EAA's target market, and have become a minority segment of the EAA family. IMO, more glitz only perpetuates the problem that has overtaken EAA. Kudos to Van's Aircraft for keeping it real.
__________________
Don McNamara
Peoria, AZ
Builder: RV-8 "Smokey"
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08-05-2013, 11:47 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Brookshire, TX
Posts: 1,036
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckguy
now did you see a suite at the Hilton on the field, The VIP dinners and after parties, the fully catered aviators club and hospitality areas that I did? I doubt it, so I would watch your tone about knowledge of business.
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I think I'm starting to see the cultural disconnect here. I can't speak for anyone else, but neither I nor my lovely partner care anything at all about Hilton suites, VIP dinners, after parties, or the catered hospitality areas. We slept in a tent in the North 40 this year and had the time of our lives. Like DanH mentioned, this year we had beer in a backyard as well as donuts pulled straight out of the box on a folding chair, and I enjoyed the heck out of both.
I believe that the majority of the builders here are practical folks. I want to have fun flying without paying an arm and a leg. I want the satisfaction of getting my hands dirty in the garage. It took about 120 seconds flying an RV-7A before I realized that Van's had exactly what I wanted: a reasonably priced airplane that performed. I didn't need to see a shiny display or talk to a smiling company representative to order my tail kit; flying the plane and talking to builders told me everything I needed to know. In fact, the first time I talked to someone at Van's was just before I ordered my wing kit. I've been to OSH twice now and I've never spoken to anyone in the Van's tent. It'd be nice to maybe say hi from a social perspective, but outside of that I don't have any cold, rational need to talk to them.
I get the feeling from your Hilton/VIP/etc references you have a significantly higher expectation of service. There's nothing wrong with that; its your thing and it's not mine. But Van's is a practical business in the same way that I'm a practical builder, and their success shows that their approach is working far better than the glitzier vendors.
To be blunt, Van's is doing just fine without your business, and it looks like they will continue to do so. They don't seem to be having any trouble attracting new customers with their current bare-bones marketing, so why should they change? They're not obligated to you or anyone else. If their marketing doesn't fit your needs, then maybe it's best for you to accept that you're not their market and move on.
__________________
Philip
-8 fuselage in progress (remember when I thought the wing kit had a lot of parts? HAHAHAHAHA)
http://rv.squawk1200.net
Last edited by N546RV : 08-05-2013 at 11:52 AM.
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08-05-2013, 11:56 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chesterfield, Missouri
Posts: 4,514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8RV
As they say, "It's not personal, it's business." 
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And as they say, "If you need a friend, get a dog".
__________________
RV-12 Build Helper
RV-7A...Sold #70374
The RV-8...Sold #83261
I'm in, dues paid 2019 This place is worth it!
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08-05-2013, 12:35 PM
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been here awhile
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 4,301
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The Vans process worked perfectly
Quote:
Originally Posted by duckguy
Obviously chief you didn't read my post carefully and the her clients expect a mile and we only expected a smile and didn't get it. I also don't want to be a [deleted] here but yes I did see the homebuilt camping and it was very full and certainly impressive, now did you see a suite at the Hilton on the field, The VIP dinners and after parties, the fully catered aviators club and hospitality areas that I did? I doubt it, so I would watch your tone about knowledge of business.
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It appears the Vans "process" worked perfectly in this situation.
Duckguy, the Vans tent did you a huge favor. You and your fiance are not suited to be RV builders or members of the Vans family. You are seeking a different culture from what you would find in the RV universe.
Instead of wasting more time contemplating an RV, you are now free to turn your total attention toward aircraft, and aviation communities, that better suit your expectations.
It was nice meeting you, and best wishes for an enjoyable aviation journey regardless of where you land.
Last edited by Sam Buchanan : 08-05-2013 at 12:39 PM.
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08-05-2013, 12:49 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Wichita Falls, TX
Posts: 2,182
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I stopped by the Vans tent on Saturday of the closing weekend and everyone I spoke with there was very cheerful and friendly to me. The only thing that was disappointing to me was that they'd sold out completely of Vans Aircraft ball caps... I guess I should've stopped by a day or two earlier 
__________________
Neal Howard
Airplaneless once again...
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