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08-05-2013, 08:48 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
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I stopped by the Van?s tent after this tread was started and the Van?s team was both hurt and amused the comments contained within it.
As mentioned before, the team at Van?s is full of engineers, builders, etc., not sales people. Maybe because of this, they don?t come off as ?polished? as some potential customers would expect when preparing to drop some major coin in the Van?s cash register.
That said, I stood back and watched potential customers ignore the signs requesting people to ask for assistance before climbing in the aircraft. Watching one guy try to board the RV-12 from behind the wing was a bit amusing and concerning. In short, the Van?s team was trying to answer every question and at the same time assist people climbing in and out of the aircraft. Remember, those same people are flying these planes home and any damage may mean they are stuck in OSH after the party ends.
In other words, cut them some slack. They are there to answer questions, not ?sell? you a kit. They are smart enough to know that deciding to build a plane is a huge endeavor and they cannot and should not sell a kit to someone who is not ready for such a major undertaking. IM HO, they have a vested interest in selling the kits to people who will complete them. They aren?t really in the business of just selling tail kits.
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
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08-06-2013, 12:11 AM
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Super Moderator
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 1,158
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Great Job Van's
Stein, both your posts are dead on with my comments towards this subject.
I think some get confused on what Van's sells and what their strategy is. Van's does not compete with Cirrus and Cessna. They sell a kit that can be customized to the customers needs. And not just any kit, the most popular kit in the world. When the history books are written about the reciprocating engine driven aeroplane, it will most likely be the most sold kit ever!
Strategy can be defined in 3 ways:
1. What does our customer value?
2. What are we going to say no to?
3. What are we going to be best at?
Van's has customers that value a safe kit (I fly with my two daughters all over our country because of the trust I have in this kit), with a sporty "fun" feel, that is efficient and affordable to fly, that can be built by the average person at a competitive cost. (1/6 - 1/7 the cost of a Cirrus SR22 GTS $724,900  - Very competitive)
Think of all the things they have to say no to. How many people have asked them for a certified version of every model? Different engine support?
Does it jeopardize safety? Does it add cost with no performance increase? I think Van's does a great job holding to their strategy.
Van's is the product leader in the kit built market. Van's is the best at selling kit aircraft that have that "RV" feel, which is a fun flying plane. Like they say, "It flies the way a plane should fly". Even when they branched out to a 2-seat side by side, 4-seat, LSA, they have always delivered the best flying and complete kit in its class. Their culture and systems are designed over the past 30+ years to deliver the results they get. It would be interesting to see how their sales process has evolved over the past 30 years. How did Van sell the RV-3 and RV-4? I think we would all be surprised by the evolution and improvements in all their systems.
Sure some are offended by this thread because we have a more personal relationship with them and know what a great job they do.
So can they improve? Of course. Everyone can improve and become better at what they do? Somehow I was able to understand that Van's delivered on all of my values I listed above without talking to them once.
I would bet this is their experience as well and they may even have data on this.
As the RV community grows and the 8000+ sales force spreads the word, the demographics and values of the new potential customers may be changing. Maybe Van's will have a Platinum RV-10 that comes with a free suite at the Hilton, caviar, and an instrument panel that smells of rich mahogany next year at Oshkosh.  I had to throw that Anchorman quote in there. They would do that because that is what they may think the customer values.
I don't think anyone at Van's would turn down comments but be polite, respectful and genuine. And remember, your talking about the most successful GA company this century! (so far)
__________________
Scott Schmidt
Salt Lake City, UT
RV-10 N104XP (1280 Hours)
RV-12 N321UT (Sold)
Last edited by ScottSchmidt : 08-06-2013 at 12:16 AM.
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08-06-2013, 03:15 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Posts: 317
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I have been biting my tongue on this one for the last three days. I have honestly tried not to respond, but it has come to the point where I can?t keep quiet any longer.
My first experience with Van?s, in person, was also my first trip to OSH. I didn?t go to their tent looking for a glitzy sales pitch or looking to be sold on an RV, nor to ask them for a free demo ride. By the time I went to their tent, I already knew I wanted to build an RV-8. I just wanted to know how to go about buying a kit.
I arrived in the middle of the week and after looking at several RV?s on the grounds and talking to a few owners, I went over to talk to Van?s. I am somewhat an introvert so I waited until the crowd died down before I approached them. In fact, I had to make three different trips to the tent before I was able to get to the counter. When I walked up to the counter, there was no other customer anywhere in the tent. There were four people behind the counter, two at the left end and two at the right end who I recognized as very senior members of Van?s staff by having seen their pictures in the RVator. Both pairs of people were having conversations among themselves. I walked up to the counter, closer to the senior members, but still somewhat between the two pairs. As I was walking toward the counter, the two guys on the right end made eye contact with me then went back to their conversation. I stood at the counter, waiting for them to finish thinking they?ll get to me in a minute. After what seemed like a surprising amount of time, they stopped talking to each other and turned around and just looked at me with a straight face. No smile, no ?Hi, how are you?? or ?Can I help you??, nothing. So I said, ?Hi, can I ask you a question?? The response I got was ?Go ahead.? So I introduced myself and said I wanted to build an RV-8, and how do I go about ordering a Kit? I was told I needed to order a preview plans set and was given a package with some forms to fill out to send back in. I said ?Thank-you? and one of them said ?You?re welcome?. I thought this was kind of strange since I just basically told them I would like to give them tens of thousands of my hard earned dollars and I?m the one thanking them??
I have called Van?s tech support a few times and also sent an email to them on occasion. My emails have always been answered promptly and answered my questions. The best phone support I?ve gotten was from Tom Green. He always seemed very nice and always willing to help. I made it a point to say Hi to him and thank him whenever I saw him at OSH or SNF? There is another guy that works the show for Van?s that I have seen the past couple of years. I do not know his name, but he is a tall guy with a closely trimmed beard. He has also been very nice to deal with. I always look for him when I am at the show and have a question.
Fast forward to a later date when I received my fuselage kit. In the shipment was a couple of items I did not order and didn?t recognize. They also were not on my packing list anywhere. I had a question I wanted to ask tech support anyway, so I thought I would call, ask the question and at the same time tell them they sent me something I did not order. I called at the designated tech support time and got an individual who did not seem to want to answer the phone that day. Before I ever got to my question, I mentioned I was planning to use Grove gear on my plane. At this point, you would have thought I was asking his permission to date his underage daughter or something. He went into a tirade about people making modifications to their planes and how they were not RV?s anymore. This went on for a couple of minutes and I just sat there and took it. When it was over, I asked him what he wanted me to do with the parts. He said he would transfer me to sales for them to take care of it. No thank you from him for calling about the parts or anything. I haven?t called tech support since.
When the person in sales answered, he was very nice and appreciative of me calling about them.
I have dealt with a lot of different vendors over the course of this build, some of whom have never made a dime off of me, and nowhere else have I ever experienced the kind of condescending attitude that I have gotten from a few of the people at Van?s.
__________________
Bill Settle
RV-8 N38CW (Reserved)
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08-06-2013, 03:26 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Prosser,WA
Posts: 272
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Great insight
Well said Scott.....I like the confidence you have and give us, to feel safe with your family on board of these awesome aircrafts.
Quick story related to Cirrus( not to knock Cirrus because they are first class aircraft as well...just not for everyone) We were about to buy a Cirrus two years ago, flew several, did prebuy, deposit ect......prebuy came back as a few little things needed....$5800 worth of work which was all of few worn control bushings, landing light, tail strike protector and few other minor things....we took step back and went back to RV10....did factory tour and demo flight.....about 500 feet down runway on lift off the decision was made what we were going to buy, we just had to build our dream aircraft. The experience of the the Vans tour and them spending the time with us to feel comfortable with the decision, there was no sales pitch needed. I also underestimated how much I would enjoy the build and how great it is to have the family out in the shop night after night even if they just sitting on a chair watching. This experience will change our life and bond our family and you cannot buy that anywhere....
Even if our aircraft never flies, I personally have grown as a person and bonded with family to far reward the cost of the kit. That said, We hope to have our 10 to paint in September.
The experience of Vans family, the relationships we build, and the satisfaction of progress is unexplainable till you experience them.
__________________
Jack Maljaars
Rv10
N819DJ flying. 350hrs +
Dues 2015 pd
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08-06-2013, 04:20 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Marshall TX (KASL)
Posts: 1,783
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Bill S. - your post - wow.
Awhile back a new local family-run diner opened up. (Very rural area.) Went a couple of times. Pretty poor service. Orders not right. Drinks left empty. Waited on by a teenage son who was absolutely clear in his demeanor that he wanted to be ANYWHERE else. Other family kids roaming around behind the counter, indicating a very non-businesslike non-serious attitude. When paying at the register the (I think) owner asked "how was everything?" "Oh, just fine," as we walked out never to return.
Why is that? And why would most of us, frankly, do the exact same thing? Because we don't want to be critical unless REALLLLLLY pushed. If I had a small business I would kill for frank feedback, particularly if it was critical - because it is so rare. They say for every one customer that actually complains, there are dozens that feel the same but say nothing.
Honest criticism from people that love your products is highly valuable. The customer may not always be right but they are always the customer. I too have received excellent customer service and technical support from Vans in my RV-12 build - on issues ranging from the dumbest newbie questions to pointing out a Skyview error that resulted in plans revisions and wiring harness changes. Excellent response in those areas.
I believe the motivations behind the criticisms are pure and the issue is both real and significant. No one likes to be criticized but great improvements can come from it if faced squarely and with some swallowed pride and abandoned excuses. This is difficult in our realm because there is no greater concentration of ego per square foot than a gathering of pilots, (and I include surgeons).
Given the quality of the products, I have wondered why Vans market share isn't even higher. This could be a reason.
Last edited by Bill_H : 08-06-2013 at 04:33 PM.
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08-06-2013, 05:47 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 347
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Last year I arrived at the latter part of Osh and they didn't have any decent swag left and the crowds were insufferable. I could hardly get in a question.
This year I was at the Vans tent at the crack of Sunday morning before anyone was around. Greeted each Vans person that arrived, hung around until the goodies were displayed and kindly asked if I could make some purchases.
Then on Monday morning Van arrived.. I'd never met him before but as he stepped out of the mini-van I jabbed my hand out, introduced myself, told him I had a -9A and thanked him for designing such a wonderful airplane.
I was all agog and felt like I was in high school asking a pretty girl out on a date. anyway...
That, and the people I met, really made the trip.
__________________
***********************************
--2008 RV-9A
Austin TX
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08-06-2013, 06:42 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8CW
...He went into a tirade about people making modifications to their planes and how they were not RV?s anymore. This went on for a couple of minutes and I just sat there and took it. When it was over, I asked him what he wanted me to do with the parts. He said he would transfer me to sales for them to take care of it. No thank you from him for calling about the parts or anything. I haven?t called tech support since....
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Interesting, as I had a similar experience a few years ago at Copperstate when the -10 was still fairly new. I won't bore you with the details, but don't even discuss the possibility of a taildragger -10 within earshot of a Vans employee! That little exchange left a sour and lasting impression on me and a buddy.
Rule #1 in business: Never, ever berate or argue with your customers in public!
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
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Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
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08-06-2013, 07:01 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: palm coast fl.
Posts: 945
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Vans tent
I ordered my 8 kit without ever talking to a Vans factory rep at an airshow . I compared all the planes that I was interested in ,and based my choice on how much a completed airframe was going to cost me . Value vs Dollar. No kit plane manufacturer comes close to value and completeness of an RV .
If you want to be schmoozed and talk to a bunch of sales people and watch a prototype fly on a flat sceen tv check out Icon Aircraft . They have the biggest fanciest tent , carpet , friendly sales people , ready to take a deposit , on a Plane that will never make it to market .
Guess you could sit at home thumbing thru the glossy brochure , thinking how nice you were greeted at their tent compared to Vans .
I kind of like the lack of fluff at Vans tent , maybe true builders see thru the fluff , might be why they have such a high completion rate , builders not dreamers .
__________________
Rv8
N 666 TA
First Flight 2-3-2015 🚀
2017 donation paid
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08-06-2013, 07:48 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: MERRITT ISLAND, FL
Posts: 360
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Dear Duckguy,
A word(s) of advice. Next time you post try a less controversial topic such as:
1. Are P-51 paint schemes really stupid.
2. What is better: slider or tilt up canopy.
3. Tail wheel aircraft should be banned: true or false.
4. Side-by-side seating is indicative of an insecure personality.
5. I'm installing my Lycoming IO-720 in my RV3 and I need some advice.
But to your experience at Oshkosh you can?t extrapolate the Van?s booth contact to the Van's product and product support. They are 180 out. Van?s doesn?t do the Booth Babe, back slapping, hail fellow; well met routine. Booth Babes will tell you anything to make a sale. You?ll be better informed to find out what the customers think and this Forum is a good place to start. Go buy your RV8 emp kit and get on with it.
__________________
Don Stiver
RV8 "Little Pill" N6371S, Merritt Island, Fl.
BPE IO-390, Dual P-mag, MT 3-blade, AFP system
Steen Skybolt: Sold
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08-06-2013, 08:11 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
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Might be a good time to remind the more sensitive members that just because some of us find Vans marketing and "bedside manner" a little lacking does NOT mean he offers a bad product, his employees club baby seals for entertainment, or that he needs to offer golf memberships at an exclusive country club. It simply means that with very little or zero financial investment, there could be a "better" face for the company.
Yes, he has a very successful product - but imagine how much better it could be with a little more effort!
And BTW Don, I'm considering your #5! (but I'm going to use a -4... A -3 would just be silly.)
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
Last edited by Toobuilder : 08-06-2013 at 08:13 PM.
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