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  #41  
Old 08-22-2006, 08:24 AM
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dan dan is offline
 
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I break the "break" down into 4 components:

BANK-YANK-IDLE-ACQUIRE

1. BANK. I use 60 degrees. Use whatever you're comfortable with. 60 degrees is kind of the magic number because while it's a "steep" turn, it's legal without chutes and still provides plenty of loading in a level turn. If you're flying in formation with RVs, you'll use 60 degrees. If you're solo, use whatever bank angle you and your passengers are comfortable with. In terms of where to break...tower will instruct you in some cases. When "pilot's discretion" or at an uncontrolled field, and traffic is not a factor, I like to break within the first 1000' of the runway.

2. YANK. It's not really a yank, but that's the word that seems to stick when I brief it. It's a blending in of elevator to make it a level turn. A 60 degree level turn requires 2G. People have mentioned "2-3G" in previous posts, but 3G is way too much imho. And this is not a -7 vs. -9 thing. 60 degrees, 2G, is a standard private pilot maneuver. This isn't acro. But again be conscientious of passengers!!

3. IDLE. As the turn is established, pull the throttle to idle. Thus begins the 2nd aspect of "braking." You've loaded the plane up, which decelerates you. Now bring your thrust to a minimum, and the speed just goes away. Before you know it, you're rolling out on downwind at or below flap speed. I don't even want to hear it about "shock cooling." It just doesn't happen in this case. You're going from a situation of high cooling (coming in at cruise power), and you're ending up with a cooling deficit (slow on downwind and getting even slower). There simply is not enough opportunity (time) for cooling to occur. The oil gets warmer and the cyls remain stable after you chop the throttle and land so quickly. Don't believe me? Try it.

4. ACQUIRE. Find the traffic you're following, and do it RIGHT NOW! If you're in formation, you're acquiring the ship you're following -- and make sure you've got the right guy! If you're solo, you're perhaps acquiring the traffic that was on downwind or base, or the guy out on final...whatever. Just be sure you maintain situational awareness through this turn, and don't cut anybody off. You're also "acquiring" the numbers. A 60 degree turn will bring you in very tight on downwind if you hold that bank angle throughout 180 degrees of turn. Either relax the bank angle halfway through, or be prepared to be in tight. I like being in tight. Close to the runway = safety in my book, but obviously you'll need to adjust if other traffic is in the pattern. But the point is, acquire your traffic and the runway you're landing on. Don't land on a parellel runway!

At this point you're on downwind and you're at or below flap speed. Full flaps, land your airplane.
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Last edited by dan : 08-22-2006 at 08:34 AM.
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  #42  
Old 08-22-2006, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zspivey
It looks as if we have hijacked this thread. The overhead discussion is great. Although my RV-8 is still at the wings stage, the few minutes of stick time I have in friend's RV's have convinced me that the RV begs to be flown in an overhead pattern.

How about those of you who fly the overhead giving us some techniques. O.K. we fly initial at cruise speed. What bank angle do you use when you pitchout? What power setting? Where is the best point to start the break? Over the numbers or midfield? Where do you drop your flaps?

After I get my RV-8 in the air I will probably experiment at altitude before I try one in the pattern, still having some numbers to start will help the learning process.

Thanks
Zack:

Read Dan's post.

I am only going to add that the faster you are going when you break, the less you will slow down in the turn. More energy takes more distance to slow down. The formation flyers will try to be in level fight at inital doing about 120 KIAS when doing the overhead. As a flight, the same speed helps get all the guys doing the same thing the same way each time and makes for a visually appealing formation arrival.

I once was out flying gliders with the local EAA chapter at another airport. We flew there in our airplanes and had a great time. One of the contollers with us was due at work and was running late. He flew out in an Europa and to work at POC in my RV. We departed HMT and I picked up flight following to go through the ONT Class C airspace. I told POC tower that I wanted the overhead. We were decending at cruise power and had a GS of 170 Kts. I broke left (pitched out to downwind) and slowed to 90 KTS GS. We landed and I taxed to the tower and went in to talk to the other controllers. They said that I was on radar doing 170 Knots and slowed to a 90 Knot downwind. They were suprised at the speed reduction and expected that I would have flown a pattern more like the P-51 with less speed reduction. From 170 Knots to 90 Knots in 180 degree of 60 degree bank turn caught on radar at a towered airport.
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  #43  
Old 08-23-2006, 01:00 AM
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RV9798 RV9798 is offline
 
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Default COOL

This thread is getting cooler by the minute. The overhead break I will do it in the future. I will just slow down in the Circuit (That's how we call "pattern" in Canada,eh) and prepare well in advance. Yesterday I flew 5 hrs. Touch and goes, stalls , slow flight, sideslips, steepturns, highspeed cruising. Still I came in too high and had to go around. I am not complaining...I rather have a good glide ratio than a poor one. I am dying to go places....6 hrs to go and a climb to time test at gross weight (for Transport Canada). Then the world is mine........

Pete
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  #44  
Old 08-23-2006, 06:01 AM
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Default Overhead Pattern

Guys,

Thanks for the hints on how to fly an overhead. I am eager to try it.
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  #45  
Old 08-23-2006, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV9798
This thread is getting cooler by the minute. The overhead break I will do it in the future. I will just slow down in the Circuit (That's how we call "pattern" in Canada,eh) and prepare well in advance. Yesterday I flew 5 hrs. Touch and goes, stalls , slow flight, sideslips, steepturns, highspeed cruising. Still I came in too high and had to go around. I am not complaining...I rather have a good glide ratio than a poor one. I am dying to go places....6 hrs to go and a climb to time test at gross weight (for Transport Canada). Then the world is mine........

Pete

Pete, will you be flying to Van's homecoming? You'll need your paperwork signed off by the local Transport Canada office (I used the one in Abbotsford and got same-day sign-off).

A few of us are planning to fly from Langley, weather permitting.

Let's see... cut to idle power over Seattle, and you should be able to glide it in to Aurora from there... :-)

Vern Little
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  #46  
Old 08-23-2006, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan
I break the "break" down into 4 components:

BANK-YANK-IDLE-ACQUIRE

<snip>
3. IDLE. As the turn is established, pull the throttle to idle. Thus begins the 2nd aspect of "braking." <snip>
.
Dan I agree 100% with everything you wrote, except that I would stress a gentle (over several seconds) pull to idle if you have a constant-speed prop. This prevents your FP-equipped wingman from getting a very close look at that little spot you screwed up on your elevator trim tab ;-P

James Freeman
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  #47  
Old 08-23-2006, 05:02 PM
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John C John C is offline
 
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Default some -9A FP numbers

Lets get back to the original question about slowing down RV-9As with a fixed pitch prop, and turn backs following an engine failure on takeoff. With this discussion, I just had to take off work and refresh my memory. First, Kevin Horton had good advice on other threads. Do your stall series so that you know your stall speeds. For my ?9A, stall is 55 mph INDICATED flaps up and 50 mph with full flaps ? 30 gallons of fuel and me, power at idle.

Until you are comfortable with your stall speeds, carry the extra speed, make those long, ugly patterns and land long as necessary.

Now, to slowing down - the change that had the most impact for me was lowering the ground idle speed to 600-700 rpm. Mine was at 900 and the airplane would go and go and go with full flaps. When set for a 650 rpm ground idle, the airplane comes down much better. Next is to fly at the slower speeds, once you are confident of the stall speeds. At 80, the airplane goes forever. 70 in the pattern is much better, 65 on calm days is great. Shallow bank angles are very adequate because of the slower speeds. If it is gusty or there are strong winds, I go back to 80 and make the long, ugly patterns.

I?ll step through what works for me. Pull partial throttle to descend to traffic pattern altitude and slow to 150 mph to enter the 45. At the entry to the 45, level off, pull the power, turn downwind, a slight 50 feet climb works wonders, or go from 50 feet below to 50 feet above pattern altitude if needed (likely not). At 100 start the flaps down and by the time the flaps are ? down you are normally below 90 so continue to full flaps. Continue to slow to 70, add power (1200 to 1300 rpm is close) to maintain 70 until abeam of the numbers. If not slowed, wait to start the descent until 70. Abeam of the numbers or at 70, pull the power, and maintain 65-70 on downwind, base, and final. Cut the corners as necessary. As you learn, you will have to resort less and less to adding power on final. Over the threshold at 60 or even less on a still day, and touch down at 50 with the stick well aft.

Even after touch down, need to get out of there? Full power, lot of rudder, and you will just levitate off of the runway, just remember to use a lot of rudder. I tried a full flaps takeoff just to see what would happen. No problem, takes off quick, climbs great (of course somewhat less that no flaps), just don?t level off and overspeed the flaps.


Now, for the second apart - while I was reconfirming the numbers above, I tried some simulated power losses after takeoff. I have a lot of glider time so steep banks at low speeds all day long is called thermaling. You will need to practice at altitude to get comfortable. I tried a number of different scenarios, was not particularly skilled at maintaining bank angle or airspeeds, but ? the altitude losses were from 250 feet to 400 feet in most cases, much less than I had anticipated. Recognize that the altitude loss would be greater with a windmilling prop rather than at idle. Does anyone have data to show the difference?

A typical scenario - I was climbing at 85 mph, pulled the power, let the speed and nose drop for several seconds (like hands off), then roll into a 40-50 degree bank while pushing first and then pulling to maintain 75 to 85. I made a 180 degree turn then rolled level still at 75 to 85. Use ground references because the compass is really spinning. Your eyes need to be outside and on the ASI anyway. The nose did not go very far below the horizon. Of course, at 3000 to 4000 feet agl, you do not have the pucker factor or the view of the ground close by, no maneuvering to align with the runway (as George points out you need more than 180 degrees of turning (both left and right) to get back to the runway, more like 270 degree). You may perceive it very differently in a real emergency.

This maneuver in a ?9A FP is much more like flying gliders than the Cessnas, Cherokees or RVs with constant speed props.

Those practice turn backs at 80-85 with minimum altitude loss were consistent with those long, ugly patterns when flown at 80 mph. The airplane does not come down very fast when flown at 80-85.
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  #48  
Old 08-23-2006, 10:03 PM
jclark jclark is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV6_flyer
Zack:

Read Dan's post.

I am only going to add that the faster you are going when you break, the less you will slow down in the turn. More energy takes more distance to slow down. The formation flyers will try to be in level fight at inital doing about 120 KIAS when doing the overhead. As a flight, the same speed helps get all the guys doing the same thing the same way each time and makes for a visually appealing formation arrival.

I once was out flying gliders with the local EAA chapter at another airport. We flew there in our airplanes and had a great time. One of the contollers with us was due at work and was running late. He flew out in an Europa and to work at POC in my RV. We departed HMT and I picked up flight following to go through the ONT Class C airspace. I told POC tower that I wanted the overhead. We were decending at cruise power and had a GS of 170 Kts. I broke left (pitched out to downwind) and slowed to 90 KTS GS. We landed and I taxed to the tower and went in to talk to the other controllers. They said that I was on radar doing 170 Knots and slowed to a 90 Knot downwind. They were suprised at the speed reduction and expected that I would have flown a pattern more like the P-51 with less speed reduction. From 170 Knots to 90 Knots in 180 degree of 60 degree bank turn caught on radar at a towered airport.
Ditto all of the above ... PLUS ...

For those of you that may have a fixed pitch (especially the skinny wood ones like I have :-) ) propellers, note that your ability to slow down in the amount of space being discussed, will be somewhat hampered. Thus a ***slight*** nose up attitude may be in order once you have masde the 180. I try to be right at flap extension speed at the point of completing the 180 degree turn. Depending on where the break was initiated, I may add partial or all so as to land at the targetted spot with little or no power change.

And those that fly formation (especially if you have ever flown with Stu or Mike) know good and well that you do NOT descend BEFORE the point at which the ship ahead of you descend, so as to not put the last ship in the weeds before landing. :-)

James
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  #49  
Old 08-24-2006, 07:06 AM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John C
Lets get back to the original question about slowing down RV-9As with a fixed pitch prop, and turn backs following an engine failure on takeoff........

This maneuver in a ?9A FP is much more like flying gliders than the Cessnas, Cherokees or RVs with constant speed props.

Those practice turn backs at 80-85 with minimum altitude loss were consistent with those long, ugly patterns when flown at 80 mph. The airplane does not come down very fast when flown at 80-85.
Excellent report, John. The 9 IS a different machine with fixed pitch prop and its 28 foot wing.

I am very interested in the performance of your airplane with the fixed pitch prop. How does take off roll compare to Van's 250-400' number? Would you feel comfortable flying out of 2200' of grass?

dd
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  #50  
Old 08-24-2006, 07:15 AM
N523RV N523RV is offline
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John,

What is your sink rate on short final at 65mph and what RPM are you carrying? I've found that in my FP 9A that if I get below 70 IAS on final my sink rate gets pretty high and my flare gets pretty nose high in order to break it. I try to keep it right at 70 all the way down final with no power and bleed it off as I cross the numbers. I tried doing 65mph approaches but had a tendency to 'plop' it on a bit and the nose got too high in the flare to break the sink rate. Probably need to go out and do some more practice at the slower speeds some time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John C
Now, to slowing down - the change that had the most impact for me was lowering the ground idle speed to 600-700 rpm. Mine was at 900 and the airplane would go and go and go with full flaps. When set for a 650 rpm ground idle, the airplane comes down much better. Next is to fly at the slower speeds, once you are confident of the stall speeds. At 80, the airplane goes forever. 70 in the pattern is much better, 65 on calm days is great. Shallow bank angles are very adequate because of the slower speeds. If it is gusty or there are strong winds, I go back to 80 and make the long, ugly patterns.
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