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Ramp checked!

RV7A Flyer

Well Known Member
Patron
First ramp check in a quarter century of flying...all in all, a very professional and by-the-book experience. The inspector happily produced his ID, we chatted a bit about where I'd flown from (turned out we both grew up there), then pulled out his iPad and checked off that all the paperwork was in order (license, medical, photo ID, A/W cert, registration and Op Lims), and then just asked (as part of the safety part, I guess) to see that seat belts and harnesses were operable. 5 minutes max, then with the official part over, we chatted about the RV and what a great plane it is :).

Only curious part to me, which I hadn't heard before, was the seat belt/harness check.

We also talked for a bit about how the FAA has their new compliance "philosophy", and what that means in terms of these inspections in general. An interesting discussion, nice fella, no hassle at all.
 
Where did this happen? Glad to hear it was done in a professional way.
 
Maybe it's just in Canada, but I thought ramp checks were a thing of the past. I seem to recall my flight instructor 22 years ago state they are seldom done anymore. The equivalent type of random check of a road motor vehicle is not acceptable to the courts. If the authority (in Canada) was to find something amiss without a valid reason to search, the charge could be thrown out. Ie lacking probable cause, profiling, carding, harassment etc. In other words there would have to be a valid reason (driving infraction, lights not working) for the police to pull you over in order to have a "legal" look inside your vehicle. Why would it be any different for a personal aircraft?

Bevan
 
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Maybe it's just in Canada, but I thought ramp checks were a thing of the past. I seem to recall my flight instructor 22 years ago state they are seldom done anymore. The equivalent type of random check of a road motor vehicle is not acceptable to the courts. If the authority (in Canada) was to find something amiss without a valid reason to search, the charge could be thrown out. Ie lacking probable cause, profiling, carding, harassment etc. In other words there would have to be a valid reason (driving infraction, lights not working) for the police to pull you over in order to have a "legal" look inside your vehicle. Why would it be any different for a personal aircraft?

Bevan

In the US they are legal and relatively common for part 121/135 ops--less so for part 91 ops but they do happen hence the OP.
 
Maybe it's just in Canada, but I thought ramp checks were a thing of the past. I seem to recall my flight instructor 22 years ago state they are seldom done anymore. The equivalent type of random check of a road motor vehicle is not acceptable to the courts. If the authority (in Canada) was to find something amiss without a valid reason to search, the charge could be thrown out. Ie lacking probable cause, profiling, carding, harassment etc. In other words there would have to be a valid reason (driving infraction, lights not working) for the police to pull you over in order to have a "legal" look inside your vehicle. Why would it be any different for a personal aircraft?

Bevan
I don't know about Canada, but here in the US the difference is that FAA violations they are looking for are administrative not criminal violations. The 5th amendment issues you mention only apply during criminal, not administrative, violations. Besides the law specifically states the FAA can do these inspections.

:cool:
 
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My son was ramp checked in the middle of his Privet Pilot Flight Exam (not sure what airport, but in VA). He said it went quick and was professional. Personally I think that was in poor taste. The kid was under enough pressure already. As soon as the inspector found out it was an exam I think he should have walked away.
 
Only curious part to me, which I hadn't heard before, was the seat belt/harness check.

Pure speculation: sounds like a backdoor request to enter the aircraft. IIRC, an inspector may act on anything he can see from the outside, but may not enter an aircraft without permission.

Not that it makes an great difference with most RVs, as everything is visible from the outside anyway.

Pure curiosity...was your canopy open or shut at the time?
 
Ramp checks

My only "ramp check" in 38 years of flying ASMEL & Sea, hot air balloons, came in a public park during a windy inflation of my balloon- a potentially dangerous operation- inflator fan running, burner ignited, pay-passengers serving as just-trained assistants in the process. I told the inspector, who ran me down as I was hustling around the nearly-ready-to-heat, fully inflated with cold air, still laying on the ground balloon, that my primary responsibility was the safety of all around me, and that I could NOT stop to be interviewed, etc. Told him he was welcome to crawl into the laying-on-its-side basket and fish out all the appropriate paperwork for the pouches it was in, but then he would have to step aside in the interest of safety. He did check the paperwork on his own, but then backed off and assisted in the inflation. Be assertive. And they can be good guys. Ben
 
The AOPA page says the inspector may not board without knowledge of the crew, but is authorized to check the ELT battery, VOR operation, and seat belts. It would seem the inspector must be granted access to the interior.


My understanding is they can't board the aircraft without the pilot's/crew knowledge (ie you left your plane open while you went into the terminal, they walk by your unattended and climb in, etc) but once they ask you can't deny them access as long as you aren't being unduly detained by the request. Once inside they can only inspect certain items.
 
I got ramped as a student pilot, right after a training flight. Had my CFI in the right seat, and when he saw the FAA guy on the way out remembered that he didn't have his wallet... so no CFI ticket or medical. He managed to disappear around the tail of the airplane while I distracted the FAA guy.

We had a nice little chat, then he moved on to the 135 King Air that taxied in. I suspect that was his real reason for being there, I was just "lucky".
 
Maybe it's just in Canada, but I thought ramp checks were a thing of the past. I seem to recall my flight instructor 22 years ago state they are seldom done anymore. The equivalent type of random check of a road motor vehicle is not acceptable to the courts. If the authority (in Canada) was to find something amiss without a valid reason to search, the charge could be thrown out. Ie lacking probable cause, profiling, carding, harassment etc. In other words there would have to be a valid reason (driving infraction, lights not working) for the police to pull you over in order to have a "legal" look inside your vehicle. Why would it be any different for a personal aircraft?

Bevan

Nope they are still happening in Canada. They showed up at my airport this summer and checked everyone in sight. It is very rare, I think mostly to due to budget cuts.
 
My understanding is they can't board the aircraft without the pilot's/crew knowledge (ie you left your plane open while you went into the terminal, they walk by your unattended and climb in, etc) but once they ask you can't deny them access as long as you aren't being unduly detained by the request. Once inside they can only inspect certain items.

You certainly can deny them access to board your aircraft. You have the right NOT to consent to a search (that whole 4th amendment thing, IIRC). They can only board your aircraft IF you give them permission.

Pure speculation: [seat belt inspection] sounds like a backdoor request to enter the aircraft.

I looked up the latest FAA regulations, and as stated, they can check the VOR accuracy, ELT battery, and seatbelts. I assume if they had to board the aircraft to do any of this, they simply wouldn't be able to if you didn't allow them to board. And FWIW, there's no way to check my ELT battery without me removing the rear bulkhead...ain't gonna happen. So I don't think it's a "backdoor" way to violate the Constitution. :)

The 5th amendment issues you mention only apply during criminal not administrative violations.

I think you mean 4th Amendment (and probably 14th as well), not 5th. IANAL, but I believe one's Constitutional rights are always in effect. You always have the right to refuse consent to a search, or to remain silent, or to equal protection under the law, etc. I'm sure someone with more experience will chime in here.
 
You certainly can deny them access to board your aircraft. You have the right NOT to consent to a search (that whole 4th amendment thing, IIRC). They can only board your aircraft IF you give them permission.



I looked up the latest FAA regulations, and as stated, they can check the VOR accuracy, ELT battery, and seatbelts. I assume if they had to board the aircraft to do any of this, they simply wouldn't be able to if you didn't allow them to board. And FWIW, there's no way to check my ELT battery without me removing the rear bulkhead...ain't gonna happen. So I don't think it's a "backdoor" way to violate the Constitution. :)



I think you mean 4th Amendment (and probably 14th as well), not 5th. IANAL, but I believe one's Constitutional rights are always in effect. You always have the right to refuse consent to a search, or to remain silent, or to equal protection under the law, etc. I'm sure someone with more experience will chime in here.

I stand corrected. I did a little more research and it appears that you can't deny access for 121/135 ops only. Part 91 can be denied but the inspector can opt to get a federal warrant. Having said that, it would also appear, anecdotally, that based upon actual inspector comments that for 91 ops they are only generally interested in the bare minimums as far as the inspection goes unless they discover a discrepancy. Now what I've read is a bit contradictory as to the FAA's authority and whether a ramp check is a really a search or not, but I feel there's no need to be overly cautious during a ramp check -- My own plan is to cooperate and move on.

Now for a LEO (Police, CBP, etc) stop, that's a completely different animal and I would definitely recommend exercising extreme caution and understanding your rights inside and out.
 
I stand corrected. I did a little more research and it appears that you can't deny access for 121/135 ops only. Part 91 can be denied but the inspector can opt to get a federal warrant.

Which requires probable cause (and in the U.S., refusal to consent to a search can not be used as a reason). ETA: Apparently, the ASI can't get a warrant...they're not Law Enforcement officers. Would require a LE agency to file for a warrant with a court, and the FAA is not LE.

Having said that, it would also appear, anecdotally, that based upon actual inspector comments that for 91 ops they are only generally interested in the bare minimums as far as the inspection goes unless they discover a discrepancy. Now what I've read is a bit contradictory as to the FAA's authority and whether a ramp check is a really a search or not, but I feel there's no need to be overly cautious during a ramp check -- My own plan is to cooperate and move on.

Now for a LEO (Police, CBP, etc) stop, that's a completely different animal and I would definitely recommend exercising extreme caution and understanding your rights inside and out.

Totally agree.

As I said, the FAA guy was polite, professional, quick and friendly, and never stepped into the "search" arena, so we didn't even have to have that discussion.
 
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Criteria

The VOR checks and ELT battery checks pass/fail are pretty obvious.

What is the criteria for "checking" seatbelts?

Since a lot of us use racecar belts with no TSO can this cause a "fail" if the inspector gets picky?

Added

If it is only to Part 43, Appendix D then it should be OK...

(2) Seats and safety belts—for poor condition and apparent defects.
 
Pure speculation: sounds like a backdoor request to enter the aircraft. IIRC, an inspector may act on anything he can see from the outside, but may not enter an aircraft without permission.

Not that it makes an great difference with most RVs, as everything is visible from the outside anyway.

Pure curiosity...was your canopy open or shut at the time?


I was ramp checked while on a quick turn in a business jet and did not permit the inspector to board the aircraft. He asked to see the aircraft docs and RVSM manual which I provided outside of the aircraft. I could tell he wasn't thrilled to have not been allowed to board but didn't give us any trouble.
 
Belts and Harness

A few years ago I was parking very close to the FSDO office in the morning after my scheduled 135 freight runs. One morning a FSDO Inspector ramp checked my airplane. The pilots shoulder strap looked like a rat had chewed half way thru it. The inspector asked "what do you think I should do about that?". I responded I think you should ground the airplane. My phone call to my boss was probably the only time I actually enjoyed talking to him. He really had to scramble to get the airplane fixed for that nights run.
The 135 freight business is slowly evolving for the better but there are still far too many airplanes that should have gone to the scrapyard 20 years ago.
 
The only ramp check I ever got was at an airport a week after an airshow I was in at that airport. I got into a discrepancy with a few FAA guys there during the show, no big deal. When I got out of my plane I saw this government Ford sneaking around the hangars looking for someone to bother. They quickly drove right over to me and hopped out of the car. The lead guy asked me for my docs. I recognized him from the week before and I told him I am considering this as retaliatory harassment and would contact my attorney. He thanked me for my time, they got into their government Ford and left. I never did show him anything. And of course my wing man fled into the restaurant the second he saw the feds coming..... He might have said "Two's out", I don't know.

I have a friend of mine get ramp checked when he pulled his plane out of his hangar and taxied it to the fuel pit. Last I recall is you don't need ANY docs to taxi an aircraft from your hangar to the fuel pit. My friend was much nicer about it than I would have been..

That's the Van Nuys FSDO for ya...
 
Ramp Check

I was ramp checked while on a quick turn in a business jet and did not permit the inspector to board the aircraft. He asked to see the aircraft docs and RVSM manual which I provided outside of the aircraft. I could tell he wasn't thrilled to have not been allowed to board but didn't give us any trouble.
I seem to recall their protocol does not allow them to delay a flight. FAA has to be very careful with this especially with the high end corporate airplanes.
 
It can still happen

Maybe it's just in Canada, but I thought ramp checks were a thing of the past. I seem to recall my flight instructor 22 years ago state they are seldom done anymore. The equivalent type of random check of a road motor vehicle is not acceptable to the courts. If the authority (in Canada) was to find something amiss without a valid reason to search, the charge could be thrown out. Ie lacking probable cause, profiling, carding, harassment etc. In other words there would have to be a valid reason (driving infraction, lights not working) for the police to pull you over in order to have a "legal" look inside your vehicle. Why would it be any different for a personal aircraft?

Bevan

I had a rather superficial check in CYXE (Saskatoon) not so many years ago. A TC enforcement pilot in a C550 walked across the ramp from his jet and introduced himself politely with his ID after asking a few questions about the AC I was sitting in doing up the log books for the just completed flight. The ELT and tag were clearly in view as were all the logbooks so he never even asked to handle or inspect the paper. Really just a pleasant look and hello. It can still happen.
 
How does one perform a VOR check if there's no VOT signal on the airport and the airplane's not airborne? Hmmm? Records which might show a 30-day accuracy check do not need to be presented. I don't recall any FAR saying the VOR receiver (let's say your GTN750) needs to be marked in-op or out of cal. It's just not legal for IFR ops.

Considering ELTs are likely to be located beneath dozens of screws in an RV, I won't lose sleep over that one.

A favorite check-off item hereabouts a few years back was having a correction card for a wet compass. Easily observed without giving permission to board. Another good reason to rip out the old and install an EFIS.

John Siebold
 
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Fifty years of flying, 19,000 hours and I have had exactly three ramp checks. The last one was about five years ago at the Sebring Light Sport Aircraft show in Florida. Team of three FSDO inspectors randomly ramp checking aircraft/pilots in the remote parking area. Friendly, courteous, and lasted no more than a few minutes. Did not ask to board the aircraft. Checked paperwork and mostly asked questions about the airplane and it's performance.
 
Ramp checks

ALWAYS ASK TO SEE THE FAA INSPECTORS IDENTIFICATION 110A. If they don't have it do not let them close to your airplane. They have no right to be there. I had a new inspector (trainee) approach me at a fly-in at Wright Patterson AFB and I ask for his 110A and he didn't have one. I told him in a very loud voice to get away from my airplane, as far as I was concerned he was a terrorist. His supervisor was about 10 feet away and didn't know what to do. I explained the rules to the young man and showed him what the 110A looked like. End of discussion, I bet he presents his ID from now on.
 
I had 5 checks since I started flying my RV in 2011. Two by FAA and three by other agencies. All official inspectors were very courteous and respectful. None of them were specifically looking for violations but rather for compliance. I also had two staged checks by my friends and let me tell you those may be very uncomfortable first minute till you get the joke. The most stressful was in TN in 2011 when I landed at an airport after couple passes above fellow boaters and was waiting for my pickup. A presentable official looking lady entered the grounds came to my tiedowns, flashed an ID and asked for my airplane paperwork, my pilot license and current medical. Boy I thought that was fast. I thought of calling my buddy for a legal rep but then I saw my "limo driver" exited the same vehicle and smiled. He told his mother what to ask and being a corporate pilot he knew the procedure. It was a good laugh for all night. :D
 
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I had 5 checks since I started flying my RV in 2011. Two by FAA and three by other agencies.
Not at all surprised there! :p

I haven't been ramped yet, but am expecting to at some point. The concerning thing for me is CAsA have published several iterations of their "guidance for ramp checkees" kind of flyers, and the references within those flyers are completely incorrect, either relating to CPL holders, or contradicting what the guidance material says.

But you try telling that to an FOI. You've got a better chance of winning an argument with your missus!
 
Come April 30, 2017 I will have had my PPL 40 years. Never been ramped, got close one day. The airport manager told me where they were, I disappeared before they had a chance see me.
 
Years ago I was teaching a lady for a private and when she taxied in from her first solo a FISDO guy was there at the flight school hanger to greet her. It did not really bother her because she did not know what was happening. I knew the guy well enough to give him a hard time because I had done several 135 check rides with him so I pointed out that he could not see the runway from where he was and had no knowledge that she had been flying, thus there was no reason to ramp check anything. He wished her well in her taxi training and watched me cut her shirt tail off.
 
Confession Time

At the risk of being shunned from the sport flying community I am a retired 25 year veteran of the FAA Flight Standards Division. Most of my career was spent inspecting navaids but while assigned to a Regional Office in Texas our duties involved flying rental aircraft to various locations for ground maintenance support and site inspections for the implementation of the initial GPS approach procedures prior to publication during the early and mid nineties.
While preflighting a rental aircraft I was ramp checked by a pair of FSDO inspectors who introduced themselves with their ID's and Form 110A and asked
to see my credentials and the aircraft documents. I complied with their request and when they asked to see the aircraft maintenance logs I told them I inspected them the day before when I scheduled the aircraft and they were stored elsewhere but I would ask the FBO to make them available IF they needed to inspect them. They declined and wished me a safe flight. They were very courteous and professional throughout so I never displayed my FAA ID. I knew they are assigned a variety of onsite inspections for their monthly work program schedule same as me.

I spent my last six years as a Flight Operations Inspector for a very successful Part 121 operation and If we did not adhere to the handbook guidance we could be in more trouble than the customer.
 
At the risk of being shunned from the sport flying community I am a retired 25 year veteran of the FAA Flight Standards Division. Most of my career was spent inspecting navaids but while assigned to a Regional Office in Texas our duties involved flying rental aircraft to various locations for ground maintenance support and site inspections for the implementation of the initial GPS approach procedures prior to publication during the early and mid nineties.
While preflighting a rental aircraft I was ramp checked by a pair of FSDO inspectors who introduced themselves with their ID's and Form 110A and asked
to see my credentials and the aircraft documents. I complied with their request and when they asked to see the aircraft maintenance logs I told them I inspected them the day before when I scheduled the aircraft and they were stored elsewhere but I would ask the FBO to make them available IF they needed to inspect them. They declined and wished me a safe flight. They were very courteous and professional throughout so I never displayed my FAA ID. I knew they are assigned a variety of onsite inspections for their monthly work program schedule same as me.

I spent my last six years as a Flight Operations Inspector for a very successful Part 121 operation and If we did not adhere to the handbook guidance we could be in more trouble than the customer.

I don't see aircraft logbooks listed in the FAA ramp inspection procedure documents anywhere (for part 91).
 
Ramp Check

Here is the exact wording and the magic words on log books are:
"when available" Don't carry them in the airplane, period.

E. Aircraft Logbooks. Inspectors should check aircraft maintenance logbooks, when available, for currency and compliance with 14 CFR part 43, ?? 43.9(a) and 43.11(a). Aircraft maintenance records come in many styles. There is no standard form or format as long as the regulatory requirements (?? 43.9 and 43.11) for maintenance entries are provided.
 
Here is the exact wording and the magic words on log books are:
"when available" Don't carry them in the airplane, period.

E. Aircraft Logbooks. Inspectors should check aircraft maintenance logbooks, when available, for currency and compliance with 14 CFR part 43, ?? 43.9(a) and 43.11(a). Aircraft maintenance records come in many styles. There is no standard form or format as long as the regulatory requirements (?? 43.9 and 43.11) for maintenance entries are provided.

A lot of people keep them in the hangar, though. And if the ramp check occurs after you pull up to the hangar...well...are they "available"? :)

Or perhaps they're conveniently at home that particular day? <wink>
 
A lot of people keep them in the hangar, though. And if the ramp check occurs after you pull up to the hangar...well...are they "available"? :)

Or perhaps they're conveniently at home that particular day? <wink>

They are authorized to inspect the interior of the aircraft only with permission of the operator or with a federal warrant. I would say the same applies to my hangar.
 
They are authorized to inspect the interior of the aircraft only with permission of the operator or with a federal warrant. I would say the same applies to my hangar.

They're not LE, so they don't get warrants, but yes...they'd need permission to enter, I'd suspect, if the hangar was shut. Might be different if it was fully open, but I don't really know.

But the question was...what is meant by "available"? They're in the hangar, you're in the hangar, the plane's in the hangar...but the logs are in a drawer. Are they "available"? ;)
 
We had three FAA guys show up at a skydiving center (dropzone). After they dealt with the DZ, they started ramp checking everything that moved and in one case "grounded" a plane because they said the registration was out of date..... It was tied down, had not moved all day.

When they started doing that, I dropped off my rig and walked to the hangars. I told every single person I saw that the FAA was there and they were doing ramp checks on everything.

Sure enough they started walking to us, and as they got closer, all the hangar doors were being closed. By the time they got within conversational distance, all the hangar doors were closed and we were all sitting in chairs outside the hangars with soft drinks. They asked if we had planes at the airport and we all replied that we did. They asked if they were here, we said they were locked up in the hangars. They asked if they could see them, we said they were locked up in the hangars. They asked if they could just see the paperwork, we said they were locked up in the hangars. They started asking questions about the planes, we said they were locked up in the hangars. They asked if we were going to go fly today.... You guessed it, locked up in the hangar.

Finally they said they were not going to inspect us, just wanted to, "talk airplanes" with us.... I asked them if that was true why did they ask to see the paperwork already?

They left, upset we didn't let them look around.
 
Those "guys" were clearly going about it all wrong. Making their employer look bad and doing nothing to promote aviation in an already challenging climate.

Bevan
 
Formation Brief

Had one walk into a private residence (on airport) once during a formation briefing. Didn't identify himself to the group. I thought he was just a typical airport bum, like many others before. Heard him saying something about his airplane restoration project.

We did our brief and departed. Later on, some of my good buddies asked, "What'd you think of that FAA guy coming in to our briefing?" Couple of us had not heard he was a fed! Thanks for that heads-up, friends.

We did everything properly and had no issues. But I thought it was a little poor for him to not identify himself conspicuously to everyone present.
 
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