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Purchasing a flying RV: Gotchas?

B

bottlerocket

Member
I'm 100% ready to buy my first flying RV. I've decided on an RV7A with an IO360 CS and IFR. Beyond that I really have no idea what I am looking for. I fully intend on having a full inspection done on the aircraft I choose before purchasing, but this is more of the minutia.

It doesn't have to be 7A specific, but if it only applies to certain models please say so.

So for the actual topic: From everyone's experience, what are common (or even not so cpmmeon) gotchas with Van's aircraft? I know there is a near infinite number of combinations of motors, props, avionics, etc. But beyond that, what are things (especially those who have purchased theirs already flying) that you have run into that you REALLY wish you knew to look for when buying. Even if you would have purchased it anyway, things that gave you a moment of pause. And.... go
 
Caveat: things in the article on the main page about buying a flying RV are not fair game here Unless it's more specific. Yes we know to get all the paperwork and applicable manuals, etc.
 
All I was looking for was something nice firewall forward and fast. I was scared of getting a slow rv.

Make sure your plane can cool itself properly !

Because they are experimental there are a lot of things that can be left undone to a flying airplane !

I had to seal a lot of leaks in the cabin to get it warm enough in the winter.

Have someone that has built an rv go fly in it. Not just inspect it. You're going to have the honeymoon rv grin and will be so in love you will have full blinders on. Ok I did. Pick it apart, then live with what you choose and make it better. I'm proud of my improvements and I have many more. Hey you get what you pay for !

I was looking for something with low time. But something with too low of time is more likely to not have more of the little wrinkles ironed out. More time is better except when you're thinking about tbo which I was way too worried about. I laugh about getting 2000 hours in my rv. At my rate it's 20 years.
 
I have not purchased a flying RV, but it is something I consider, and I am always browsing the classifieds. One thing you may want to consider is being less rigid in what you are looking for. Builders can be nitpicky because they can do whatever they want within their budget constraints, but if you are buying a flying RV, you are buying someone else's vision, and in my years of window shopping I have rarely, if ever, found a plane for sale that is exactly how I would build mine. However, I have found several that would be close enough.
 
If it's a -6, check for the reinforcing tabs on the rudder pedals per Vans Service Bulletin.

A friend is flying a new to him -6A back to AZ today. When he picked it up back East he found it never had the tabs added, even though it had several conditional inspections from an A&P with the second owner.

Later, non-builder owners sometimes are not aware of Vans factory bulletins.
 
a few things

Get the conditional inspection list and use it all.

check the nose leg while nose wheel is in the air, should have zero play in close tolerance bolt.

check wiring, you will live with it, lay upside down and look under panel for general housekeeping and quality of components. An accurate wire diagram of that plane is a plus.

check engine compression on differential test, make sure instrument is properly calibrated; close the connector that goes to cyl, then both gauges should read 80 at the same time. If not it can still be used, but you need to know what to adjust 1st gauge so that 2nd gauge reads 80 when connector is closed.

look for leak marks under and around fuel tanks.

flight test; check ailerons are matched and level in level flight, ball stays in center at cruise speed, goes a reasonable speed (IAS of 165 knots minimum at 25 square and 2,000 msl), stalls are reasonable, steep turns and aileron action is smooth, not jerky or too touchy. All instruments are good, radios and navigation works good. Make a checklist, or 2; one for the preflight, another for the flight test. Get a conditional inspection list and use it all. After the flight test check the belly for oil and fuel leaks. Check the belly before flight so you know you have a clean start; if needed clean the belly before flight

this will prime the vaf well. Must go now, good luck!
 
Gotcha!

Chris,
When I bought my flying RV8, I read all the checklists, checked the paperwork, and had an experienced RV shop do the prebuy inspection. The pink certificate was there. Check! Flew the aircraft for three months before I discovered that the Operating Limitations document is part of the airworthiness Cert. No copy at FAA Records. Called FISDO. Aircraft grounded. Gotcha! However the FISDO was most helpful; they accepted a statement from the builder, and a proper sign off of all maneuvers ect. in the logbook, issued a new Operating Limitations document and sent me on my way. However, the process took more than a month!
 
az_gila said:
If it's a -6, check for the reinforcing tabs on the rudder pedals per Vans Service Bulletin.

A friend is flying a new to him -6A back to AZ today. When he picked it up back East he found it never had the tabs added, even though it had several conditional inspections from an A&P with the second owner.

Later, non-builder owners sometimes are not aware of Vans factory bulletins.
Click to expand...

Checking SB's are important (tank slosh also comes to mind), however accomplishment of the SB is at owner discretion and repairs or fixes are not required to be completed as part of the annual condition inspection unless a discrepancy with the part is found that would make the aircraft unsafe.
 
I bought a flying RV-6 in February. It was nearly 16 years old at the time. I've loved it ever since.

I concur with the advice given above.

One other thing: when I contacted Van's and asked them to add me to the list to be notified of any future Service Bulletins, they responded by sending me Waiver and Release of Liability Agreements. They declined to answer my question as to whether they would provide the SBs if I did not sign the agreements. That's OK; I was just curious...

I'm sure that's standard practice, but may be something you hadn't thought about already...
 
Purchase

We bought a 7a pretty much like you described. Biggest issue we had was lack of electrical diagrams. Ours had a nice grt efis setup with autopilot and ifr gps. With no wiring diagram it took a lot of time to figure out how everything was put together. The owner knew how to use most of it but did not wire it himself.
 
RV6airplanePilot said:
check wiring, you will live with it, lay upside down and look under panel for general housekeeping and quality of components.
Click to expand...

I have been looking for a couple of years.

Bring your camera and take many photos under the panel if you can't lay upside down.

The first thing I look at is the instrument panel, any sub panels and labeling. I can tell in a minute how much thought was put into its design and possibly the rest of the plane.

Everyone has different standards. If you are looking at the top dollar ones, I would expect it to be near flawless. All RV's look good in photos. Be ready to be disappointed when you see it in person.
 
Look closely

I think someone mentioned the "honeymoon" mentality. Good Analogy. Pretty paint can hid a lot of problems. I looked at an RV-6 recently that had the tail improperly installed. The bolts were not attached to the longerons. They had never been drilled. The forward spar of the horizontal stabilizer was only attached to the top skin!
Let someone who is experienced and has no emotional attachment (multiple builder/DAR) take a look at it for you. It will save you heartburn down the road.

Vic
 
One more thing!

Personality, both yours and the sellers.
Not all buyers and sellers are a good match.
It will be necessary for you to call the seller from time to time and ask about certain things concerning installation details or other missing information.
If you are lucky he will sign off on the annual inspection or better yet he might perform it with you the first time.

When I sold my 8, I had 1 buyer looking at my plane who I considered a poor candidate for an experimental airplane and a personality I did not like. He may not have liked me either, I didn't ask.
The one I did sell it to was a perfect match and after 5 years we still have contact and we occasionally visit.
Just another angle to think about besides all the technical advice you've gotten so far.
 
avionics upgrade

I am also considering purchasing a flying RV. Modernizing a panel from an older airplane seems very intimidating to me, probably beyond my capabilities. Are there shops that specialize in this sort of thing for RVs?
 
Yes

weh said:
I am also considering purchasing a flying RV. Modernizing a panel from an older airplane seems very intimidating to me, probably beyond my capabilities. Are there shops that specialize in this sort of thing for RVs?
Click to expand...

Walt, not necessarily specializing in instrument panel change-outs but building in general. Panel swaps are pretty common these days, with a lot of older steam gauge setups removed and replaced with modern 'glass.'

A friend of mine near here has done several.

Best,
 
how many hours????

we all look at ads for 200 hour TTAF planes with 100 hour engines SMOH or what have you. A creampuff right?
BE very aware that while all this may be true, the builder, over the 5-10 years of construction, may have acquired a LOT of parts off VAF, swap meets etc.....so don't be surprised if many systems, instruments, radios, tires, props, upholstery, etc. has a lot more time on it, and you may be replacing things before you expect.
 
Look closely at the edge distance, spacing and upset of the rivets (especially on the earlier kits).

Look for any "extra" holes drilled. Some builders don't seem to understand the significance of "primary structure" and think it's ok to swiss cheese the longerons with random, oversized, ragged holes so they can zip tie the wire harness in place.

Look for too much paint. If you can't see the rivet heads under the paint, someone went heavy on the gun and or filler. This can be especially significant on control surfaces (flutter). Also look to see if the counterbalances were drilled/finished before paint. They may have been balanced fine in bare aluminum, but now with an 1/8th inch of glossy paint, they're not even close.

Look at the weight and balance - some people do it before paint/finishing, and some apparently don't do it at all - they just use someone else's from the Internet.

Look for systems installation for clues that the builder actually read and understands AC 43-13 and/or basic aircraft construction practices. I've seen so many absolutely dangerous installations I'm left shaking my head sometimes. The main battery cable zip tied directly to the butter soft 3003 fuel lines, for example.
 
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As Walt mentioned earlier, check that the fuel tanks weren't sealed with sloshing sealant. Also just check for fuel tank leaks period. Seems like every used RV that has showed up as a "new to someone" airplane at my airport recently has had some amount of fuel tank leakage. We just pulled the tanks off the newest "arrival" this past weekend, and sure enough, the cork gaskets under the sending units are dried and cracked.
 
A few things I've learned...

I bought my flying RV7 about 4 years (and 350+ hrs) ago after completing most of an RV7A airframe and selling the project to a guy in South Africa. To the point of compatibility mentioned before, I definitely agree. I was way more compatible with the guy I sold to, and we've kept up and he is now flying the completed airplane. The guy I bought from not-so-much.

I had a thorough pre-buy with someone very familiar with RV's, and I was there as well and familiar from my project, but many things turned up later that showed average or worse craftsmanship that required re-work. For example:
- ties between rudder pedals and rudder cables were aluminum instead of steel as called for in the plans
- rudder stops followed the plans, which means they didn't work right. The plans are notoriously bad for that part.
- some wiring not properly grounded
- fresh oil change prior to pre-buy -- not sure if this was intentional, but we found metal in the first oil change after 25 hours. Long story short, I now have a new engine. Ask for oil analysis history or even have your own done.
- heavy wing, solved with standard technique of squeezing the aileron, but the builder should have fixed during phase 1. As mentioned, I was way too in to the honeymoon/RV-Grin phase during my test flight to notice, but flying back across the country after buying it was very obvious.
- static port not positioned per the plans. Airspeeds are still accurate, but lazy on the part of the builder.

Some other details worth looking out for:
- baffle cracks around the #4 cylinder. This is very common if not reinforced, and my fault for not doing when I installed the new engine. Rebuilt with reinforcement over the winter
- one of the brake lines was rubbing on something, wore through and I lost brake pressure, thankfully at low speed while taxiing in for my condition inspection

Could be some other things but that's what comes to mind.

Good luck!
 
I learned a few things too.

I bought an early RV-6, completed in June of 1993. Rob Ray, aka Smokyray was helping me through the process, and as it happened knew the owner/builder of the airplane.

Overall it's a solid airplane, as I expected it to be after talking with Rob about it. The owner/builder is a A&P/IA, but didn't follow the Vans specific items very closely after completion, so several SB's had not been done. On an EAB I didn't consider this a major issue, as I could take care of them myself and get to know the airplane as I did so.

I had two big things I was concerned with on the airplane. One was the fuel tanks, as with all of the RV's of this vintage, they were sloshed. I've come to understand that "slosh" done correctly isn't automatically a bad deal. The compound was applied carefully, and only where required. When you inspect the inside of the tanks IAW the SB, slosh can only be seen where it was applied directly to the joints. The only sloshing occured on the aft tank wall. The tanks are completely leak free after 21 years / 460 hours and I've never seen even a spec of slosh compound in a sample or the gascollator. The other item was the low time on the engine. At 20 years the airplane and engine had 325 hours, so I was concerned with the possiblity of corrosion in there. There was a bit of a leap of faith required on that issue, but oil samples have since shown great numbers.

Besides the pre-purchase inspection of the engine, airfame, logbooks, etc. like you're going to do on any airplane, look hard at the build quality. Get someone like Rob to provide some guidance or do it for you. His tips were right on and very helpful. I looked at a 1996 vintage -6 and the things Rob said to look for that would help indicate build quality were very obvious once you knew where to look, and I never considered buying that airplane.

Does it look like it's been well cared for? Is it neat, clean and fresh looking under the cowling? That's no guarentee it's in good shape, but if it looks rough, dirty and neglected then you can be fairly sure it's just that...

Go the the Van's website download and print all the SB's that apply to the RV-7. That's eduational if nothing else.

Good luck!

Doug
 
Gain confidence with an experienced, objective inspector

Many on the forum are experienced builders who can assess construction & maintenance easily. But like some others here, I'm a newbie interested in owning and flying an RV, and I've realized I don't even know what I don't know regarding build and maintenance quality. "Snowman rivets"?? How could I confidently shop, buy, and own?

Well, I recently came across a 9A that looked good, so I looked around for a trustworthy, experienced pre-buy inspector. I chose Jesse Saint at Saint Aviation, had the plane flown to him, and attended the inspection. As he worked his way through the plane, he commented on the good and the bad and pointed things out. We looked at the logs; looked under panels, inside the cylinders, at the wiring and plumbing; checked SB compliance; did a test flight; made some minor repairs on-the-spot. Here's what I really liked about this experience:

1. I got a hands-on crash course in RV construction and maintenance.
2. Much of the work was done by 2 RV-experienced pilots, meaning there were actually 6 eyeballs sweeping the plane.
3. Jesse has a Rolodex in his pocket. When an engine question arose, Jesse speed-dialed Allen Barrett at Barrett Precision Engines and had the answer in 3 minutes. He's also very helpful in offering solutions (eg, "Here's what I'd do..."), even with ways to structure the purchase deal.
4. The price was extremely reasonable, especially considering 3 people were inspecting.
5. The whole process took about 4-5 hours including lunch.
6. Bonuses: I got to tour the Maverick Flying Car factory next door, and I flew with the famous Ted Chang.

Most importantly, I feel more confident with my choice of planes (unlike some of the planes in this thread, the plane Jesse checked was pretty much cherry). So if you're inexperienced like I am and you're interested in a plane, find a good inspector and tag along. (And by the way, it was also fun!)

Bo
Austin TX
 
DougJ said:
I bought an early RV-6, completed in June of 1993.
........
Get someone like Rob to provide some guidance or do it for you. His tips were right on and very helpful. I looked at a 1996 vintage -6 and the things Rob said to look for that would help indicate build quality were very obvious once you knew where to look, and I never considered buying that airplane.


Doug
Click to expand...

Can you list for us what those useful tips were? Even though we may not be looking at a -6 they may be very useful.
 
IFR?

Be real careful about fer real IFR in a homebuilt. A good looking EFIS is no guarantee of software reliability, for example. Know all the failure modes of all the systems and be able to handle them. Don't assume that putting IFR equipment into a sport plane makes it suitable for IFR. And an RV will respond more enthusiastically to gusts than a spam can.

One 4,000 hour RV pilot said that the RVs were great for IFR as long as you never had to look at any papers. Yes, an autopilot would help, as long as it works.

Just like flying any experimental VFR, the name of the game is risk management. But IFR, the risks can be higher and harder to detect.

Ed Wischmeyer ATP/CFII
500 hours RV
Trying to figure out what to do with the RV-8 panel
And how I can take my own advice.
 
Ed_Wischmeyer said:
Be real careful about fer real IFR in a homebuilt. A good looking EFIS is no guarantee of software reliability, for example. Know all the failure modes of all the systems and be able to handle them. Don't assume that putting IFR equipment into a sport plane mapkes it suitable for IFR.......

Just like flying any experimental VFR, the name of the game is risk management. But IFR, the risks can be higher and harder to detect.

Ed Wischmeyer ATP/CFII
Click to expand...

Ed,

Are you aware of any data that confirm higher risk when flying In IMC with an E/AB EFIS-equipped plane versus a certified single-engine EFIS-equipped plane?
 
No data but

Hi Arlen

I'm unaware of any data, but such data would be hard to collect. Part of my opinion comes from a day job dealing tangentially with airframe and avionics certification, every day, and hearing stories (not the good kind) about problems discovered in certified systems and avionics. If the big boys have those problems...
 
Ed_Wischmeyer said:
Hi Arlen

I'm unaware of any data, but such data would be hard to collect. Part of my opinion comes from a day job dealing tangentially with airframe and avionics certification, every day, and hearing stories (not the good kind) about problems discovered in certified systems and avionics. If the big boys have those problems...
Click to expand...

...it doesn't necessarily follow that the "little guys" will have the same types of problems. Some issues arise to due scale and complexity, along with process-related problems that are inherent in production-mode processes, which may be absent from "one-off" implementations like E-ABs.
 
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