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Plans error?

wirejock

wirejock

Well Known Member
Has anyone noticed this? On DWG 12 the plans show holes to be left open for the bottom skin attachment (first pic). On DWG 38 it's a different set of holes (second pic). The top skin holes match on both drawings but on the bottom skin, they are different. I suspect DWG 38 is correct. Or am I missing something?
Sorry about the orientation of the photos.
Also, if you didn't install the platenuts before the skin, how did you dimple the multiple layers for the platenut rivets? Will a squeezer and dimple dies make an adequate dimple for the screw and rivets?

2udynwz.jpg


k4a7pd.jpg
 
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Sahrens on the board ran into this on a day I went over to help. He also had QB wings with all the holes filled. He had noticed this error on the plans, and that his wings had some extra rivets, and was concerned. After stepping back and looking at it, and looking at my RV-6, he concluded that it's an error but not a big deal.

We drilled the extra rivets out of the wings, decided that the hole pattern wasn't going to match either plan, and moved on.
 
Search

Thanks Doug. I should have done a search first. There is a wealth of knowledge here.
Moderators, feel free to delete the thread.
 
aviator68 said:
Hi,

why Vans's doesn't change the plans?

Bye
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Some things just are what they are - this is one. They are a small operation to keep costs down and they use their people to answer the same questions and focus on making new planes.

This is just an observation - not being critical. I am just happy they answer questions pretty well, costs are low, and stay in business for future support.

Hopefully the 14 people realize this behavior and some enterprising person is gathering a list of defects to post/sell to future builders. 14 guys listening?
 
wirejock said:
Thanks Doug. I should have done a search first. There is a wealth of knowledge here.
Moderators, feel free to delete the thread.
Click to expand...

Delete the thread? Larry, I'm a bit behind you on the 7 wings and this stuff is really important. I get a few 'gotchas' from a local builder, but I wish there was somewhere we could go to find the occasional misleading plans and directions.
 
BillL said:
Some things just are what they are - this is one. They are a small operation to keep costs down and they use their people to answer the same questions and focus on making new planes.

This is just an observation - not being critical. I am just happy they answer questions pretty well, costs are low, and stay in business for future support.

Hopefully the 14 people realize this behavior and some enterprising person is gathering a list of defects to post/sell to future builders. 14 guys listening?
Click to expand...

BUT if they just spent the time correcting the plans once and posting the revisions online, wouldn't the number of phone calls reduce allowing them to keep their costs down even lower and focus on making even more new planes?

My lack of trust in the plans after hitting the first gotcha slowed down my build considerably. Before I did anything I searched on VAF for errors and gotchas and I still got "Vandalized". I love my plane and I'm thankful that Vans is around but it sure would have been nice to hang my hat on the plans and directions.
 
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Gotchas

SkyFlorida said:
Delete the thread? Larry, I'm a bit behind you on the 7 wings and this stuff is really important. I get a few 'gotchas' from a local builder, but I wish there was somewhere we could go to find the occasional misleading plans and directions.
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I'm with you Michael.
This is a little one. I would love a gotcha page.
If I can help, feel free to e-mail.
 
Hi, Larry
I had not noticed the different rivet spacing in the plan`s. With respect to dimpling 2 layer`s the inboard skins are .032 and you could machine countersink them. Ask Ryan and see what he says.
Russ Emick,Jr.
building RV-8A
 
russ-e said:
Hi, Larry
I had not noticed the different rivet spacing in the plan`s. With respect to dimpling 2 layer`s the inboard skins are .032 and you could machine countersink them. Ask Ryan and see what he says.
Russ Emick,Jr.
building RV-8A
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Another option used by the early -6 builders was to use a small 0.032 plate/shim between the rib and the nutplate.

This allows a complete countersink for the #8 screw and lets you use the usual K-1000 nutplate instead of the countersunk K-1100 nutplate version.

Essentially the extra metal layer duplicates the -6 plans call out for the upper nutplates in the area of the wing walk stiffener plate.
 
Well that's just great

I purchased a partially built wing set and the left wing has the top skin installed. But no rivets in the holes noted on the drawing to be left open. The skin and ribs are dimpled to accept a AN426 rivet. So now what? How can I rework the skin and rib holes to accept the larger countersunk -8 screws and nut plate?
 
aeroaddict said:
I purchased a partially built wing set and the left wing has the top skin installed. But no rivets in the holes noted on the drawing to be left open. The skin and ribs are dimpled to accept a AN426 rivet. So now what? How can I rework the skin and rib holes to accept the larger countersunk -8 screws and nut plate?
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Drill out every third rivet and use the option I described in the previous post (#10)

A #19 drill will effectively remove the rivet countersink.
 
Countersink

az_gila said:
Another option used by the early -6 builders was to use a small 0.032 plate/shim between the rib and the nutplate.

This allows a complete countersink for the #8 screw and lets you use the usual K-1000 nutplate instead of the countersunk K-1100 nutplate version.

Essentially the extra metal layer duplicates the -6 plans call out for the upper nutplates in the area of the wing walk stiffener plate.
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Gil
Do I read correctly the skin, doubler and rib are countersinked as a unit for #8 dimple of the wing root fairing and a shim is placed on the bottom for the same purpose? Sounds easier than trying to dimple three layers.
 
Recall, for my situation, that the holes have not been filled with any AN426 rivets as called out on drawing 12. But both ribs and skin have been dimpled and the top skin installed.

I think what I understand for my situation where the skin has been riveted is to;

1) Drill a #19 hole which will consume the dimpled holes in the skin and rib

2) Machine countersink the skin for a #8 screw

3) Machine countersink the skin for the AN426 rivet to secure the nut plates

4) Top skin only; do I need to use another .032 shim between the rib and nutplate as there will be a need for extra material thickness for a machined countersink for the #8 screw????

This rework process will allow the use of the k1000 nutplate as the skin/rib is not dimpled.

Will this work?
 
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aeroaddict said:
Recall, for my situation, that the holes have not been filled with any AN426 rivets as called out on drawing 12. But both ribs and skin have been dimpled and the top skin installed.

I think what I understand for my situation where the skin has been riveted is to;

1) Drill a #19 hole which will consume the dimpled holes in the skin and rib

2) Machine countersink the skin for a #8 screw

3) Machine countersink the skin for the AN426 rivet to secure the nut plates

4) Top skin only; do I need to use another .032 shim between the rib and nutplate as there will be a need for extra material thickness for a machined countersink for the #8 screw????

This rework process will allow the use of the k1000 nutplate as the skin/rib is not dimpled.

Will this work?
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All of Vans demonstrators are built this way, except using K-1100 nutplates (as called out in the plans sheet shown in post # 1).
The K-1100's are installed first and the machine countersinking done with a # 40 countersink pilot centering in the nutplate (as described for the flanges of the wing spar). K-1100's are used because the countersink cutter would slightly cut into the nutplate if K-1000's were used.
 
This seems (to me) to be much ado about nothing.

First, the position of the holes in the aft lower skin do not matter since the builder has to match them on the underside belly skin anyway. So what if one builder does it one way and a different builder does it another. The difference is minor.

Second, it is a non issue to #8 DIMPLE the skin and ribs as a unit and use the provided 1100 nutplates. This goes for the whole set of screws at the root.
 
rzbill said:
Second, it is a non issue to #8 DIMPLE the skin and ribs as a unit and use the provided 1100 nutplates. This goes for the whole set of screws at the root.
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I agree regarding the screw holes on the bottom, but not on the top.

On the bottom you are only needing to dimple the rib and one skin, which works ok, particularly if you can use a pneumatic squeezer.

On the top you need to dimple the skin, the rib, and the wing walk doubler, all at the same time. That is too thick to dimple using any means available to most builders. That is why machine countersinking the entire stack up is recommended.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
I agree regarding the screw holes on the bottom, but not on the top.
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Hmm. I'm sure I dimpled all on the bottom with a Tatco. Maybe I did the top during original top skin fabrication. Not sure anymore. They are all dimpled though.

****EDIT. Now I'm sure. My memory was correct. I found a pic of my wing with the top skins riveted with wingwalks and the fairing holes incomplete. They were dimpled many years later with a manual hand dimpler and standard dies. The wing root fairing dimples fit beautifully. As I said in the beginning, it was a non-issue.. *****

6417200643aa159dbc4b6.jpg
 
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So, if you are in the middle of assembling

So if you are getting ready to assemble and rivet the wing skins and doubler.

What is the best scenario..

Do you drill and dimple the holes (that are not to be riveted as shown on DWG 12) to #8 screw now?

Or do you leave them non-dimpled and countersink (possibly dimple) later?

Edit. I think that I found my answer. Leave the holes undimpled and #40 for future countersinking. I'll follow drawing #38 for placement
 
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