Touch Upgrade Announced - Costs Are Higher

Yep - so much for that.

Dynon wants $800 for the upgrade even if you just missed the window by days and for that you get someone else's unit with unknown hours on it upgraded to the new touch.

$1600 for the trade-in if you want a guaranteed new unit.

http://www.thenewskyview.com/touchtradein?utm_source=SkyView+Touch+Trade-In+Program+Information&utm_campaign=tradein_program_info_cc_email&utm_medium=email

I think it's pretty awesome that Dynon even offers this as an option. The SkyView is an incredible device that gives you more bang for your buck than any other EFIS on the market as it is. For those who like the latest, greatest technology, the SkyView Touch is amazing, but costs more. Having an upgrade path available is great, but not mandatory nor even a common option.

When's the last time you bought a computer only to find out 6 weeks later that there's a new model out? (OK, probably every time anyone bought a computer, right?) When's the last time that computer manufacturer agreed to take that computer back and give you credit towards the newer model? NEVER!

Dynon does, though. Whatever price they choose to make this possible is fine in my mind. It isn't required that everyone upgrade. It isn't even recommended that everyone upgrade. Some people won't like the touch screen. I personally, don't like the GTN touchscreens and much prefer the older GNS units.

My point is, most companies (not aviation, necessarily) would tell you to pound sand if you tried to upgrade a piece of equipment after purchase. Dynon, as well as a couple other avionics companies, care enough about their customers to at least give us a choice. It's up to each of us to decide if it's worth the extra money to have the newest toy.

By the way, I always recommend to my customers that they wait until everything else in their plane is built before they buy their EFIS and/or avionics. Engines don't change much, but electronics sure do.

They have said the upgrade would cost $795 from the beginning. What you are getting is basically an overhauled unit with a warranty, nut just an upgraded used unit. They may be able to upgrade your unit and send it back, but that would take a lot longer. I also don't have a problem with the higher cost for a guaranteed new unit. You'd likely be better off in this case to sell your non-touch and buy a new touch screen. I'd do that for less than $1,600 personally.

craigvince said:

My point is, most companies (not aviation, necessarily) would tell you to pound sand if you tried to upgrade a piece of equipment after purchase. Dynon, as well as a couple other avionics companies, care enough about their customers to at least give us a choice. It's up to each of us to decide if it's worth the extra money to have the newest toy.

By the way, I always recommend to my customers that they wait until everything else in their plane is built before they buy their EFIS and/or avionics. Engines don't change much, but electronics sure do.

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The problem is that with improvement comes multiple frustrations after frustration. -12 builders 1st, 2nd and now 3rd generation are paying for that technological leaps with their frustration.

Yep I get the argument that improvement is good for aviation....I just want to get on the secret list that says don't order yet - wait 2 months and you won't regret it.....do you keep that list?

(Well too late for me - but it might help the next guy)

I have a zero hour 10.1 Skyview, would have been glad to have mine upgraded, or subbed for another zero hour Skyview for $395.....not someone else's 300 hour Skyview for $800...see my point?

Henry Ford meet Bill Gates meet Steve Jobs....meet GoPro?

I'm not frustrated at all with my non-touch SkyView. I am actually not even considering an upgrade as the touch feature has no bearing to me. I only rarely ever use the right joystick to get detailed information on controlled airspace and the feature is simple enough to use that I do not need to worry about touching it on the map.
I enjoy flying the airplane instead or I watch the auto-pilot doing it. The extra 3-knob option is nice, particularly when flying through rough air but other than that I don't see a *need* for a touch screen nor do I see yet how it would even be desirable.
The screen is still pretty small and my fingers pretty thick in comparison. I can see how THAT could cause more frustration compared to using a joystick.

YMMV,

cactuspilot said:

The problem is that with improvement comes multiple frustrations after frustration. -12 builders 1st, 2nd and now 3rd generation are paying for that technological leaps with their frustration.

Yep I get the argument that improvement is good for aviation....I just want to get on the secret list that says don't order yet - wait 2 months and you won't regret it.....do you keep that list?

(Well too late for me - but it might help the next guy)

I have a zero hour 10.1 Skyview, would have been glad to have mine upgraded, or subbed for another zero hour Skyview for $395.....not someone else's 300 hour Skyview for $800...see my point?

Henry Ford meet Bill Gates meet Steve Jobs....meet GoPro?

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I've seen many people in the place you find yourself. Best bet, find someone who doesn't want touch, sell them your unit (value decreases as warranty expires) for enough to get a new touch for roughly $795 more than you get. I've worked a deal like this for 5 or 6 units. Contact me offline if you want.

Jesse said:

I've seen many people in the place you find yourself.

nt.

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I would venture that nearly everyone finds themselves in his shoes, although perhaps he is unlucky with a very short time scale. My avionics were ordered less than four years ago, and virtually every one of them is now obsolete, or less expensive. Am I unhappy? No. I thought I got good value for my money. Just could have gotten better today.

EFIS vs 6 pack

I hear stories like John?s over and over and remember that in the general software world it costs 18-20% of the then current price every year to keep the software current and I suspect that EFIS systems are/will be no different. How many of us really expect to re-pay for an existing system EFIS every five years? Do you really want to be paying Caesar every year just to keep flying? Are these systems cool, well I guess, but I?d rather look out the window.

Now compare this EFIS reality to that of a steam gauge 6-pack where there are no yearly fees or unexpected upgrade costs?and might I add that if something needs servicing one can pull one gauge and maybe keep flying?try flying when you have to pull your Dynon EFIS out and send it back to the factory?and if your hundreds of miles away from home where are you then? You are simply out of business. A recently born RV7A on our field got a complete system lock-up (similar to the blue screen of death) on each one of the first five or six flights?the first lock-up was on the maiden flight within ? mile off the runway.

EFIS systems are nice but the ongoing costs and putting all your eggs in with one company ? well I wonder sometimes where we are headed with straightforward day VFR.

My 6 pack has been bullet proof for going on nine years now with no update or upgrade payments to the original manufacturers, and at least so far, no needed repairs.

As Jesse mentioned, we've always said (unofficially until now) that the trade-in / upgrade price would likely be $800, and that we'd do it for the price difference for people that bought just before we announced and felt they would've chosen differently if they'd just bought a little bit later. We ended up going back a month and a half previous to the announcement to Feb 1 with that, and at some point, with all purchases of anything, you have to make the choice based on what's available the moment you're ready to by. We know we won't capture everyone perfectly - as all blanket policies fail to - but we're excited that we're able to offer a trade-in program at all since the form factor and wiring are the same. If you have a situation that you think warrants special consideration, we're willing to listen. The best way to start a conversation is to send an email to [email protected] or give us a ring at 425-402-0433. Note that a few of us will be out over then next few days, myself included, for the holiday weekend.

As an aside, one of the reasons you haven't seen us run "act now supplies are limited" sales, or even many airshow specials, is because we don't want you to buy something too long before your ready for it. When that happens, and it sits on the hangar shelf, buyer's remorse sets in when there's something new added to the mix. And with avionics and technology, there's guaranteed something new every few months. . Anyway, we'd rather spend time talking to you at the show instead of doing the "hard sell" and have you buy when you're about ready to work on the panel. Incidentally, this is also one reason we favor long life product platforms vs having something completely new every year or two. We can't do all features in software alone - like touch - but we try to give all our customers the opportunity to adopt the latest and greatest when we can.

Michael Schofield
Marketing Manager
Dynon Avionics

posterman said:

Now compare this EFIS reality to that of a steam gauge 6-pack where there are no yearly fees or unexpected upgrade costs?

EFIS systems are nice but the ongoing costs and putting all your eggs in with one company ? well I wonder sometimes where we are headed with straightforward day VFR.

My 6 pack has been bullet proof for going on nine years now with no update or upgrade payments to the original manufacturers, and at least so far, no needed repairs.

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GRT, Dynon, AFS, have no yearly fees. And if you are happy with what you have (I have an HX and an obsolete HS but have no reason to upgrade it) then there are no upgrade costs. In fact, GRT has given me, for free, new software which makes my EFIS capable of things I never paid for originally.

I have no objections to '6 pack' instrumentation. But when I looked at the costs of EFIS (including a second, independent efis for backup) and engine instruments vs conventional (including vacuum system and mechanical or electric engine instruments) the EFIS route was less expensive!

As to reliability, I'm not sure. A few years ago I ferried a 182. On the first day, the vacuum pump died. On the second, the backup electric AI went belly up. So failures happen to both.

To throw another Dynon opinion in here:

I see a lot of comments about EFIS systems that they are "obsolete" after a short time period.

SkyView has been for sale since December 2009, so almost 5 years. The upgrade to touch is the first hardware change we have made, and it's one you can upgrade to. Nothing is obsolete. Same wiring, same cutout, same accessories...

On top of that, the non-touch systems are still for sale. Still supported. Still getting software updates. There's nothing about an incremental change in adding touch to the system that makes any current SkyView "obsolete" or any less functional than it was at the moment it was purchased.

In fact, Dynon has an awesome history here. Our D10A product was our first product, and it's STILL FOR SALE. 12 years after it first went on the market. We have a proven track record of supporting our equipment for an insanely long time in the tech market.

Along with all of this, we've given almost 30 software updates out in those 5 years, all free. We give free database updates out each month. We have an excellent warranty and very reasonable out-of-warranty fixed repair costs.

So while inevitably someone bought a system a day before we came out with a change to SkyView, that person should also realize that we're supporting someone that bought a SkyView 5 years ago with the exact same upgrade opportunity, and they are getting a fresh warranty and a overhauled unit, and we're doing it at the lowest price we can without going bankrupt in the process. So you can know that in 5 years from now your SkyView will still be supported, and far from obsolete. Would you rather that we upgraded our system via a new screen that requires a new sized cutout on your panel and has no trade in plan?

--Ian Jordan
Chief Systems Architect
Dynon Avionics

dynonsupport said:

Along with all of this, we've given almost 30 software updates out in those 5 years, all free. We give free database updates out each month. We have an excellent warranty and very reasonable out-of-warranty fixed repair costs.

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This. This and this alone is one of the biggest market differentiators I've ever seen, particularly in aviation.

Compare and contrast with Garmin, whose answer to a problem I had with one of their GPS products was "Send it in, along with $250." I declined that generous offer. The problem was ultimately resolved with a simple reset, the procedure for which was NOT provided by Garmin, nor was it included in their documentation. (Thanks, Google!)

And how much is the annual nut for Garmin map updates?

Garmin makes fine products. Their G-1000 was an industry game changer. Their new line of non certified avionics are fine products. BUT THE ONLY REASON those lower priced Garmin alternatives exist is because of the competition of firms like Dynon, who have always supported the less expensive, lower margin, experimental market. Growing up in the South, we have a saying "You dance with who brung ya." I think that is applicable here. Love my Skyview, amazed at its capabilities, and totally amazed at the free updates. (My Garmin Nuvi auto GPS, which is also a great product, does NOT have free map updates.)

dynonsupport said:

To throw another Dynon opinion in here:

I see a lot of comments about EFIS systems that they are "obsolete" after a short time period.

SkyView has been for sale since December 2009, so almost 5 years. The upgrade to touch is the first hardware change we have made, and it's one you can upgrade to. Nothing is obsolete. Same wiring, same cutout, same accessories...

On top of that, the non-touch systems are still for sale. Still supported. Still getting software updates. There's nothing about an incremental change in adding touch to the system that makes any current SkyView "obsolete" or any less functional than it was at the moment it was purchased.

In fact, Dynon has an awesome history here. Our D10A product was our first product, and it's STILL FOR SALE. 12 years after it first went on the market. We have a proven track record of supporting our equipment for an insanely long time in the tech market.

Along with all of this, we've given almost 30 software updates out in those 5 years, all free. We give free database updates out each month. We have an excellent warranty and very reasonable out-of-warranty fixed repair costs.

So while inevitably someone bought a system a day before we came out with a change to SkyView, that person should also realize that we're supporting someone that bought a SkyView 5 years ago with the exact same upgrade opportunity, and they are getting a fresh warranty and a overhauled unit, and we're doing it at the lowest price we can without going bankrupt in the process. So you can know that in 5 years from now your SkyView will still be supported, and far from obsolete. Would you rather that we upgraded our system via a new screen that requires a new sized cutout on your panel and has no trade in plan?

--Ian Jordan
Chief Systems Architect
Dynon Avionics

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Ian -

I want to tell you that I certainly appreciate yours and Dynon's contribution to g/a. Without it, I probably wouldn't be building - the attraction of ipad-like electronic flight instruments and small companies building a better mousetrap is really one of the reasons I jumped back in (Rotax is another - who needs to be spending $$$$ on new jugs every 400 hours...)

That said I am being constructively critical of the upgrade policy. Perhaps it was because I read your email after swearing at yet another mod problem I was having in my 109 degree garage yesterday....but I did read your FAQS clearly, and my concerns were:

1) Pricing - you could have captured folks back a little - I mean you area already pointing out in the FAQS that if there is wear and tear over and above, you will provide a quote...this is fair I think, but conversely, the guys who bot in early 2014/late 2013 and have ZERO hours on the box are easily figured out too I would think;

2) The exchange for some one else's "overhauled" unit raises questions as well. You mention new screen and bezel, but fail to address the re-use of the main boards. Why would I exchange my zero hour Skyview for something with the guts of a maybe 1000 hour unit (how would I know?)

As for the database, didn't I pay $500 for a license for that?

Perhaps Dynon should get with Van's - I mean the cost of the avionics kit went up at the same time the intercom was removed and the $1200 GTR-200 was included versus a slightly higher priced SL-40 was removed?

That said your marketing guy did offer me a compromise which I declined. Again I appreciate your efforts, but feel the upgrade policy probably could have been a little better thought out imho.

Ok - back to the meat grinder - no vacation this summer and no rain in AZ for 140 days - no wonder I am getting cranky.

My King Silver Crown series panel in my Cherokee has been going strong since 1997, and is still compatible with most upgrades I have done or want to do. On the other hand the 3-year-old Dynon D-180 in my 12 is not compatible with Dynon's new ADS-B unit, and I don't see Dynon entering the market with a UAT that is stand alone. I'd rather stick with Dynon products, but without the expensive and time consuming change to SV I will be forced to mix and match brands.

GRT-200?

I'd rather have my 12 equipped with all Dynon products - basically due to their outstanding products and generally excellent support. Having said that, I'd rather have the Dynon com unit than the G-200. Just sayin, Van's???

Years ago I was on the cusp of buying an EFIS and had my heart set on a Dynon D-100. But it was mid-July, so I thought I would call up the factory to see if there was any advantage to delaying my order until the Oshkosh announcements were made. The answer I got was "nope, buy now, nothing new coming", even when I insisted that, whether I bought now or after Osh, I was still going with a D100.

At Osh Dynon announced the Brightscreen option, after I had placed my order (the logic being that I would place my order in hopes of ensuring a reasonable delivery timeline, rather than waiting in line after all the folks who had purchased at Osh...).

A call to the factory after Osh to explain the situation resulted in fair treatment. Sure, I still paid for the upgrade, which I would have paid for had it been available at the time of placing the order. Dynon met me more than half way on shipping costs, so in the end this little escapade cost me only a few bucks more than had I waited until Osh to place my order, plus I had my EFIS in hand when I needed it, rather than having to wait several weeks.

Now, a few years later, that EFIS is still running strong and literally hasn't skipped a beat since the day it was installed. In that same time I've replaced several analog engine instruments and sensors, my Turn & Bank and my VSI. The value of the Dynon products is pretty clear to me.

I'm sticking with Dynon. The first glass panel I saw was at Oshkosh 2002 (or was that 2003). Remember Greg Richter and Blue Mountain? Boy did I want one of those. Try upgrading that boat anchor.

I'm in wait mode for the dual screen setup. It pains me to hold off the building. I'm assuming wiring changes, so no wiring yet. There's definitely going to be panel layout changes (especially with the two little knob panels and not having room for the map case) so not much can be done on the upper fuselage. I don't want to add the tailcone until the wiring is done. I can't do the canopy until the upper fuse is done. So I'm waiting.

It'll be worth it to get the panel setup I want. I'd wait even longer for an 912is or Sport (heck out here in the mountain west a 914!) but don't want to be that old when I fly

I love the innovation and upgrades by both Van's and the vendors! Bring it on! What a ride!

Bob

One thing about Dynon is that they plan for the future while not abandoning the past. I highly doubt there will be any wiring changes in their Skyview system for a long time, if ever. Plan your system, pull an extra couple wires, then move forward.

Bob - There will be no wiring changes involving the tailcone to go with dual Skyviews. (That does NOT involve dual ADAHRS.) The only wiring change would be in the panel. Basically the second screen needs power, needs a plug-in Ethernet cable connecting it to the other screen, a DB9 cable between the screens, and needs all the serial port wires paralleled to the second screen's 37 pin connector. A second backup battery would be optional and likely not recommended due to charging load. (The backup batter only connects to a single screen and cannot be paralleled.) It will almost be plug and play except for - maybe - some serial wire cutting and crimping at the panel.

The map case problem was solved in the original avionics dual screen option - they have a little shelf bracket for the operators manual under the right side panel. Build on!

The only thing that could be a hassle for you is if you mount the engine first and run the control cables through the center panel plate - then need a different center panel plate! That is why I slotted those engine control cable holes - see the mods thread.

Getting a different right hand panel will not be an issue.

Even upgrading to dual AHRS doesn't require wiring changes- You can use the same cable that goes to a single AHRS and split it at the AHRS to a second AHRS. Since all of SkyView's cabling is internally redundant, this is reasonable to do without inducing a single point of failure.