Suggestions to Vans: The RV-12 is a game changer.

I was about to post this in the "500th RV" thread but I think it should be separate. I think the 12 will have more impact than Van's thinks. I am an ex-Bonanza co-owner. The 12 is not just a light-sport plane - it is an affordable (in aviation terms, cheap!), brand-new state-of-the-art responsive personal aircraft with full versatility.

At a year to build (and easy) it is a game-changer. The difference between a 900 hour build and typically 2500+ hours is a BIG DEAL DIFFERENCE. BIG! Yes it has limitations. It is not speedy like a 7-8-9-or-10, but it is faster than the Cessnas and Warriors I (and many) used to drive, cheaper to operate, and much more capable with the new avionics and autopilot. (And its not a 30 year old cosmically boring plane either.)

The folks at Van's are spoiled by their easy access to planes like the RV 7, 8, and 10. (Imagine how affordable a 2-person partnership on an RV-12 could be!) I tell you - when there are 300+ of us flying and more every week (I'm currently working on the fuel system) there will be a big difference in thought about this plane. The big magazines will be taking notice.

The 12 is fully capable as a personal traveling machine for two people. In several years of Bonanza ownership we had 4 people in it about 3 times. Game changer - wait and see. There are people building the 12 that never would have even *considered* building a 6-7-8-9 after just 10 minutes research on the amount of work involved in those.

The RV-12 market can increase - and it will if Van's pays attention to suggestions like the one by Jetguy in the 500th RV-12 thread about really targeting a larger-than-the-traditional-homebuilder market. (And making the already good instructions even better.)

For example, EVERY KIT SECTION should have its own DVD and those should be sold cheaply to prospective builders - much higher impact than a sample plans kit. Imagine seeing an expert build each section with good video of each significant step. Imagine not having to ask what you know are "dumb questions" on this forum! Target this plane at the 1st time builder and people that just need a confidence boost.

VANs needs more demo outlets than just one in Oregon and one on the East Coast. Several RV-12s should be touring the US for demo rides. They should have an 18-wheel trailer making the airport rounds containing a plane and a bunch of parts and sub-assemblies for a traveling road-show about how easy it is to build, and to offer rides. They would get lots of orders if many folks who do not go to OSH and who never seriously considered building a plane could get a really good look. You have to see and touch this thing to take the plunge.

I bet some of the others here have some better ideas too.

Hey Bill - -

Agree with most of your points - EXCEPT - there are about 90 'DEMO' planes out there now. I have given several rides to serious buyers. We are doing the demo's for them.

John Bender

On the flip side, you don't want to over saturate the market. Vans could spend tons of marketing the RV-12 or any of their other kits, but if they are happy with the flow of sales with the marketing level they have now, then so be it.

I'm sure they don't want to get to the point where they advertise themselves out of business. Fortunately for them, they have a product that pretty much sells itself. If they get to successful, then kit lead times might increase to the point where a builder starts a project and then turns off since they can't keep the pace up. Yeah Vans could expand production, but at what pace do they saturate the market and start to lose hold on to "the good thing?"

They could sell 1000 kits this year, and next year turn around and sell 50 since 800 of those kits are being resold.

I say sure and steady and make improvements on the RV-12 (skyview, different power plant choice, weight improvements, documentation) than ramp up marketing and production to non-sustainable levels.

Maybe a couple of changes

I don't care for the gas tank in the rear baggage area.
I'd say hardly anyone cares about removeable wings.
Maybe make a version with fixed wings and wing tanks and let people choose.

Nice observations Bill, BUT, if I were Vans, the lesson I would take is that most people (not all) like easy-to-follow instructions, which equates to quicker build time with fewer mistakes and a higher completion percentage. THEREFORE, put your manpower in making the other kits easier to build. You'll sell more of them as a result.

I still think more exposure is necessary. I for one example could not get to even SEE one, finally found one about 300 miles away, the closest one around.
That said, it seemed that nobody in this area was even interested in an RV 12. Not so, as soon as the word got out I had a kit and was building, everyone appeared to come out of the woodwork interested in it. I feel I will make a small fortune on Van's "Finders Fees".
It appears I will get my first ride in one when mine is complete - as test pilot!

Well i'll tell you pilgrim it makes me feel pretty **** smart to have bought, built, and flying one as much as I can.
As for Van's i would say they know what they are doing when it comes to the homebuilt market.
Dick Seiders 120093

Concur ...

Also would like to see an option for a prefabricated, 1-piece, canopy. Many builders I have talked to feel the toughest part of the RV-12 project was the fiberglass layup for the canopy. Any builders out there with comments about that?

From what I have seen and read from the plans, if I want a nice looking finished canopy, I know I will need help with that. Not afraid to reach out either.

FWIW, the removable wing was one of the attractions. I don't like the fuel tank either. Overall it is a good package, one that is hard to top. As far as a production increase, Van's appears to know what they are doing. Vans is an American success story. Look at what has happened to Harley Davidson. They chose to mass produce and the market is flooded. They can't sell new ones and used ones are hard to sell also. IMHO, although far from perfect, I will put their business model and their development model up against anyone. Beyond Van's the next best thing going is the Air Force. My .03

Fixed Wing

I don't care for the gas tank in the rear baggage area.
I'd say hardly anyone cares about removeable wings.
Maybe make a version with fixed wings and wing tanks and let people choose.
__________________
Steve Formhals
RV6 & RV8
A&P, Tech Counselor & Flight Advisor

Agree 100%. I think this would be a popular option for the RV12.

Jamesey

Fule Tank in the Wings

Jamesey said:

I don't care for the gas tank in the rear baggage area.
I'd say hardly anyone cares about removeable wings.
Maybe make a version with fixed wings and wing tanks and let people choose.
__________________
Steve Formhals
RV6 & RV8
A&P, Tech Counselor & Flight Advisor

Agree 100%. I think this would be a popular option for the RV12.

Jamesey

Click to expand...

You got my vote
I?m building my wing last, hoping
If van doesn?t add this option I will design and build wing tanks for my 12

The removable wings take two people to remove and as this is OK, most of the time you are alone so removing the wings on a daily bases is not practical for most people.

The home made fuel tank in the baggage area is an accident waiting to happen, I hope I?m wrong.

The tank should only be built by an experienced builder.
If an accident happens it will be builder error.

My two cents

Pre-built tank

I agree - the pre-built tank came out just as I was ordering my finish kit. My $.02 is that it was worth the extra money just for the peace of mind. I figured the odds of getting it right & tight the first time were pretty small, and the cost of the replacement parts would be close enough to the cost of just having Van's build it that it was a wash. I'll never know how it would have turned out, but now I'm not losing any sleep over it.

I doubt that I will ever use the removable wings all that much once the plane is done, but they're wonderful for building in a hangar already crowded with an RV-6.

joedallas said:

The tank should only be built by an experienced builder.

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Wider Market

Guys

I would like to remind you that there is a wider world out there were land is at a premium and hanger rent is expensive. Vans sells to this wider world.
This is a good glider solution to the problem of paying high hanger rent.

I think he has it spot on.

Ex glider pilot

Rob

Van's has done it right or they wouldn't be the biggest dog in the fight. I agreed with your thoughts for quite a while, then I did the kit section video instruction thing. The emp section for the 9/9A was for sale at one of the major tool companies, and people avoided it in droves. Almost none of them sold! Of course not long after that, Van changed the plans to the simple system they have now on the 10 and 12. Not only is a DVD not really needed, but it probably wouldn't sell all that well. I tried it.

I agree with you about the 12 being somewhat of a secret. 120467 is being built without so much as me ever sitting in one! But then again, I have a 9A, and I know the 12 will be great. And I am doing my part to spread the word. 467 is being built at our local high school, by the students. We realize we are Van's promo department, and we don't mind. These kids, and all the hundreds of people who will watch their progress (open house next week, local news, Sport Aviation, etc) will be potential buyers in the end. I think we will be hard pressed to convince Van that that he needs more than that...

Bob

I would be very surprised to see Vans change their very successful business model to accomodate an apparent marketing opportunity. It has transitioned to an employee-owned company, making business decisions doubly-significant to the stockholders.

As for modifications to the 12, I would be tickled just to see a plumbing system retrofit that would offer a tank sump and a conventional fuel shut-off valve without that Jurassic hump. Oh yeah, and the spring-loaded lateral trim gizmo offered on other RVs.

Jim in South Texas
RV12 #120264 flying 12 hours

joedallas said:

... The removable wings take two people to remove and as this is OK, most of the time you are alone so removing the wings on a daily bases is not practical for most people.
made fuel tank in the baggage area is an accident waiting to happen, I hope I?m wrong...

Click to expand...

Are you sure about this? I've been thinking outside the box about this lately and believe a contraption could be built and incorporated into a trailer that allows a single person to do this without much trouble. If I decide to build a 12, I would likely pursue this goal.

diamond said:

Are you sure about this? I've been thinking outside the box about this lately and believe a contraption could be built and incorporated into a trailer that allows a single person to do this without much trouble. If I decide to build a 12, I would likely pursue this goal.

Click to expand...

Setting up for one person wing installation and removal on the RV-12 would not be hard to do particularly at you home base hangar where it could be done on the same ramp so that the small finial adjustments would remain the same each time. We remove the wings any time we are working on the aircraft just to get them out of the way, it takes just two minutes and the same to reinstall them and save a lot of time walking around them. It is one of the best features of the RV-12. Think about the day when you have an engine problem like an oil hose leak at an airport away from your base and instead of leaving the aircraft tied down at that airport you call for the ride you need to get home and they can bring a trailer so that you and the aircraft can both come home and you can fix the RV-12 at your base when you get the new parts instead of on a distant ramp with just a bag of tools, you will have all of your tools and help from friends will be easier to get too.

Wings on, wings off, just great. Just ask anyone who has damaged their RV-8 at another airport how much fun it is to remove the wings and transport it home.

As we have 8 RV-12's flying or making good progress we plan to build a nice trailer properly fit to the RV-12 so that retrieves can be made, aircraft can be taken to paint shops and we can take one to schools for aviation day.

Best regards,
Vern

My sentiments exactly. I don't see that the removable aspect creates any big weight or parts costs, and could be very nice at such times as stated above. I too have been toying with ideas for a one man system of removal. My thoughts werr along a triangle leg device adjustable to height.
Please continue to share any ideas you guys develop with the rest of us.

Hopefully Van Will not See it that Way

Van needs to support all of the Van's Aircraft community and not put an unprecedented focus on any product or expand too much. The RV-11 would have appeal I think without the RV-6, RV-7 and RV-9 kind of defocus. Lancair and Glasair probably have provided some lessons learned along with Van's good judgement to reduce the potential for bad decisions.

Bob Axsom

DonFromTX said:

My sentiments exactly. I don't see that the removable aspect creates any big weight or parts costs, and could be very nice at such times as stated above. I too have been toying with ideas for a one man system of removal. My thoughts werr along a triangle leg device adjustable to height.
Please continue to share any ideas you guys develop with the rest of us.

Click to expand...

Like an engine stand with larger wheels the rotating tube could be fitted with bracket and a pin to go in the spar hole with a pin, then rotate 90 Deg to roll to the wing stand on the trailer

Yes, it is only a handful of parts and some good engineering that makes the wings removable. All upside, very little downside. If you wanted to build it as an "E" you could add wing tanks and plumbing, a pitot (with the AOA sensor to feed the Dynon!) and just put up with all the disconnections at the times you wanted to remove the wings. The baggage area would be bigger and more inviting to overload. But my thoughts are more about the aspects of the 12 that make it a game-changer in the way that the existing RVs won't be - at least without some substantial re-engineering. I thought about building an 8 for several years. But when the time came right and I could do any one I chose - the 12 was the choice for many reasons. And the 12 could be the choice of a lot of folks that would dismiss building a 7-8-9-10 out of hand.

Consider 2 pilots - one that might consider building a plane, and one that never would consider that, but is tired of the whole rental or flying club thing. Imagine a financial partnership and how comparatively cheap it is and what you get for it, if they join and build a 12. And get it done in several months rather than several years. Me and another guy co-owned a Bonanza for many years. The partnership part was great, because that bird was not cheap to fly or maintain. My point is that a bigger picture about this particular plane is going to unfold over time and there are more reasons than are apparent at first glance.

Speaking from just off the shores of the USA.... In Europe, the RV-12 is nigh on the perfect plane.

a. It's an RV
b. The wings come off (intentionally)
c. It's powered by a Rotax 912

RVs are world renowned as being the best kitplanes - value for money, performance, handling and resale value etc.

Hangarage is not cheap in Europe - nor on-airfield parking. The ability to remove the wings quickly and easily for reduced parking footprint or to trailer it home is a real plus point.

The 912 has become a very much loved engine in Europe (and has a far better reputation than the Jabiru...). It is nothing to do with being a European engine, it just works well and is light and efficient when compared to some other offerings. Agreed it isn't a cheap option but the best things in life often aren't.

Fuel tank in the back? No worse, in fact more preferable in my opinion to those machines with the tank between you and the engine...

Need more fuel? Not for me thanks, 4 hrs plus is just fine - but then we do tend to fly shorter and lower legs than you lot in the USA.

Not much fun building the tank (or the canopy fibreglass) - but having built a flat pack RV-6 life is so much easier building the 12.

As for getting a demo ride. I just caught a plane at London-Heathrow, flew to Seattle, hired a Jeep and drove down to Van's for a flight in the RV-12 with Gus. Then came home having left my credit card details for the deposit, job done. (Actually, I also visited the splendid Evergreen museum, sat in Mr H Hughes seat in the Spruce Goose, got my feet wet in the Pacific Ocean, drove up Mt St Helens and bought a load of cheap stuff at a Sears - all in three days!).

Removable wings are an advantage!

One of our chapter members has a Europa with a similar wing removal system.

When it comes time for his condition inspection (or make upgrades), he gets some help to remove the wings and leaves them at the airport. He then trailers the fuselage home to his garage where he can complete the work in short order.

It was sure nice having the -9 home again to work on but removing those wings are a real pain! (I sure wish we lived at an airpark!)

I agree entirely with Bill's contention that group ownership is a viable path to affordable flying. Why have $80,000 tied up in an RV-12 when it will sit in the hangar a good bit of the time with one owner? I have been a supporter (unpaid) of the www.theapa.com website that brings interested parties together who want to share ownership. One step that would facilitate group ownership is a professionally drafted legal document that serves as the co-ownership agreement that is well thought out, including documents to enable internal lending by one member to another for a member's share amount (less an appropriate down payment amount). I have developed an Excel spreadsheet that is very thorough in accounting for the costs of acquisition and ownership. The savings that it reveals for multiple owners is an eye opener.

Jerry Parr, I don't know about flying expenses in Europe altho I've heard, but I can identify with your west coast adventure in the U.S. as I did same in '98 (including St. Helens) on way to building a great RV6A. Bought it, built it, flew it 600+ hrs, loved it, but sold it in 2009 and built a 12. What a winner Vans has in this airplane. No comparison in the build effort, (plans, plus ease of construction) and it is a great flyer as well. Good luck with yours.
Dick Seiders 120093

Other than parking next to RV's on ramps, I'm new to this 'RV Experience' and certainly new to being serious about building an RV. The -12 is the reason for me being here, so it obviously changed my game! Some of the above comments resonate pretty strongly with what I've been learning, but others less so.

In RV or LSA kit terms, I don't see the RV-12 aircraft as especially affordable and I would rate it's bang for the buck - as a flying RV - to be pretty modest when compared to e.g. other RV choices. It's the combo of the short build time and detailed plans that bring value into the equation, as I see it...and add to that, it's LSA class for those with medical issues. Similarly, I don't see an argument for partnership ownership of a -12 to be any stronger than for any other GA a/c. We had a grand 5 years owning & flying a Grumman, then an equally grand 5 years in a partnership arrangement with the same plane. That partnership's benefits - including some good friendships and amazingly affordable costs - would apply to a -12 no more (or less) so.

I've worked hard at researching LSA's & kits for metal low wings. What I've found is that most owners & builders either don't have any particular need for removable wings or they covet the feature tremendously because their local storage options are unavailable, expensive, or both. In Van's shoes, I too would be shooting for a design that would appeal to all potential owners, not just a portion of them. I especially appreciated Vern's comment above, as pulling the wings simply to make the annual easier strikes me as a sensible point that takes the benefits beyond storage alone. I sure would have appreciated that option with our Grumman.

One of the guilty pleasures of my research these past two months has been to read the 2008-2010 back issues of the RVator. It's been a helpful orientation to understanding how broad this 'RV Scene' is. If not reading these all at once, you may have missed this reoccurring theme in Van's own columns about the -12 perhaps being the previously missing vehicle (no pun intended) for doing better outreach to non-pilots who nevertheless might be eager to step into aviation. I too think this is what makes the -12 a potential game changer in a broader sense. One example: Start with the trailer Vern describes (because enough small, local planes justify it) and imagine trailering a newly built -12 into the massive Sun City complex that's near my 2+ million Tampa/St. Pete metro area. Sun City is filled with many thousands of financially comfortable residents, clubs and hobby groups of all kinds, and no doubt some who would find a build project appealing and a non-medical piloting opportunity even moreso. I don't think anyone knows what might spring from exposure like that. It's a great (and in some respects, better) thing to involve teens in a kit project; they carry that experience with them far longer than a new retiree. OTOH wouldn't it be nice to have both ends of the population helping to rebuild aviation at small airports. That would be game changing, too.

Jack

Self-rigger

I know this thread is going in a few directions, but for those of you who would like to remove the RV-12 wings unassisted, you should check out how the glider community has addressed this challenge. The solution is the "self rigging cradle". Check out this link to see how it works:

http://www.wingrigger.com/

I'm certain the self-riggers built for gliders wouldn't be a good fit for the RV-12, but the concept could be adapted easily enough.

M

Hey, I like their ideas. Larger wheels for grass is nice, but I was just wondering. If you pull one wing on a 12, will the other wing tip it over?

foka4 said:

I know this thread is going in a few directions, but for those of you who would like to remove the RV-12 wings unassisted, you should check out how the glider community has addressed this challenge. The solution is the "self rigging cradle". Check out this link to see how it works:

http://www.wingrigger.com/

I'm certain the self-riggers built for gliders wouldn't be a good fit for the RV-12, but the concept could be adapted easily enough.

M

Click to expand...

DonFromTX said:

Hey, I like their ideas. Larger wheels for grass isnice, but I was just wondering. If you pull one wing on a 12, will the other wing tip it over?

Click to expand...

Hi Don,

No the RV-12 is fine with one wing in place, one of our RV-12 guys removes just the left wing to get it in his hangar.

Best regards,
Vern

sf3543 said:

I don't care for the gas tank in the rear baggage area.
I'd say hardly anyone cares about removeable wings.
Maybe make a version with fixed wings and wing tanks and let people choose.

Click to expand...

The easily removable wings is what led to me ordering an RV-12 tail kit. Otherwise I would have gone with the Kitfox (folding wings). Hangar space is at a premium around here.

Trailer?

Kevin - if you come up with a reasonable trailer for your RV-12, I would be very interested in seeing it. Haven't built my 12 yet but really want to trailer it to and from the airport. Everyone says that I'll end up putting into a hanger on the trailer. Your thoughts?

E. D. Eliot said:

Kevin - if you come up with a reasonable trailer for your RV-12, I would be very interested in seeing it. Haven't built my 12 yet but really want to trailer it to and from the airport. Everyone says that I'll end up putting into a hanger on the trailer. Your thoughts?

Click to expand...

Vans says this plane can be trailered to the aiport. So what if it takes twenty minutes of rigging/unrigging? A dream trailer would be something like what gliders use, but shaped for an RV-12. However I understand an enclosed 102"(?) car carrier will also work - the one guys use to take their race cars to the track. I bet someone starts a thread in the next year or two that calls for builders to post pictures of their RV-12 trailers (I will if no one else does). I'm hoping that some RVator will have come up with some elegant solution by then that protects the plane and keeps the tail from wagging. Since I'm on the VSB program (very slow build), it'll be years before I have to worry about it, but I do think trailering the RV-12 is a viable option.

Whether you need removable wings or not, or like any other of the features, one thing is certain--this is one fine flying little airplane. The build time is so much less than my 9A, and the fuel burn is less (per hour anyway) than just about anything I have ever flown except maybe ultralights, that there is fantastic potential here. Now that I have flown one (for just two days now) I can see the appeal. While it is certainly different, and obviously lighter, it is an RV all the way. The view is amazing, and I even like the sound of the engine. Landings are almost Cub-like in their grace and low speed. It has that in-control feeling all the way down to stall. This will be the perfect plane for the partnership or small club, and the few oddities, I predict, will make it have an almost cult-like following. There isn't a perfect airplane for fun flying out there, but this one comes close, IMHO.

Bob

A friend, Steve C.,at the Auburn, Wash airport, has another solution. He has an enclosed trailer for his folding wing Aerotrek. After bringing it home for a while, he rented a tie-down spot at the airport and now keeps it there at tie-down rates instead of hangar rates.

Bob Bogash
N737G

Another great suggestion!

NASA515 said:

A friend, Steve C.,at the Auburn, Wash airport, has another solution. He has an enclosed trailer for his folding wing Aerotrek. After bringing it home for a while, he rented a tie-down spot at the airport and now keeps it there at tie-down rates instead of hangar rates.

Bob Bogash
N737G

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Eh, I'd rather have the trailer, aircrafts tend to fair better in enclosed space than to be left outside all the time.

NCGAPilot said:

Eh, I'd rather have the trailer, aircrafts tend to fair better in enclosed space than to be left outside all the time.

Click to expand...

I think he means that he leaves the airplane IN the trailer on the tie-down spot.

Roger that, Mel. He leaves the airplane IN the trailer. He's also told me it stores better in the trailer than in some hangars he's had, being quite tight, he has no problems with rain, dust and rodents.

In fact, you can see Steve pulling his airplane out of the trailer here - it's the yellow airplane with the enclosed trailer. I've flown with him in it. It takes just a few minutes.

http://www.aerotrek.aero/trailers.htm

Bob Bogash
N737G

RV-12

I'm in with the baggage area gas tank and removable wings. I know of one person who went Rans 19 because of it. Van's Skunkworks screwed this one up.
You're right in that they should have given us the option of removable wings or not.

1 person gone, ~700 kits sold. Hmmmmm......

JBPILOT said:

Agree with most of your points - EXCEPT - there are about 90 'DEMO' planes out there now. I have given several rides to serious buyers. We are doing the demo's for them.

John Bender

Click to expand...

Hi. Do you know of any completed RV12s we could get a ride in that are located near Tucson or Phoenix? We completed a 9A and a 6A so the 12 should be easy for us.

The removeable wing feature is VERY important to me. That way I can store it at home, annual at home, and park indoors so any comments on how easy the wings remove are welcome.

Please email directly to [email protected]

JBPILOT said:

Agree with most of your points - EXCEPT - there are about 90 'DEMO' planes out there now. I have given several rides to serious buyers. We are doing the demo's for them.

John Bender

Click to expand...

Hi. Do you know of any completed RV12s we could get a ride in that are located near Tucson or Phoenix? We completed a 9A and a 6A so the 12 should be easy for us.

The removeable wing feature is VERY important to me. That way I can store it at home, annual at home, and park indoors so any comments on how easily the wings remove are welcome.

Please email directly to [email protected]