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Dual brake mod opinions

nohoflyer

Well Known Member
Patron
I opened this can of worms on the RV-7 specific forum but wanted to get more opinions. I’m at the spot where I need to make the decision.

In case anyone else didn’t know, the basic RV-7 only comes with one set of brakes (for one side only). Vans makes a mod to put them on both sides.

Anyone with opinions on this? I guess in my 30 years of flying and always having two sets of brakes I’m just a bit perplexed.

Thx.
 
It is just an option for you to decide. I dont know anyone who didnt put both sides in but having it as an option gives you the choice. The second set does add cost to the kit price so Vans probably considers that for advertising.
 
I put them on my 6A. Extra cost and weight, they have been used once or twice. Worthwhile if you plan to do any primary training in the plane or have a pilot/flying spouse, child, friend, super capable dog, etc.
 
Only ever miss them rarely

My perspectives flying a pilot only brake airplane.

It does mean the pilot in the left seat has to be comfortable with the airplane, since these are mostly one pilot airplanes, only gets interesting when the plane is changing ownership, or getting a new pilot. Training starts in the right seat

Reliability is likely slightly better with one set of brakes. With two sets, one passes though the other so you don't get redundancy but you do get more fittings to leak/break.

I prefer two sets, but not a deal breaker IMHO.

Derek
 
I opened this can of worms on the RV-7 specific forum but wanted to get more opinions. I’m at the spot where I need to make the decision.

In case anyone else didn’t know, the basic RV-7 only comes with one set of brakes (for one side only). Vans makes a mod to put them on both sides.

Anyone with opinions on this? I guess in my 30 years of flying and always having two sets of brakes I’m just a bit perplexed.

Thx.

If you think you're perplexed now, wait till you go to hang the motor and not find it in the kit either.

When ordering a kit from Van's you find this page of airframe options https://www.vansaircraft.com/order-a-kit/airframe-options/ that you need to make decisions on if you want them added to your kit order. If the option did not arrive with your kit, and is not on the shipping list, then you never added it to your option list.

Now, is your question about Van's not providing the second brake kit at an added cost. Or is your question about whether or not you need the second set. And that is the reason Van's has it as an option.

If you purchased your kit second hand, I can understand the confusion. If you ordered from Van's, you must have missed the option list. If that is the case, there are more perplexed times ahead for you.

Relax and enjoy your build. Before long you will know the name of your UPS driver and the corner of your garage will be filled with cardboard boxes.

Here is an option.... https://vansairforce.net/community/showpost.php?p=1661246&postcount=8
 
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Brakes only on one side

I only installed brakes on the pilot side of my 9A. I’ve been flying it for 3 yrs/450hrs and it hasn’t been an issue. Lighter weight and less places to leak were my primary concern.
 
Dual Brakes

Also take into consideration its easier to put them in now than it will be later if there is any chance you may change your mind.
 
I’m pretty sure it will be an issue for most potential buyers wanting to buy your plane in the future. My used RV6 kit came with 1 set of brakes. I installed the other set with the kit from Vans when I had easy access during the build. Install your brake lines correctly, and you most likely won’t have to worry about extra leaks. I plan on flying with my grandkids and giving my wife enough stick time to be comfortable, including ground ops.

94182629-3D1C-4D06-BC19-AEFCEA639C9F.jpg
 
Maybe this will work……..



70839239-B986-4D78-8B23-E4ABB6C7CFF9.jpg

Nope….. there’s nothing I can do to turn a picture around. It looks fine in my picture files, but even modifying it doesn’t make a difference here. I give up!!
 
Single brakes

For many years single brakes were standard on Luscombe, some biplanes,etc

The idea is that if you didn’t want your taildragger or biplane on its back, don’t put brakes in front of a new pilot in training.

Flight schools would train you in the brake less seat before letting you fly from the brake side

Wisdom of the old school!
 
For many years single brakes were standard on Luscombe, some biplanes,etc

The idea is that if you didn’t want your taildragger or biplane on its back, don’t put brakes in front of a new pilot in training.

Flight schools would train you in the brake less seat before letting you fly from the brake side

Wisdom of the old school!

To your point, the Bucker is Pilot only brakes. The Fiat’s instructor position has a hydraulic disconnect valve for the Student brakes. They also have rudder bar disconnect and control stick disconnect, crazy. The stick literally goes limp when the instructor pulls a cable.
In past airplanes I have owned, or flown, all tailwheel, none had dual brakes….
So, naturally my 6 has Pilot side brakes only.
 
I originally ordered my kit without copilot brakes, but the reconsidered. After instructing for years it just seems wrong to not have a full set of controls on both sides.

I’ll be the first to admit that I doubt they’ll ever be used.
 
The second set of brakes is like that fire extinguisher hanging on the wall. Useless until you wish you had it. Put them in.

Roberta:)
 
If (when) I was buying a side-by-side airplane, I would (did) see a lack of brakes on the co-pilot’s side as a big negative.
 
Been flying my 7 going on 15 years. Never installed 'em. Never wished I had. Don't think I ever will.

Saved weight, saved money, gave a new taildragger pilot one less thing to worry about when carrying passengers as far as them inadvertently taking us on an off-runway excursion.

AND consider this; people are saying they are a royal pain to install on an already built airframe. That's true. But there are more connections to leak fluid and two more master cylinders to rebuild. Dumpster diving could very well happen more often not less. Refilling brake fluid after puck O-ring maintenance is easier with less of a chance for air to become trapped in the extra lines. Two fewer pedals to pump to get entrapped air out. If you put them in they will eventually cost more in maintenance. Possible multiple dumpster dives more than a two brake system during years of ownership. If you pay your A&P then your labor rate is going to be more. My Cherokee didn't have them and I never wished I had them then either. In fact that hand brake made maintaining the system a horror. If heaven forbid, I do sell, then I'll take a bit less money or install them for the buyer. Brakes can be installed later by anyone willing, including the buyer who wants to save money.
Your airplane, personal decision, no wrong answer. Now I'm going to get more coffee...:)
 
Been flying my 7 going on 15 years. Never installed 'em. Never wished I had. Don't think I ever will.

Saved weight, saved money, gave a new taildragger pilot one less thing to worry about when carrying passengers as far as them inadvertently taking us on an off-runway excursion.

AND consider this; people are saying they are a royal pain to install on an already built airframe. That's true. But there are more connections to leak fluid and two more master cylinders to rebuild. Dumpster diving could very well happen more often not less. Refilling brake fluid after puck O-ring maintenance is easier with less of a chance for air to become trapped in the extra lines. Two fewer pedals to pump to get entrapped air out. If you put them in they will eventually cost more in maintenance. Possible multiple dumpster dives more than a two brake system during years of ownership. If you pay your A&P then your labor rate is going to be more. My Cherokee didn't have them and I never wished I had them then either. In fact that hand brake made maintaining the system a horror. If heaven forbid, I do sell, then I'll take a bit less money or install them for the buyer. Brakes can be installed later by anyone willing, including the buyer who wants to save money.
Your airplane, personal decision, no wrong answer. Now I'm going to get more coffee...:)

Yup, pretty much what I would say -- except I did install them on the right side only to remove them later for the reasons stated above.
 
Pilot side only

I agree with Caveman. I’ve been flying my plane for 14 years with only pilot side brakes and don’t miss or want brakes on the right side.

It also give you a little more room to work under the panel
 
This is really a personal choice.

I bought my plane flying and added copilot brakes. It's convenient if parked on a slope to say "grab the brakes". Also, it's covenient to be able to have the right-seater taxi if I'm grabbing a clerance or whatever.

OTOH, I've considered making the right stick removable for comfort of a non-pilot passenger. Perhaps removable rudders and brakes would be good too? (just kidding, I ain't bleeding brake lines any more than needed)
 
Surprised

I am surprised at how many do not have the second set. It never even occurred to me to not have them on both sides. I planned on taking my lessons and get my license in my plane and knew the instructor was going to require them.

I am for building what you want and guess I understand not needing them if you already were experienced and didnt need to take lessons.

I didnt install a parking brake and I wish I had!
 
I have a -9A, 16 years old this Apr, with dual brakes. I installed them during the build, much easier than after. As an IP, I won't instruct unless the aircraft has dual brakes. Just me. Dan from Reno
 
Maybe this will work……..
Nope….. there’s nothing I can do to turn a picture around. It looks fine in my picture files, but even modifying it doesn’t make a difference here. I give up!!

The EXIF data for scaled images can get messed up with this version of vbulletin which is what causes this, unavoidable, maybe one day we can upgrade it.

Also, Beringer brakes are certainly an option :D
 
I figured the flight instruction thing would come up. Maybe I'm lucky but I've flown with CFI's at least every two years to get my flight review and never ever had to hunt to find an instructor to fly with me. More than once they gave instruction for free because they'd never flown an RV and wanted to try it and refused to take payment.

True story... one CFI I handed cash, and he refused it. When he turned to walk away, I stuck it in his coat pocket anyway. He pulled it out and tossed it on the ramp. Then he went and ordered a 7 kit. Seriously!

And I've flown with at least 5 different instructors from at least five different airports since building the RV. I like getting different opinions and techniques and seem to learn something new from each of them.

One flight review I borrowed a friend's 182 just to get some time in something else, so you can always borrow or rent something. It just has not been a problem at all...

Just my experience regarding instruction in a "one set of brakes RV"...
 
If you can't land a GA aircraft under 3000# without brakes, you shouldn't have a license. And an instructor that won't fly with you in an RV that you have flown for say 500 hours...... well, let's just say that's a shame and I refer you to my above statement.

You don't NEED brakes on a steerable tailwheel. And you can get by if you need to with no brakes on an A model.... Inconvenient, yes. But doable to complete a flight.

If you think that you will have someone with you 30% of the time, then RH side brakes make sense. But if you fly solo 90% of the time, they are useless and add cost, weight and complexity to your aircraft.

Keep in mind if the student is in the left seat and operating the brakes, the instructor in the right seat has NO CONTROL over applying the brakes.
 
If you can't land a GA aircraft under 3000# without brakes, you shouldn't have a license.

I can land and stop a 104,000 lb turbojet without brakes. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. Or maybe it means I shouldn't have a license. I suppose it depends on your point of view.

If I'm flying with a known student who's experienced on his or her RV, the lack of brakes on my side is not a deal breaker.

But for primary training, tailwheel endorsements, type-specific transition training, getting a rusty pilot back up to speed, seeking out strong crosswinds for the student's experience, etc. those brakes could mean the difference between a sloppy landing that I recover and a full on ground loop.

Brakes on my side also mean I can give better instruction, because I can let the student stray a little further without intervening. Without brakes, I'm going to be on the rudder pedals sooner than I otherwise would because I lack one of the last-resort tools for re-aligning the aircraft's heading and direction of travel.

When I instruct in a tailwheel aircraft without right/rear seat brakes, I'm always careful to brief the student so we're both on the same page about what I can and cannot do for them. I once had a student in an RV-6 drop something on the floor in a run-up area, and without a second thought he said "your airplane" and took his feet off the pedals to search for the lost item. I had to quickly remind him I had no brakes on my side.

--Ron
 
I'm a flight instructor and plan on doing transition instruction with my RV7 period. I have to have dual brakes.

If I was instructing in your RV and you were not current or a rated pilot, I'd be PIC. I'd need brakes.

So if you see training in the future consider it.
 
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I do agree, if you are going to provide training in your RV, install the dual brakes. But, that would only apply to less than 1 in a hundred RV's.
Van made them an option for that very reason.

You see people post all the time "My RV7 cost $110,000.00" Maybe you didn't need dual brakes, a quickbuild kit, Dual Dynon screens, leather upholstery, Air brushed 6 color paint, drop in panel from vender, EFI O390 with ported heads.... you get the point. If you keep adding in the things that you don't need, the cost and weight goes up. And the wife's enthusiasm goes down.....:eek:

Here is what the FAA has to say about brakes....

From AOPA

REGULATORY BRIEF -- FAA ISSUES NEW INTERPRETATION OF "DUAL CONTROLS"
REGULATORY BRIEF
FAA issues new interpretation of "dual controls"
The issue:
Recently the FAA issued yet another interpretation of "dual controls." The latest interpretation is intended to end the debate over whether or not dual brakes are required under parts 61 and 91 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs) in aircraft being used for flight instruction and practical tests. Although previous interpretations reinforced that dual brakes were not required for flight instruction, it was unclear whether or not the interpretation applied to FAR Part 61 regulatory requirements for aircraft being used for flight instructor practical tests. The FAA's most recent interpretation -- contained in an amendment to the Inspector's Handbook -- ends the debate over dual brakes for both types of operations.
The importance to our members:
Most of the Mooney M20 series airplanes, many Beech Bonanza models, Beech Barons, Piper Apaches, and many other high and low performance single and twin engine airplanes are certified as "dual control" without being equipped with dual brakes. A series of recently issued FAA letters of interpretation stated that such airplanes could not be used for flight instruction because they did not meet the regulatory requirements of 14 C.F.R. � 91.109(a). Other recently issued FAA interpretations stated that aircraft without dual brakes could not be used for flight instructor practical tests because the applicant could not perform the required tasks without access to the brakes. These interpretations effectively eliminated a substantial portion of the GA fleet from being used for flight training or CFI checkrides.
Significant Provisions:
The part 91 regulation in question is � 91. 109(a) where it states (in pertinent part) "No person may operate a civil aircraft (except a manned free balloon) that is being used for flight instruction unless that aircraft has fully functioning dual controls."
The first two FAA interpretations of this regulation (one from FAA's Eastern Regional Counsel and the other from FAA Assistant Chief Counsel) interpreted the dual control requirements of � 91.109(a) to mean that brakes, either toe- and/or heel-brakes or a hand/parking brake, must be accessible from either seat.
The latest FAA interpretation (from FAA Assistant Chief Counsel) recants on the agency's original interpretation and states "It has been a long-standing AFS technical position that brakes are not required controls under section 91.109(a). The term "dual controls" under section 91.109(a) refers to flight controls (e.g. pitch, yaw, and roll controls). These flight controls are the only required dual controls for the purposes of meeting the requirements under section 91.109(a)."
Under the latest FAA Chief Counsel interpretation brakes are not included in the dual control requirements of � 91.109(a) and are not required equipment when conducting instruction in an airplane.
 
I can land and stop a 104,000 lb turbojet without brakes. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. Or maybe it means I shouldn't have a license. I suppose it depends on your point of view.

If I'm flying with a known student who's experienced on his or her RV, the lack of brakes on my side is not a deal breaker.

But for primary training, tailwheel endorsements, type-specific transition training, getting a rusty pilot back up to speed, seeking out strong crosswinds for the student's experience, etc. those brakes could mean the difference between a sloppy landing that I recover and a full on ground loop.

Brakes on my side also mean I can give better instruction, because I can let the student stray a little further without intervening. Without brakes, I'm going to be on the rudder pedals sooner than I otherwise would because I lack one of the last-resort tools for re-aligning the aircraft's heading and direction of travel.

When I instruct in a tailwheel aircraft without right/rear seat brakes, I'm always careful to brief the student so we're both on the same page about what I can and cannot do for them. I once had a student in an RV-6 drop something on the floor in a run-up area, and without a second thought he said "your airplane" and took his feet off the pedals to search for the lost item. I had to quickly remind him I had no brakes on my side.

--Ron

+1. An excellent summary.

I can’t help but note that most of those who say ‘not needed’ are not CFI’s, while most of the cfi’s are saying ‘are needed’. As to Flight Reviews, I’m happy to do them without brakes - as long as the pilot flying agrees, explicitly, to be PIC.

Something not mentioned here are deviations from the center line on takeoff. Usually low time, but beyond student, pilots. In some cases even going off the side of the runway. It seems some pilots are so uncomfortable or unsure of using their feet that they think doing nothing is the better choice.
 
This is a timely thread. I just finished building the passenger brake pedals, but after reading this and weighing the parts I’ve decided to leave them out.
 
If you can't land a GA aircraft under 3000# without brakes, you shouldn't have a license. And an instructor that won't fly with you in an RV that you have flown for say 500 hours...... well, let's just say that's a shame and I refer you to my above statement.

You don't NEED brakes on a steerable tailwheel. And you can get by if you need to with no brakes on an A model.... Inconvenient, yes. But doable to complete a flight.

If you think that you will have someone with you 30% of the time, then RH side brakes make sense. But if you fly solo 90% of the time, they are useless and add cost, weight and complexity to your aircraft.

Keep in mind if the student is in the left seat and operating the brakes, the instructor in the right seat has NO CONTROL over applying the brakes.

I know Im no expert but there is no way I could taxi or stay on centerline with no brakes on my A model. My rudder has almost no authority at under 10-12 mph. I flew this morning and tried. Once I was rolling at a good clip while taxiing I was fine without brakes. On the runway at launch, I needed pretty good right brakes until I was above 25-30 knots.

But - there is a money and weight savings so if you dont need to instruct or be instructed in your plane, I can see not installing them. And I agree - if you have time in your plane I dont see why an instructor would have a problem doing a bi-annual flight check without brakes on his side. It would probably be more comfortable for the passenger too.
 
I see it as a personal preference. Like glass or no glass, fuel injected or carbureted, tail wheel or tricycle gear, Ford or Chevy, Mac, or PC. There must be 1000 such decisions to make in the course of building an airplane, or even buying one already built. It’s Experimental Aviation. I can’t imagine there is a universally right or wrong answer for such a minor construction decision, only fulfilling the wants and needs of the individual builder/buyer.
 
All great replies. Thank you. I would have thought for sure this topic would have been a sticky but it was not. Perhaps it should be.
 
All great replies. Thank you. I would have thought for sure this topic would have been a sticky but it was not. Perhaps it should be.

I suspect that many of us non-builders had never realized it was a not-uncommonly applied building choice.
 
I know Im no expert but there is no way I could taxi or stay on centerline with no brakes on my A model. My rudder has almost no authority at under 10-12 mph. I flew this morning and tried. Once I was rolling at a good clip while taxiing I was fine without brakes.
You can get momentary rudder authority with a burst of power to increase airflow over the tail. It speeds you up a little, so do it when you're slow. Burst of power, steer, power idle, coast. Rinse and repeat.
 
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