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Panel planning - part uno

Would love your thoughts

As I go through my panel process, I know many of you are also planning or have done a panel replacement in the past. Or anyone who has built their perfect panel. I'd love to receive any tips, tricks and thoughts on what I'm building. There is never enough information! Thanks in advance for sharing. :D
 
Looks pretty good, but you may have fallen prey to the common mistake of designing the panel for engine start. When you're starting the engine, you've got all kinds of time, but when you're in the air, you can get busy and want to find the correct switch right now!

The one specific point is the fuel pump. You'll want it for engine start, sure, but you'll probably turn it off after takeoff and back on before landing. If that's how you plan to use it, don't bury it in the middle of the pack.

Another good exercise is to write up all of your checklists and then run them against your panel layout. Ideally, things should flow, so things get operated in a smooth pattern, not jumping back and forth. Boeing jets have really good flow, Gulfstream jets are at the other end of the spectrum.

My RV-8 has a neat feature (I bought the plane, didn't do the panel). The flap and fuel pump switches are adjacent to each other on the left side, with no other switches around. Handy for landing and for after landing.

Enjoy!

Ed
 
Ed,
The flap switch and fuel pump switch is a great idea. I like grouping those together and will make my next revision. Thanks for the advice on that!

Looks pretty good, but you may have fallen prey to the common mistake of designing the panel for engine start. When you're starting the engine, you've got all kinds of time, but when you're in the air, you can get busy and want to find the correct switch right now!

The one specific point is the fuel pump. You'll want it for engine start, sure, but you'll probably turn it off after takeoff and back on before landing. If that's how you plan to use it, don't bury it in the middle of the pack.

Another good exercise is to write up all of your checklists and then run them against your panel layout. Ideally, things should flow, so things get operated in a smooth pattern, not jumping back and forth. Boeing jets have really good flow, Gulfstream jets are at the other end of the spectrum.

My RV-8 has a neat feature (I bought the plane, didn't do the panel). The flap and fuel pump switches are adjacent to each other on the left side, with no other switches around. Handy for landing and for after landing.

Enjoy!

Ed
 
Itch

Before starting my 10 build I went over and and looked at Vic?s 10 . One impressive feature he pointed out as we were up flying is he has the electric fuel pump switch,flap switch and alternate air knob all right above his throttle quadrant close to where his right hand is, I will have this on my panel. Pete
 
An RV7 I did for a customer, VFR but provisions for a GTN650 by removing one of the com's.
Some ideas on back up, switch positions etc.., take it or leave it.
I would also recommend you try to avoid extending the bottom of the panel, makes getting in and out more difficult and your longer legged passengers will have leg room issues.

KW-G3X-1200.jpg
 
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Great thread, I have recently started a wish list for what my ideal panel will look like. Walt, the panel you did for your brother's RV7 is exactly what I want in my 7.

What have most folks realistically budgeted for a panel "Re Do"?
 
I notice a lot of people are still putting the audio panel at the top of the radio stack. If you consider the very few times you touch the audio panel in flight, why put it in the prime real estate location (top and center)?. Move it to the bottom of the stack and get the grossly overpriced IFR navigator up top where it is easier to see in your scan.

It looks like if you move both displays a little to the left you can move both EFIS displays up a little (same reasoning). There might be option to move the knob panels (or make them horizontal) so that you only have the radio stack between the two displays. This make the right display much more functional to the pilot. I use the right display as the engine monitor and ?scratch pad? moving map so I can zoom out for weather down track and such. Even with both EFIS panels biased left, there is not issue flying from the right seat.

On the knob panel, consider moving the switches on the far left to the apron, and perhaps moving the vent to a mount below the apron. The knob panel can then go horizontal below your backup display - easy place for your left hand to get to. You will find the knob panel gets more use than anything else in the panel. If you do that, then perhaps your Autopilot panel can go horizontal under the radio stack.

Last - when you build the panel make sure you design in maintenance. Any modern EFIS panel can be made to be removed from the airplane in 15 minutes or less. It is a lot easier to work stuff on the bench than on your back with your head under the panel.

Carl
 
Great thread, I have recently started a wish list for what my ideal panel will look like. Walt, the panel you did for your brother's RV7 is exactly what I want in my 7.

What have most folks realistically budgeted for a panel "Re Do"?

Here's the one I did for my brother. The AS indicator has since been replaced with the G5. Budget gets a little steep for this one, figure around 50K (15K labor) installed with all the goodies :D

IMG_7408-650.jpg
 
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An RV7 I did for a customer, VFR but provisions for a GTN650 by removing one of the com's.
Some ideas on back up, switch positions etc.., take it or leave it.
I would also recommend you try to avoid extending the bottom of the panel, makes getting in and out more difficult and your longer legged passengers will have leg room issues.

KW-G3X-1200.jpg

A very neat setup. Very clear an uncluttered.
Would it be possible to see a higher resolution picture ? I have a hard time with some of the labels.
 
A very neat setup. Very clear an uncluttered.
Would it be possible to see a higher resolution picture ? I have a hard time with some of the labels.

I have the hi-res pics on my desk top, I'll see if I can upload one to smugmug when I get home.
 
Here's the one I did for my brother. The AS indicator has since been replaced with the G5. Budget gets a little steep for this one, figure around 50K (15K labor) installed with all the goodies :D

IMG_7408-650.jpg

Really like this setup! Especially with a G5 as backup!
Maybe I'd put the autopilot control panel on top and even push it half an inch more up. But not sure about that.
 
Certainly not a must but I like the flap switch where I can use it with my hand on the throttle. Therefore I would put it on the left and the fuel pump switch on the right. The reach would not be quite as awkward.
 
Certainly not a must but I like the flap switch where I can use it with my hand on the throttle. Therefore I would put it on the left and the fuel pump switch on the right. The reach would not be quite as awkward.

Great callout. Thanks!
 
Ed, great comments. I have rearranged the panel based on your input and went through my checklist. I will review my checklists again to ensure they capture all of my motions nicely. Very insightful, thanks.

Looks pretty good, but you may have fallen prey to the common mistake of designing the panel for engine start. When you're starting the engine, you've got all kinds of time, but when you're in the air, you can get busy and want to find the correct switch right now!

The one specific point is the fuel pump. You'll want it for engine start, sure, but you'll probably turn it off after takeoff and back on before landing. If that's how you plan to use it, don't bury it in the middle of the pack.

Another good exercise is to write up all of your checklists and then run them against your panel layout. Ideally, things should flow, so things get operated in a smooth pattern, not jumping back and forth. Boeing jets have really good flow, Gulfstream jets are at the other end of the spectrum.

My RV-8 has a neat feature (I bought the plane, didn't do the panel). The flap and fuel pump switches are adjacent to each other on the left side, with no other switches around. Handy for landing and for after landing.

Enjoy!

Ed
 
Why do you not use remote radios but radios with a display?

I prefer in panel radios, no menus, easier to operate, knobs for volumes etc.
I only use remotes if I don't have enough panel space for the panel mount unit.
 
I installed the Dynon knob panel below the throttles. See picture below. This puts them right next to my right hand as it sits on my knee. Many people told me that these buttons get used the most. If flying on autopilot, the planes direction and altitude can be adjusted with minimal effort.

FP22052017A0000V.jpg
 
I installed the Dynon knob panel below the throttles. See picture below. This puts them right next to my right hand as it sits on my knee. Many people told me that these buttons get used the most. If flying on autopilot, the planes direction and altitude can be adjusted with minimal effort.
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I would favor mounting them high. When people say ?minimal effort? for something like this, they mean ?minimum eye movement?, not hand movement. There is a noticable increase in ?time eyes are not outside? when using low-mounted avionics. Similarly, for IFR, you want these controls close to your AI, not way low and off to the side. My two cents.
 
I would favor mounting them high. When people say ‘minimal effort’ for something like this, they mean ‘minimum eye movement’, not hand movement. There is a noticable increase in ‘time eyes are not outside’ when using low-mounted avionics. Similarly, for IFR, you want these controls close to your AI, not way low and off to the side. My two cents.

Full ack.
One thing I can imagine where you want to have proximity to your hands are Push To Talk buttons, trim and maybe the autopilot's Go Around button (upper left of your throttle so you can push it with your thumb while still pushing the throttle in).

My favorite place for the autopilot is right under the dash.

EDIT: Forgot the AP disengage and if you want to use it a CWS button. Both on the stick.
 
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Full ack.
One thing I can imagine where you want to have proximity to your hands are Push To Talk buttons, trim and maybe the autopilot's Go Around button (upper left of your throttle so you can push it with your thumb while still pushing the throttle in).

My favorite place for the autopilot is right under the dash.

EDIT: Forgot the AP disengage and if you want to use it a CWS button. Both on the stick.

My philosophy I should much more along the lines of 219PB. I think it?s a lot easier to move the eyes an extra 6-8 inches than to move he hand that much extra, especially when bouncing around. There is more reason than one that most screens have all buttons and knobs at the bottom, imho. Also, when twisting a knob, you may or may not even need to look to find the knob, but once you start twisting, you don?t look at he knob, you look at the screen. For example, the Dynon knob Panel is set up in a way hat you don?t ever need to look at it once you are used to how it is situated in your plane, especially if close to the hand in its resting place. Having that at the top of the panel would be my absolute last choice.

In response to another post earlier, the audio panel is often at he top because it isn?t as deep and usually has an angled back so it can go much higher than other instruments, often as much higher as it is tall, so it effectively uses less real estate at the top than anywhere else.
 
One thing that you must keep in mind when you lay your panel out is that in an emergency (high stress), your fine motor skills are one of the first thing to out the window. Thus, be careful about putting switches, buttons, and breakers really close together. I have somewhat large hands so I was selective in my spacing.

Although updated since this picture was taken, the switch position and functions have not changed.

(click to enlarge)

I planned my panel layout based on "Phase of Flight".

This means that all the switches are grouped based on what I'm doing in flight, not by putting all the light switches together.

On my side-by-side RV, I have the Cessna style split master all the way on the left. Immediately to the right are the two igntion toggle switches, and to the right of that is the starter button.

Next is the avionics master.

Then comes the other key switches:
Strobes lights
Position lights
Taxi light
Landing light
Fuel pump
Carb heat
Throttle
Mixture
Flap switch

The interior lights, cabin heat, etc. are all the way over on the right side, where the passenger can play with them.

When I am in the pattern, my hand rests on the throttle quadrant and when it is time to land, I flip on the taxi and landing lights, fuel pump, pull out the carb heat, and my hand goes back on the throttle quadrant.

Without moving my hand off the quadrant, I can toggle down the flaps with the index finger of my right hand.

On a go-around, I can push and hold the throttle and mixture full forward, my thumb pushes the carb heat in, and my index fingers toggles the flaps up, all without moving my hand.

In bumpy air, this works really well as I'm still resting my hand on the quadrant and don't have to move it to lower the flaps.

Although I have redon my panel a few times, the switch placement has not changed in 11 years and has proven to be well thought out.

Here is a picture of my had on the throttle quadrant:


(Click to enlarge)
 
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Panel layout things that that make me wonder what the designer was thinking.

1. Flap switches placed all over the place. (Down by the flap motor, at the top of the glairshield, etc.)
2. Key switch directly above the master switch or other critical switches. (A key ring could turn something off at the wrong time.)
3. Avionics master switch right next to the fuel pump switch. (Let's reboot the panel when turning off the fuel pump.)

There are some other things, but I can't think of them right now.
 
Flap switch does not go on the left side!

In the same way that it doesn't make sense to build a custom motorcycle and change swap the controls around and how they operate, it doesn't make sense to "innovate" on switch location -- someday, somebody is going to fly a non-standard airplane and be confused and maybe use the wrong switch, or somebody who is used to this airplane will fly a different airpane and maybe use the wrong switch.

Flaps go on the right of the power controls, or in the center, according to FAR23.777:
(f) Wing flap and auxiliary lift device controls must be located?
(1) Centrally, or to the right of the pedestal or powerplant throttle control centerline;

Similarly, trim switches should rotate in the direction that the airplane will rotate. Model airplanes do it backwards, I believe.

Yes, it's an experimental and you can do what you want, but there may be consequences down the road.

I checked a bunch of C712 panel pictures with google, and some of the simulators had the flap switch on the left of the power controls, possibly to save space, but all the airplanes had the flap switch on the right.

On another topic, the screen in the middle is a GTN750, I believe.
 
Also, a traditional location for carb heat is just to the left of the throttle, so that you can push it in on a go-around as you push in the throttle.

If you're going IFR, having the strobes and pitot adjacent is handy so that you can turn off strobes and pitot head on going into a cloud, and vice versa.

Also, have strobes handy so you can turn them on right before takeoff and turn them off after landing. Strobes on the ground can be very distracting to those in other planes, just like high beam headlights on the road.

I've published a few article on this topic over the years. I emailed the current editor to see if I could reprint, and he did not bother to answer. Maybe I'll just write up a fresh article and post it here.
 
...I checked a bunch of C712 panel pictures with google, and some of the simulators had the flap switch on the left of the power controls, possibly to save space, but all the airplanes had the flap switch on the right...

Did you intend C172??
 
In the same way that it doesn't make sense to build a custom motorcycle and change swap the controls around and how they operate, it doesn't make sense to "innovate" on switch location -- someday, somebody is going to fly a non-standard airplane and be confused and maybe use the wrong switch, or somebody who is used to this airplane will fly a different airpane and maybe use the wrong switch.

Flaps go on the right of the power controls, or in the center, according to FAR23.777:
(f) Wing flap and auxiliary lift device controls must be located?
(1) Centrally, or to the right of the pedestal or powerplant throttle control centerline;

Interesting. Most bonanzas have a flap on the left, gear on the right. Of course, a lot of inadvertent gear ups have happened because of this. Maybe they are certified under the CAR rules but pretty sure there's FAR 23 bonanzas with the flap on the left.

For what it's worth, I'd prefer everything to be standard too.
 
Updated panel

Updated my blog based on all the great feedback thus far. Looking forward to continuing to refine and have now engaged UpNorthAviation to help finalize the layout. Love to hear feedback on the panel. I also am installing my gear switch just to the left of the throttle. I think it?ll be best there.

Here?s a recent photo arriving into Oshkosh.

A807C185-91F9-4402-AEEE-323AC810ADA6_zpsgt5xovkw.jpg


388F5B1A-0076-4A2F-9E75-52B954C1F420_zps3ctn8hq0.jpg



Lol. Ok, it?s not a retract, but it sure looks cool. Hahahaha.
 
A consideration is putting the carb heat where the alternate air knob is. In a go around situation you could just stick you thumb out and hit throttle and carb heat. Of course you can use the palm of your hand and fingers extended and probably get the throttle, mixture, and carb heat with one motion the way you have it now. You may never use the alternate air.
 
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I'm not sure if you have considered the support structure that is required behind the panel. The radio stack requires some angle pieces to mount those racks. I'm not sure if you have allowed for those pieces in your layout. It doesn't seem like you have. If you look at the other pics folks have posted you see a gap between the radio stack and the adjacent units.
 
Yeah, the exact spacing I?m going to let UpNorth manage as he does the official design plan in CAD. I suspect all of my items will move slightly, a another example being the fuses. Thanks!


I'm not sure if you have considered the support structure that is required behind the panel. The radio stack requires some angle pieces to mount those racks. I'm not sure if you have allowed for those pieces in your layout. It doesn't seem like you have. If you look at the other pics folks have posted you see a gap between the radio stack and the adjacent units.
 
On RVs, carb heat and alternate are the same thing. You only need one knob, and the preferred location is to the left of the throttle.

You might want to check your circuit breaker spacing. They take up space behind the panel and the CBs I'm familiar with probably wouldn't fit in the space you've allocated. And in the same way that it makes sense to group and outline switches, do that for circuit breakers.

I'm not familiar with how Dynon systems do updates, but on my plane, I wish I had a way to power up just the avionics having database updated rather than running the battery down with everything on or without pulling a bunch of circuit breakers.

Ed
 
On RVs, carb heat and alternate are the same thing.

Alternate Air (Filtered Airbox Bypass) is not the same thing as carb heat. Filtered Airbox Bypass is a separate control for use in case of intake filter blockage. https://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/Fab-sb_05.pdf

It doesn't take a lot of snow to clog the FAB pleats and starve the engine of induction air. I know of two RV fatalities and a forced landing resulting from this.

It is a great idea to install the FAB Bypass that Van's provides (in addition to the carb heat control).
 
Here’s a recent photo arriving into Oshkosh.
A807C185-91F9-4402-AEEE-323AC810ADA6_zpsgt5xovkw.jpg
388F5B1A-0076-4A2F-9E75-52B954C1F420_zps3ctn8hq0.jpg

Lol. Ok, it’s not a retract, but it sure looks cool. Hahahaha.

I can't believe you would leave those "GodAwfull" steps hanging out in the breeze! Gotta cost you at least 0.2 kts.
 
Think about what switches and equipment you will use during various phases of flight, and make it easy to find those switches, then make panel as pretty as possible, rather that starting with a pretty panel and making it as usable as possible.

Dynon D10 is certainly last decade equipment. Suggest you replace with either GRT Mini B or Garmin D5. Both are superior, lighter, easier to install, have better displays and consume less power.

Do you need an Alt switch? With modern alternators probably serves no purpose. See Bob Nuckoll's articles for more detail.

I would put landing light switch next to the boost pump as they are the 2 switches you need to find when approaching the pattern. Radio callsign placard is probably better placed at the top of the panel so eyes move less from looking outside to finding placard when brain goes blank after pressing PTT...

Agree more space is required for c/bs (although I would use fuses behind the panel).

I would install an AP OFF switch to kill the AP in emergency if ever required.

Do you need a 530 (or 750) with 2 x 10" displays? Would a 430/650 be adequate (and less expensive) also easier to use AP panels and radios if horizontal, slimmer nav/com/gps would allow everything to be horizontal and Dynons to be closer together making scan easier. When its bumpy can be difficult to get hold of the correct knob.

Structure behind the panel is a significant consideration!

Switches close to the bottom of the panel will get kicked / snag on your pants as you climb in.

Just my opinion...
Pete
 
I did similar with AFS and a G5 because I wanted a 3rd backup from a different manufacturer to lesson the potential issue of a common software glitch and to use as a tiebreaker if the primary AHRSs disagree. This is an idea I got from other builders here on VAF.

The picture to me looks like smaller Dynon, however. This certainly has significantly different software than the Skyviews and may add some interconnectivity with the rest of his system.
 
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Almost done

The panel planning has been a great learning experience around avionics, what is needed and how fast one can run out of panel space. We are 90% finalized in the layout and almost ready to cut.

Check out my latest blog update if you are interested in the official CAD layout. One neat thing we did was identify how to place, cut and incorporate the vents into one sheet of aluminum to create a refined finish.

I chose to buy the D10a because it was used and saved me quite a bit over a G5 or mini-extreme.

https://rvpilotlife.wordpress.com/2018/08/16/panel-planning-take-two/

BDE5D0B0-5770-4073-92BD-0AD3BC2E21F2_zps9dtnaikv.png
 
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