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A&P License using Amateur Built Experience

ande159

I'm New Here
Greetings All,

It's been 10+ years since this was discussed as best I can tell. I'm curious if there has been any movement on the topic of using time amateur building an experimental airplane "under the supervision of an A&P" as apprenticeship credit toward the required hours to sit for the A&P exam with the FAA.

EAA has an article posted (link below) that it's possible to do this but a lot of discretion is left to the FAA to decide whether or not said experience counts.

Has anyone done this lately or know anyone that's had success going this route? I'd love to build/have an RV-8 and also have my A&P....this seems like a good way to get both in the same effort.

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-bu...GA_v6wKbAywXyiLEylwlHRvv9TiPcrRmJbVIg3DpBruV4
 
I recently acquired the 8610-2 sign off to take the A&P tests. I provided documentation of a variety of experience from my professional aircraft paint experience, maintenance performed under supervision on my own certified aircraft as well as experience gained working on my RV8 kit. I would say the kit building definitely made a positive impression and the inspector definitely took it into consideration.
 
I recently acquired the 8610-2 sign off to take the A&P tests. I provided documentation of a variety of experience from my professional aircraft paint experience, maintenance performed under supervision on my own certified aircraft as well as experience gained working on my RV8 kit. I would say the kit building definitely made a positive impression and the inspector definitely took it into consideration.

How many total hours did you have logged to present to the examiner and how many of those were building the RV-8? I also have a certified aircraft which I can log time working on as the owner/operator so I guess that helps.
 
I wrote up a bit of my experience doing this a couple fo years ago, and we discussed it on this thread:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=147776

The bottom line is that it will take considerably more than building one airplane to meet the requirements for most inspectors - I had been working on GA and experimental aircraft under A&P’s for decades, and had three repairman certificates for planes I had built. The real tough part for most homebuilders is qualifying for the “P” part - most haven’t done real engine work, just installed and worked on accessories. But....if you’ve got the experience, go for it!

Paul
 
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I just got laid off after 15 years in the oilfield. I am ready to to get my 8610-2 application reviewed but the FSDO in Houston is not accepting appointments until this pandemic is over. 30-60 days. I?ve got my DD-214 showing my airframe schools, a letter of recommendation from an A&P and I?m presenting the letter from Mel that I was going to use to get my repairman certificate for good measure.
 
I wrote up a bit of my experience doing this a couple fo years ago, and we discussed it on this thread:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=147776

Teh bottom lien is that it will take considerably more than building one airplane to meet the requirements for most inspectors - I had been working on GA and experimental aircraft under A&P?s for decades, and had three repairman certificates for planes I had built. The real tough part for most homebuilders is qualifying for the ?P? part - most haven?t done real engine work, just installed and worked on accessories. But....if you?ve got the experience, go for it!

Paul


Would they take into consideration automotive engines ? Transmissions (PSRU) ?
 
I got my 8610-2 approved a couple months ago based on experience maintaining my own airplanes over 40+ years. I listed my 2 RV builds but the inspector said they couldn't count but I had plenty of experience otherwise. Along with the recommendation letter I included a kind of CV with all my aviation related background - education, airline jobs, aircraft ownership and piloting experience, etc. Instead of a log of hours I made a list of all the significant maintenance tasks I had done over the years. The IA that signed my letter said I had more backup than others he had signed off. It might have been overkill but it worked.

I had a lot of trouble finding a sample letter so I'm linking to mine hoping it will help someone else. Just an example, no guarantees, YMMV, yada yada?
http://www.bentwing.com/files/Submitted letter and qualifications - scrubbed.pdf
 
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I recently got my approval to take the tests. I had built 1.5 airplanes and worked on several other certified and experimental aircraft, done several engine overhauls, etc. over a 14 year time period. I got lucky in that the FAA inspector who did my repairman certificate was also at our local airshow/flying and saw my airplane in person. Seeing examples of my workmanship helped. I also had three recommendation letters from A&P/IA's that I had worked with over the years further documenting my experience.

In my logs, I made sure that I documented the subjects that we worked on that are listed in the Appendices B, C, and D to part 147. This way, I made sure that I had documented evidence of the subjects that I had training in and I could better prove to the inspector that I had experience in more than 50% of them.

Check your FSDO's website. Mine had a form that I found out about too late that formats your documented experience in a way that makes it easier for them to determine if you qualify or not.

Its a long road to get an A&P this way, but it can be done.

I'm working on the written exams now. Not sure how I'm going to be able to take the tests though.
 
It appears that this situation is much like the airworthiness inspection, varies from fsdo to fsdo. About 5 years ago I was lucky enough to get a legit job working in a well regarded shop. Early on in my employment there, I contacted the Baltimore fsdo regarding a possible reduction in the amount of work experience hours in consideration of the airplanes I’ve built. I was told to give them a call when I had 30 months of full time employment, working on certificated aircraft.

On another occasion I contacted an old buddy that worked at the same fsdo regarding an initial airworthiness inspection on my current project. My buddy told me that he would love to do it for me. He also said that if he did, his name would be mudd around there. The airworthiness guys had had all been told to not go near an experimental. They had done a few in the past, but no more.

As we all know, some fsdo’s are willing to do the airworthiness inspections. I have heard the same regarding consideration of experimental hours of experience
toward the A&P. Not in Baltimore.

In addition, they require a log book to substantiate your experience on certificated aircraft. I was told not to show up without it.
 
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Several years ago, I attended a forum at Oshkosh on this topic. The bottom lines were:
1. Yes, your time spent building your plane counts toward your AME rating.
2. All that time spent must be heavily documented in the form of a builder's log book, photos, receipts, inspection reports, etc. This is a case where it didn't happen if it ain't written down. Bring a large box of evidence to prove your case.

Not covered in the forum were the differences in how FSDOs address this matter. It appears the "S" may be different at every FSDO.
 
The Actual Rules....

Yes, we all know that different FSDO's interpret things differently, and that has always been the case - probably always will be. However, while it is occasionally due to malice, it is often due simply to the fact that a new inspector simply isn't familiar with the Byzantine and myriad rules that govern the huge number of tasks they are expected to be able to perform. So help them out!

No you have to do this politely, and pick the right inspector - go to some FSDO-sponsored Wings events, and see which inspectors liek to go out and talk with GA types - those are the ones you want to approach.

Do your homework. Go to:

http://fsims.faa.gov/PICResults.aspx?mode=EBookContents&restricttocategory=all~menu

....or if that link doesn't work, search for FAA Order 8900.1. Navigate to Volume 5, Chapter 5, and scroll to paragraph 5-1134....and start reading. You'll find that they are looking for you to prove 30 months of equivalent experience, which can be done in many different ways. Keep reading - there are a lot of details.

Once you have done this, prepare your case for the inspector (that you have chosen), citing the Order, so that they can simply check your work. If you meet those requirements, a good inspector will smile and shake your hand - you've done the work to prove he's within his bounds. If you have to squint and hold your mouth just right in order to show that you meet the requirements, then you might not be there, and you can expect a different response.

Be polite, by the book, and willing to work with the Inspector, and you can get a sign-off. THEN...the study (for the tests) begins!
 
I just got laid off after 15 years in the oilfield. I am ready to to get my 8610-2 application reviewed but the FSDO in Houston is not accepting appointments until this pandemic is over. 30-60 days. I?ve got my DD-214 showing my airframe schools, a letter of recommendation from an A&P and I?m presenting the letter from Mel that I was going to use to get my repairman certificate for good measure.

I was just thinking about your situation and was going to let people here know in case someone had a contact that could get your permission. Hopefully someone here knows an FAA Inspector with a heart that can help you.
 
No inspector shopping in Ballmer. You will be dealing with the airworthiness inspector that handles your area. I don?t think it?s really any different in Philadelphia.
 
experience

It doesn't look good if your trying to use EAB building time toward the required experience needed to qualify for the A&P. The note at the end is pretty clear.

This is straight from the rules:

C. Presenting Documented Evidence. Applicants who only present evidence in the form of documented practical experience in maintaining airframes and/or powerplants must go through a FSDO/International Field Office (IFO) to receive authorization to test. Applicants must present at least 18 months of practical experience appropriate to the rating requested. For a Mechanic Certificate with both ratings, the requirement is 30 months of experience concurrently performing the duties appropriate to both ratings. If the applicant has not met the required 30 months concurrently performing the duties appropriate to both ratings, calculate each rating separately using the 18-month requirement for each. The practical experience must provide the applicant with basic knowledge of and skills in the procedures, practices, materials, tools, machine tools, and equipment used in aircraft construction, alteration, maintenance, and inspection. All applicants who apply based on experience only must have verifiable experience in 50 percent of the subject areas listed for the rating sought (refer to part 147 appendices B, C, and D) in order to be eligible. There is no expectation that an applicant be highly proficient in overhauls, major repairs, or major alterations in the minimum 18/30 months of experience. Types of practical experience that may be evaluated are (see evaluating procedures in subparagraph 5-1134D):

1) Practical experience gained on U.S.-registered aircraft.

2) Practical experience gained while serving in a U.S. Military aviation maintenance occupation. Military experience/records may be evaluated for authorization to take the mechanic knowledge test based on documented experience and Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) code, Air Force Specialty Code (AFSC), or Navy Enlisted Code (NEC), as authorized in ? 65.77. See Figure 5-135, Military Occupational Specialty Codes, for FAA-accepted military codes.

3) Practical experience gained in foreign-registered civilian and military aircraft.

4) Practical experience gained from a combination of all of the above to meet the 18/30-month experience requirement.

NOTE: Manufacturing of any type of aircraft, including amateur-built experimental, does not count towards practical experience. However, practical experience gained on amateur-built aircraft after the aircraft has received an Airworthiness Certificate may count.
 
I tried to get a reduction in the airframe required experience due to my RV-7 build. I was politely told no by the FSDO. An explanation was offered that my build log was MY documentation for an AW certificate without third party verification. When you work 30 months to get your A&P experience requirements met the supervising A&P or IA documents what you have done.

I ended up finishing the course.
 
I received my A&P license 2 years ago using experience from building an RV8 and RV10. Building hours can count for experience. I used my building logs which had date, work performed, and hours worked. EAA put out some guidance a few years back with the details, just google it. The first person at my FSDO said no, but to his credit asked around his office and another person signed me off who was more familiar with experimentals.

Same issue with the practical. Examiner said I was not qualified to take the test. After additional discussion with that FSDO (different than the first) and a conference call with EAA they grudgingly admitted I qualified.

So ultimately got both the A&P at the same time, though it was a lot of studying to get there. Would not have been possible without the King videos.

My advice, stay professional, know the regulations, have them in writing, and educate the FAA personnel as required. EAA is also a resource that can help.

Aaron
 
My advice, stay professional, know the regulations, have them in writing, and educate the FAA personnel as required. EAA is also a resource that can help.

Aaron

Great advice. Sadly the FAA isn't what it used to be. The majority of the experienced Inspectors are either retired or are now supervisors and won't talk to you unless you threaten to file a complaint against one of their subordinates in Washington. Then you have a lot of the current Inspectors that don't have the knowledge or experience and it seems they don't care to get it. They're in a government job that's extremely hard to get fired from no matter how incompetent you are and their unions are super powerful. :(:(

The knowledgeable guys know it's way more financially rewarding $$$$ to stay outside of the FAA as a DAR, DER, DPE, or DME, or just stay completely retired and enjoy life flying for fun.
 
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The knowledgeable guys know it's way more financially rewarding $$$$ to stay outside of the FAA as a DAR, DER, DPE, or DME, or just stay completely retired and enjoy life flying for fun.

Maybe things have changed. In 2011 my DAR told me I was one of his last clients - he was taking a job with the FSDO. He expected the take home pay would be about the same, but with much better fringe benefits (health, retirement).
 
I guess if you don't have a lot of work in your area it might be better to go work with the FAA but then again that was back in 2011. Have you seen what they're charging now? A simple Private Pilot checkride is up to $600 in some areas and it's hard to schedule them because the DPEs are busy. Just a few tests a week pays the same as a full time job without the hassles. How much does a DAR inspection for an airworthiness certificate cost today?
 
I received my A&P license 2 years ago using experience from building an RV8 and RV10. Building hours can count for experience. I used my building logs which had date, work performed, and hours worked. EAA put out some guidance a few years back with the details, just google it. The first person at my FSDO said no, but to his credit asked around his office and another person signed me off who was more familiar with experimentals.

Same issue with the practical. Examiner said I was not qualified to take the test. After additional discussion with that FSDO (different than the first) and a conference call with EAA they grudgingly admitted I qualified.

So ultimately got both the A&P at the same time, though it was a lot of studying to get there. Would not have been possible without the King videos.

My advice, stay professional, know the regulations, have them in writing, and educate the FAA personnel as required. EAA is also a resource that can help.

Aaron

Your experience and mine demonstrate what has been already said, it?s a FSDO by FSDO decision. It shouldn?t be but it is. Glad your?s worked out for you.
 
College school vs build experience for a&p

I?m reading this thread with interests because I?d like to obtain the A&P and IA license. Finished my RV and have 20 years of owner assisted experience on Cherokees. Engineer by trade.

Could you with experience taking college classes comment on that processes for getting A&P? Our local community college offers a two program but the course map looks to have a lot of fluff classes like basic math and reading blue prints. Has anyone worked with a college to complete their knowledge and experience to passing the A&P test? How did that go?

What did your path thru a college aircraft maintenance program look like?

Thanks
 
College program

I went to a Community College for my A&P. Their programs are approved by the FAA and at that time required 1800 class / lab hours with mandatory attendance. We clocked in and out each day, and if you were absent you had to make the time up. The course was six semesters, two each for General, Airframe and Powerplant. But that was the FAA requirement for their program to be recognized by the FAA. I believe that is true today but the A&P program is changing so it may be different.

I tried to get credit for the airframe portion of the A&P. The school's position was "If you can get the FSDO to agree to that congratulations. But that is outside of this program." As I mentioned in an earlier post, the FSDO did not accept my build as experience. A fellow student was a retired machinist and he was hoping for credit for the General requirements, the answer was no. So we both set through lectures on "this is a screwdriver." But to be fair, the programs are designed for someone that may have little experience working with tools. So there is a lot of very basic information included. In our class there were students who had never used tools.

But each FSDO decides on its own who and what meets the requirements. So you really need to have that discussion with your local FSDO.
 
I went to two years of all day classes and studied harder than I did in AF pilot training. As another stated, there are no excused absences. If you miss a day, you have to make it up. It's a very tough course (as it should be) but very rewarding when you finally get your tickets. After a lifetime of personal and professional flying, it was a bucket list item for me.
 
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A&P

In the 60's it was very common to get an A&P based on building EAB airplanes. In that era a lot of builders did all portions of built from scratch airplanes on their own. Now it can still be done if you find the right FAA Inspector.
 
I tried to get into the local community college program, but it was already full and they had cut back from day track and evening tracks last year, to just evenings this Spring. This Fall 2020 it looks like they have cancelled all of the classes due to non-remote learning requirements. The first semester classes are 50/50 lecture and lab, and there is no way to safely do the lab with the COVID situation. All of the other classes have these first classes as a prerequisite. Not sure now if the program will ever recover. The community college district here is under a lot of financial pressure to cut costs, so they aren't hiring any new instructors and there have been a couple of instructors who have retired in the last year.
If there was an online way to do this A&P, I'd be very interested.
 
the problem with giving credit for building a EAB is determining what was learned during construction. remember, the hrs need are to cover a large area of processes and methods.

powerplant: how much experience was gained during a build? did you buy a new engine from vans and hang it on the airframe? that would count for about nothing. did you rebuild your engine your shelf? if you did, did you do all the measuring and spec work or just send it out to aircraft specialties and get the 8130's from them. getting a powerplant rating allows you to work on turbine engines, you still need to get experience with that area.

Airframe: with the new kits available, did you ever have to determine rivet size, rivet spacing, and proper edge spacing? did you even have a copy of 43.13?

this is the reason that the FAA is trying to get away from issuing authorization to test base on experience, and pushing for everybody to attend a approved training program. they do not want to have to determine if an applicant has all the experience.

when I got mine 25 years ago it was alot easier to get signed off by experience. in reality, a lot of guys back then got the ticket that really were not qualified to have it.

I personally think that if you have a well documented build, you should get some credit, but it really does not cover a lot of the areas that you need experience in.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
 
It doesn't look good if your trying to use EAB building time toward the required experience needed to qualify for the A&P. The note at the end is pretty clear...

NOTE: Manufacturing of any type of aircraft, including amateur-built experimental, does not count towards practical experience. However, practical experience gained on amateur-built aircraft after the aircraft has received an Airworthiness Certificate may count.

+1

Apparently this note is a new addition to 8900.1 - this is not regulatory but pretty much tells the inspector how to do their job so EAB build time is not allowed. Crazy considering washing and airplane under supervision of a A&P would be.

I decided to take do the LSRM route and self-supervise my 30 months experience...MOSAIC proposed rules will hopefully allow EAB condition inspections by LSRMs also.
 
I went to A&P school and got my license then down the road built my RV-6A (like others here). I can say that the RV build certainly made me a better sheet metal guy and overall mechanic than I was before. However, there are a number of sheet metal skils not required to build and RV, but learned at school, such as precise layout, calculating bend allowances, using a shear or brake, forming. Other aircraft stuff; safety a turnbuckle, tension a cable.......

Same for powerplant. The RV build was not nearly as in-depth as A&P school for powerplant.

Now of course, none of this applies to everyone, many assemble their own engine, do lots of custom work, or have other experience. But for the average RV builder, it is unlikely they would pass the written or O&P exam without a whole lot of study. Turbine engines, radials (not sure if they still teach that), engine tuning, tube and fabric, topics not covered when building an RV. And that is assuming you built a nice RV (we have all seen scary ones).

So if you are interested in getting your A&P, unless you have other experience, go to a proper A&P school. You will be better for it in the end.
 
My wife and i are in a&p school right now and to be honest I already know most of what we have learned in our classes over the last year. I definitely learned about turbines as i had no knowledge of those. But to be honest some of these a&p schools don't teach as much as what someone would learn compared to working on aircraft for a few years part time. I have had to end up helping teach some of our classes as the a&ps teaching the classes have no knowledge other than airliners.
 
A&P

in the day a typical homebuilt was welded steel tube and wood with fabric covering. Today only a very small minority of A&P's can perform any oof those skills.
 
After spending 3 years working at a local maintenance shop, taking the 3 written exams locally, I enrolled in a 1 week practical prep course at Baker?s in Tennessee. All of my classmates were much younger and most of them had just completed a two year course at various locations of a nationwide A&P school. It was absolutely astounding to me how unprepared these kids were. They had each paid around 40K for their two years of ?education? and many were in debt for it. The course started on Monday and by Wednesday they had started sending students to the examiners. One by one these applicants were failing, some miserably. Upon failing the test, Bakers will retrain the student in specific areas until they pass, if they are willing to continue. Some of these students felt that they were so unprepared for the practical test, they gave up and went home. My test was scheduled on Saturday morning and I was told that I was the first of that class to make it through. A young Canadian kid also made it through on Sunday. The other twelve applicants failed. I do know of two guys that did stay and continue until they passed.
While working at Cecil Aero, the shop that I served my apprenticeship at, one of the young fellers I worked with named Bear, was attending one of the same A&P Schools in Philadelphia. He is a sharp young man and was encouraged by one of the instructors to quit and just go take his test. He felt that this school was a waste of his time and money and the instructor agreed with him. Bear had been working at this shop since he was 14, so he did have the required experience to qualify to take the tests.
I know I?ve rambled a bit on this, but all A&P schools are not created equally. Be careful, you can throw away a lot on money. If you would like to know the name of this nationwide chain of schools, send me a pm.
BTW, the examiners told me that they were going to contact the FAA regarding this school.
 
FWIW I have two good friends that are/were DMEs. Both have had attempts by FAA FSDO "investigators" probing them in various ways to see if either would pass applicants by paying extra.
 
I went to two years of all day classes and studied harder than I did in AF pilot training. As another stated, there are no excused absences. If you miss a day, you have to make it up. It's a very tough course (as it should be) but very rewarding when you finally get your tickets. After a lifetime of personal and professional flying, it was a bucket list item for me.

East Coast Aero Tech has a similar program in the Boston area. It?s 18 months full time, but during that time you complete the requirements for you A&P. Cost is around $36k from what I?m told. It?s also a bucket list item that I may do In retirement.
 
Experience

About 25 years ago I worked on my A&P under supervision of an experienced mechanic. I used the time my father and I built a small homebuilt plus the on job experience with the mechanic. No questions from anyone about the homebuilt time. If anything, that was a huge plus.

The FBO hired a couple school graduates and they were woefully unprepared for anything other than doing an oil change. I'm sure there are good schools, but as with most things in life, I'm a big believer in experience under an old master. Trying to get trained by spending a bunch of money in a puppy mill seems to do nothing but empty your wallet.
 
I just have to jump in and say that after I retired, I went to Greenville Tech in Greenville, SC. The school facility is world-class as are the instructors. I went there to learn (bucket list item) and studied harder than I did in USAF pilot training. It was a VERY challenging course and I passed the orals and writtens all on first try. The school would not authorize you to take the exams until you demonstrated three consecutive times that you could pass their practice exams with a score of 90 or above. Were there weak students?............yes, but it was usually caused by their lack of effort. The school offered all kind of retraining and help. Did they get some sort of pass?........absolutely not. Most of the non-serious ones simply quit coming.
 
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