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I am the world's worst airplane builder

s10sakota

s10sakota

Well Known Member
Seriously, I am. Look at this ****. These are the F-633 pieces that hold the control sticks. I was to measure 3/8" down and 3/4" in. I carefully measured, center punched, used three increasing larger drill bits to drill the final hole size of 3/16", and then once complete, I put a bolt in them to see how perfect they were!

Here's the results...



Seriously what the hell?? Do I suck that bad? I guess somewhere between trying to measure accurately, marking with a fine sharpy, and then center punching, I'm a full1/32" off.

I'm guessing this won't matter over the roughly foot-and-a-half that they span, but I HATE when my work comes out like this.

I just don't know what to do differently when I measure, mark, and punch to be more accurate.
 
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I feel your pain. Different parts require different "tricks" to solve these types of things if you want to make better parts. Of course it just means you will make even more creative errors along the way as well! ;)

In this case the solution I would use (after doing exactly the same thing you did most likely) is that you could have marked one part carefully and drilled as you did. Then clamped the two of them together and used the first part as a mirror image template to drill the second hole. Now you have them both the same. But like you I usually first mess things up, then think about how I should have done it! Of course that's the advantage of building a 2nd airplane. You have a nice database of experience to draw on the next time around!
 
Your skills are obviously similar to mine. The mistake you made here was not to match drill. That way you could have been sure that both holes were out by 1/32" :)
 
You are just learning the limitations of your tools and techniques . . .

The lesson answer is : drill guide

A drill press is thought to drill straight down. HA

It MAY start in the right position but not assured. If you really want a hole in a particular position, then mark it, start it and clamp a drill guide there until it is well started.

A drill will self align easily if trying to drill into an existing hole. Getting that alignment is just a matter of paying close attention. "Self alignment" means it deflects at the tip and drills a crooked hole.

A starter hole is not completely needed. A good dimple with a smaller bit greatly helps, but it is actually harder on the bits to drill less material.

Build and learn - keep going.

Oh- 135 deg drills are popular but can wander on first few revs. I put the bit down with pressure then start the drill press to ensure that it is in the dimple and does not skate.

Have fun! Keep learning!
 
Don't Feel Bad

One of the objectives of this exercise is education and that is what I keep telling myself. I took almost two months and many prototypes to figure out how to mount my control cables. I can't wait to build my second kit so I can feel marginally competent during the process. It ought to almost throw itself together now that I am such an expert...:p
 
I often reflect on the fact that it's really too bad I have sworn never to do this again. :)

As I recall I drilled one of them with a #30 bit, then clamped them together and match drilled the other one, then enlarged the holes. Then wondered why they were STILL not perfectly aligned. :shrug:

On my list of stuff to do when I get a chance is dismantling my drill press and tuning it up according to an article I downloaded. Runout is not a problem, but the bit will shift about 1/32" between the time you line it up perfectly on your punch mark, and the time it starts actually drilling the hole. There's a little slop in there that is VERY aggravating. If I can't fix that I'm going to replace the drill press. Like most of my tool and skill deficiencies, it was never really a problem until I started building an airplane.
 
Seeing...

New glasses...

Not joking...:)

Make sure you have, or get, good reading glasses that focus at the distance you use for measuring and drilling.

Sometimes stronger than usual glasses work better for close-up work - just don't walk around your workshop with them on and trip over your feet.

Add good lighting as a necessity too. Your 1/32 error is probably simply due to not being able to see your ruler and Sharpie marks precisely.
 
az_gila said:
New glasses...

Not joking...:)

Make sure you have, or get, good reading glasses that focus at the distance you use for measuring and drilling.

Sometimes stronger than usual glasses work better for close-up work - just don't walk around your workshop with them on and trip over your feet.

Add good lighting as a necessity too. Your 1/32 error is probably simply due to not being able to see your ruler and Sharpie marks precisely.
Click to expand...

Gil, you aren't kidding. I couldn't believe it a couple of years ago when I *finally* figured out that I couldn't see the weld puddle. Now I can hardly do anything in the shop without reaching for some readers. They are scattered about like candy.

Ahh, and lighting too! I still thank you weekly for the help with my shop lighting plan years ago. Not a shadow in sight.

Once upon a time in a land far, far away, I started a little paper on "how to drill a hole". By about chapter three I decided that those that need this info certainly wouldn't want to read such drivel.

Mark, you'll do just fine!
 
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BillL-I Googled drill guides and it seems that they are for using a hand held drill. Is there a drill guide that is to be used with a drill press? I drilled both of these parts in the drill press, so the holes are straight, but they never seem to be EXACTLY where I want them!

My building brain needs a break for the night, so...I figured it would be fun to draw instead...

 
Stop using a sharpie for things that need to be precise. The line width, plus unpredictable offset from measuring stick (rule) makes even the sharpest sharpie marks inaccurate. Need a very sharp pencil point (the kind you put in that thing with a crank, not the mechanical type.

I use 5X magnifier if trying to get something accurately positioned. However, in this case match drilling would have been much better.

Thats why we call this a learning experience. :D
 
Art stores (Michael's, etc.) have pens with tips finer than the fine-point Sharpies, but I can't really see the need for going much finer. At this point, it becomes an exercise in just how precisely you can position the drill bit to get the hole started.

My biggest problem is that I have the reverse Midas touch; whenever I grab a fine-point Sharpie (one of a dozen or so on the workbench) it instantly runs out of ink. Not to be denied, I draw it across the ruler, oh, six or seven more times and it continues to leave the dreaded invisible line. :eek: Of course, the scene replays with the second one I find. And then I can't find any of the remaining pens. Off to the store for more Sharpies!!

The quality of the drill bit is also a huge factor. The cheaper ones wander and flex to the side a little, yielding a hole that's just a little bit off.
 
I hate it when my sharpie ink wicks out of my pen onto the work. Instead of leaving a nice sharp blue line I wind up with what looks like a line of Rorschach blots on a string. Sometimes cleaning with acetone will fix it, sometimes getting a new pen will. Anyone else have this?
 
Accurate measurements are only as good as accurate marks.

Gil is right. Start with good lighting right above your work. The extra light improves contrast, but also constricts the pupil to give you a better depth of focus. Tell your eye doctor who can advise you on glasses specifically for the task.

All that said, I possess more than my fair share of scrap aluminum.
 
Die makers trick, cover the entire area with sharpie ink then use micron calipers to "scratch" very lightly super fine and accurate lines in the ink. Measure from two different control points and make an intersecting "X". Punch that spot and drill. The "scratches" are only deep enough to remove ink, not Mark the aluminum. If you do scratch the aluminum, is will easily polish out.
 
Awesome Drawing!

Mark,
Paige Hoffart sent me a text when he recognized my plane in your drawing.
That is really cool! The details are amazing.

Can I have your permission to print and frame it? Please?

Thanks,
Mark Burns

Here's the real thing with Paige on my wing ;-)

P1120353AA.jpg



s10sakota said:
BillL-I Googled drill guides and it seems that they are for using a hand held drill. Is there a drill guide that is to be used with a drill press? I drilled both of these parts in the drill press, so the holes are straight, but they never seem to be EXACTLY where I want them!

My building brain needs a break for the night, so...I figured it would be fun to draw instead...

Click to expand...
 
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s10sakota said:
BillL-I Googled drill guides and it seems that they are for using a hand held drill. Is there a drill guide that is to be used with a drill press? I drilled both of these parts in the drill press, so the holes are straight, but they never seem to be EXACTLY where I want them!

My building brain needs a break for the night, so...I figured it would be fun to draw instead...

Click to expand...

WOW, Drilling is easy, drawing is HARD.

Actually, the drill guides I use literally do nothing but hold the drill in place. I just take some steel scrap, at least 1/4 in thick, and drill a slightly undersize hole. Then just clamp it to the piece being drilled with vice grips (or vice) and drill. The wander occurs mostly in pieces thin relative to the drill diameter. Your pieces probably were just a tolerance or repeatability issue. A small bit 1/8" will be easier to keep on the center punch to start, then after a good dimple is there, then go to the large size. No need to sneak up on it.

In this case, Gil may be on to the root cause. I use a headband magnifier and bright lights in the shop. Paul K's marker trick is good too. To keep the bit from walking off, start the drill press with some pressure in the punched dimple.

Now, can you teach us how to draw like that?
 
Paul K said:
Die makers trick, cover the entire area with sharpie ink then use micron calipers to "scratch" very lightly super fine and accurate lines in the ink. Measure from two different control points and make an intersecting "X". Punch that spot and drill.
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I've tried that. I need a better punch or something. I'll carefully measure, mark, get it right down to the gnat's patoot, then put a nice punch just off center. Bleh. Got to stop trying to use that POS spring loaded punch for anything, or grind a much better taper on it.
 
rgmwa said:
It's called experience. It's what allows you to recognise the same mistake when you make it again. :D
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And learn and press on.

Building an airplane is an education process. Don't stay away very long or the project will never fly. If this mistake causes sleep lose order 2 new pieces and do it again. In the long run it won't matter but you must get on with it.
 
sight and light is so true. i am very near sighted so when i take off my glasses i can get so close to the work i can almost see the cracks in a grain of sand! big plus doing exact work. ALSO, a few years ago i started carrying a little [very bright] flashlight in my pocket. use it all the time. even for something as simple as looking at the fuel valve on my motorcycle......which way is reserve? i pull the light out of my pocket 50 times more than my pocket knife .
and yea, with my super close up uncorrected vision i use safety glasses when needed
 
DaleB said:
I've tried that. I need a better punch or something. I'll carefully measure, mark, get it right down to the gnat's patoot, then put a nice punch just off center. Bleh. Got to stop trying to use that POS spring loaded punch for anything, or grind a much better taper on it.
Click to expand...

I didn't like the quality of center punches I had either. They seem to wear out too soon or were just poor quality. Finally I broke down and bought the one shown below. It IS pricey for what it is but I use it all the time and it's great! It's also adjustable which is nice.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DBVNPZW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 
DaleB said:
I've tried that. I need a better punch or something. I'll carefully measure, mark, get it right down to the gnat's patoot, then put a nice punch just off center. Bleh. Got to stop trying to use that POS spring loaded punch for anything, or grind a much better taper on it.
Click to expand...

If you are "just a bit off center" you can angle the punch and move the mark towards the correct spot with a second "pop". Then turn up the force a bit and make a final mark with the punch held vertically.

Works with my cheap General spring punch...

http://www.homedepot.com/p/General-Tools-Hardened-Steel-Center-Punch-89/202025674#specifications

Not a true fix, but it will move the bad mark towards the correct location, reducing your error.
 
Don't know how many times I have measured, marked & centre punched carefully only to find the pilot hole off a little, got the round file out, filed the hole to the correct location and final drilled to full size.
 
Champ said:
Don't know how many times I have measured, marked & centre punched carefully only to find the pilot hole off a little, got the round file out, filed the hole to the correct location and final drilled to full size.
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Yes, pilot holes are your friend! Just did that on a bracket for the flap motor.
 
Your not the worst airplane builder. Your average just like the rest of us. The fact that you even recognize it moves you out of the "worst" category automatically.
As Ken Scott told me, who was my next door hangar neighbor early in my build, "your building an airplane, not a watch...."
 
JonJay said:
building an airplane, not a watch....
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I dunno about that. Every time I look in the garage I know it's time to build, and when it's done whenever I see it I'll know it's time to go fly. How can it not be a watch? :D
 
scard said:
Gil, Now I can hardly do anything in the shop without reaching for some readers. They are scattered about like candy.
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If I may make a suggestion: Try a pair of these: https://www.clicgoggles.com/index.html , They stay on your head when you bend over and they are always around your neck when you need them. I had someone give me a pair as a gift. I no longer have to have them laying around like candy. They are wonderful! And last but not least, Dudley had a pair on in the movie Wild Hogs. :p
 
BenNabors said:
If I may make a suggestion: Try a pair of these: https://www.clicgoggles.com/index.html , They stay on your head when you bend over and they are always around your neck when you need them. I had someone give me a pair as a gift. I no longer have to have them laying around like candy. They are wonderful! And last but not least, Dudley had a pair on in the movie Wild Hogs. :p
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Holy moly. If I'd had any idea those were that cheap I'd have a pair already. I just found my next pair of reading glasses, thanks for that link. I qualify to wear them, I even have a Harley! :)
 
BenNabors said:
If I may make a suggestion: Try a pair of these: https://www.clicgoggles.com/index.html , They stay on your head when you bend over and they are always around your neck when you need them. I had someone give me a pair as a gift. I no longer have to have them laying around like candy. They are wonderful! And last but not least, Dudley had a pair on in the movie Wild Hogs. :p
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And, I bet they are very effective as birth control...especially the goggle version! :D
 
..this forum now age restricted.....

To people over 50???? :)

...now if I could just find me summadem Opti-Grabs, that would be puuuuurrrrfect!

BenNabors said:
If I may make a suggestion: Try a pair of these: https://www.clicgoggles.com/index.html , They stay on your head when you bend over and they are always around your neck when you need them. I had someone give me a pair as a gift. I no longer have to have them laying around like candy. They are wonderful! And last but not least, Dudley had a pair on in the movie Wild Hogs. :p
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Perry;
According to this websight you've pointed us to?..these are the official glasses of the Moller "Skycar". I'm running out to buy a pair right now.:rolleyes:
 
Not to worry, we all bugger up some parts from time to time.

Here is a partial pile of dead parts I had laying around the shop, after I made my first flight.


(click to enlarge)

Just order replacements and build on.
 
Dead Parts

It might make an amusing thread by itself...everyone posting pics of their morgue parts. I've got enough, just that I'm not sure where I stashed 'em all - here and there.
 
I managed to scrap five HS ribs, so I gave them to my co-workers, and they put them on their tchotchke shelves in their offices. So there's a little bit of Van's everywhere at work!!
 
Just a builder, not worlds worst.

We ALL had moments like this! I did! But today, I had my first flight in N771MK , my rv7a. Do NOT give up. Refuse to! You will make it! Five years here and it finally flew flawlessly. My plane is perfect but it sure felt like it today. Keep at it!
Mike
 
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