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RV-10 aileron trim

RV10Rob

Well Known Member
Hi, all... where in the wing does the aileron trim servo mount in the -10? Also, I found the wiring diagrams on the Ray Allen site, but I don't see where is says the current each of the 5 wires should be able to handle--anyone have wire size recommendations?

I'm not installing the aileron trim, but do want to wire for it now, in case I change my mind after flying. Couldn't find anything in the archives.

Thanks...

-Rob
 
The servo mounts on the inboard wing inspection panel and connects to the aileron control tube via springs. Same (or very similar) servo to what is supplied for the elevator trim. There's an arm that moves left/right that the springs attach to. Other end of the springs attach to clips that are blind riveted to the aileron control tube.

Bob
RV-10 N442PM
 
Rob,
Wiring for aileron trim is the least of the problems. The trim motor mounts on the Inspection Plate door closest to the fuselage. It uses two rather large springs that are attached to the Aileron Push Tube about a foot from the motor on both sides. The only way I know to install it, after the wing is attached, is to take the wing back off. You have to put two attachment points for the springs on the Push Tube, which means pulling the Push Tube.
In short, make up your mind before you attach the wing.

John
 
Although I installed mine before installing the wing, I think it could be installed without too much pain with the wing on. You'll need the aileron push tube out to install the clips that the springs attach to. The push tube can be removed by unbolting from the bellcrank and root torque tube connections, then with the wingtip off, just slide it out.

The springs attach to the aileron push tube clips with the push tube in place - you'll either do that with the wing in a cradle (easier) or on your back with the wing in place.

The servo doesn't use much current and wires are very small - no larger than #24. Most folks don't use anything smaller than #22 in the airframe so it's a non-issue. Servo has the same 5 wires as the one used for the elevator: 2 that control the motor and 3 that are used for position sensing.

Bob
 
Just a push

I use my Aileron trim on every flight. I find the RV-10 sensitive to loading in the roll axis. Fuel burn, 1 pilot, 2 pilot all make a difference and fuel balancing alone would not solve the problem......I would put it in up front.
 
Like many things in life, if you dont do it know you will only end up doing it later and cursing yourself for not doing it earlier.

DB:cool:
 
My thought is that I can save cost/time/weight/complexity by not installing the aileron trim. I'm building this mostly for X-C, and I figure I'll have the A/P on most of the time. I do recognize that I may change my mind (which is why I'm wiring for it) but if it's not too difficult to do later, I think I'll wait.

Thanks, all...

-Rob
 
I just installed my aileron trim on my 10 and it only took a little over 4 hrs
to build the entire trim system and run the wires. The servo is your only extra
weight. The springs and hardware weigh very little. The wire probably weighs
as much as the hardware. I would put it in now.
 
RV10Rob

DO AS YOU ARE TOLD!!!

My thought is that I can save cost/time/weight/complexity by not installing the aileron trim. I'm building this mostly for X-C, and I figure I'll have the A/P on most of the time. I do recognize that I may change my mind (which is why I'm wiring for it) but if it's not too difficult to do later, I think I'll wait.

Now you have given us the ammo we need to shoot you again! :D

The poor old autopilot servo will be fighting the out of trim all day, and more so for X-C trips. If your flying was short 15-20 minute scenics or hops around the place maybe so, but you will regret it.

Fit them now....... or we will all be laughing our butts off at you later.

Your A/P will appreciate it too, and your pax will not wonder why the stick pulses all the time....... some might get too excited by it ;)

DB
 
Rv 10 aileron trim spring noise

Hi everyone !
I hate that noise when you move the aileron or the stick in ground.

Did anyone solve this ? Or maybe I have a construction issue ?
Thanks folks !

Rv 10
80 flying hours
Buenos Aires
Argentina
 
ALSO...

If you are using a garmin system, it has auto trim capability.

This requires that the servo drive wires are connected to the roll servo (2 wires).

The default location for the aileron trim is in the LEFT wing but the roll servo is in the right.

If you mount the aileron trim in the RIGHT wing, it simplifies running the wires to the roll servo for the auto trim function.

Mounting the aileron trim in the LEFT wing and using auto trim, you will need to run those wires from the LEFT wing trim servo to the RIGHT wing roll servo.

Just something to consider...
 
Rob,
Wiring for aileron trim is the least of the problems. The trim motor mounts on the Inspection Plate door closest to the fuselage. It uses two rather large springs that are attached to the Aileron Push Tube about a foot from the motor on both sides. The only way I know to install it, after the wing is attached, is to take the wing back off. You have to put two attachment points for the springs on the Push Tube, which means pulling the Push Tube.
In short, make up your mind before you attach the wing.

John

You do not have to remove the wings. Disconnect the both ends of the push road, remove the wing tip fairing and slide the rod out the end of the wing. A lot less work and time involved
 
URGENT :NO NOISE PLEASE

"Hi everyone !
I hate that noise when you move the aileron or the stick in ground.

Did anyone solve this ? Or maybe I have a construction issue ?
Thanks folks !"




I have now found 3 x RV-10's that have had the Aileron Trim springs rubbing on the Aileron pushrod tubes. The plans were changed to require the builder to inspect and confirm that there is no contact in 2016, however prior to that I guess builders just kept building.

The fix is simply to bend the Aileron Trim Motor arm ,forward, away from the Aileron pushrod approx 3/16".

If you have any noise, please inspect, as the springs will eventually wear through the pushrod with possible dire control issues !!

Photos from a 1000hr + RV-10,
zack3rTN8MU8fbGoqkORX6Mw4HCNX8bjLMd1aihJOf_DrHPAKiIRBvt8lQ7pWucMTRgvG7n12Ko9ip6UzdxzMEDMApnXqGH0UXAM_8HX4pqeLMrWDqpqXBTbuSihovBPNb2Cm1aJn8dElGZeh0DC1n_WX7LcLZ8EMiSYSoXA0wNlFZnxoiNhvJgdmAQTEiAr-kQP8aHutuK-an4EQ6_I-JtsmjL31DTbXQITo2701E5xg7JSx6EtbHWO_7Ji36ZUmy1oYpwduRvOkcnzF9iwZaBE6vFHpZm2gGMQMTdVmD75QjbePD7VhV_qFsYCr5vP8rJdUvw2cZdhu9EU-4zHq4lImnGABRIZzFOxCvZVAcNK6n-xhyFffN7ZnsXkLd4ch9jB9162YEWmrqUZ39UCSycwYf-AKM1W6N2aJPGx-HMsD1eN1zCaUcv02qIh3LDcbSrmTr0msr3LRSKg3YJeV4z4hMF-BU0cG-XwnduC-jVU141dsL8ou3mnWqyaBRHNuC1tQEqNN1XUrU046PVkB0mTPbY35CFp9RKfkX3cziRIr3jUk_D4YNKaO-h4SpgTLwWjzHV3v-WzPdjRdgnWDYYeoTi35O586_0qGseS36pkQ4vajcnksh0MvD89-NS8YFx-7RXk201bSkIAbPLO9W2aLqjJsJ2rRa4Rarv10svn0QuTeuS6jT6nc0lemlf-bSNYDaBZop69o0JFnJodINxzxA=w453-h603-no


MZ_GUdnd-H9bWJT7hPndngI0mU7WNCNM1tbJcLo8bvTBxwr9pSlyxeploT-wo3y5F7c2PS-6HUx_byfLXmWsetw0mwR13XPa2mzTvkUzwGTZpaDhPSuQwFZI3GCqglh_B9ta0nk1vyuPItATmHnoH5a6w8w9M4IiAekbG-MRQciSlEMhKOEH49vh9xyVmL7nXkem-6SJOaDWq0isOJiSZIKdZvj6_lMryIV1_GO8gXcScXMp23k8o7jVPGd9z2JFDIIroVAjsGbxqibUuvILLGEPEWbuCLrFzdCAD0NFnl1FKXm9tITOOYWwqe2b5N8UM3Ye5OvHGSMheGMDFa-ntmniXbxHI7PvjFciJ4sWn6DWdzCUxRQL2Y_dRE1d5aAk_PfjYPzKpewKK_CYnudevua5Tw2wtGyU5fRlHdPT425VC5aHcYfp18WeWGtZWiHRRDqMlxeL5r2t4UzRPVWEFe0YX5awXxAj1m0rm2xUl4x2ypxD4orrpGCunX8mYsdQTUedBc7ZJz-__EK4F16ioR8q0JTwJEVDjtMxQjg9U-AQCsei_OukkSMeg_5og8FjVfw7ftUcqOM1tkztQVFZScXerLzQ1aH_TSYMi8buFBzIvFWKRr-wEr2e_lNnAElFAWiRIVaw12uIfLBtuPm2kofS_TWJdi63V3DM2hBg2LWHoZjkzGEKlWkUprW6h5ORBt7rvJiY1a5EhMTHXbJ6PUgB3w=w804-h603-no
 
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aileron trim spring noise

"Hi everyone !
I hate that noise when you move the aileron or the stick in ground.

Did anyone solve this ? Or maybe I have a construction issue ?
Thanks folks !"




I have now found 3 x RV-10's that have had the Aileron Trim springs rubbing on the Aileron pushrod tubes. The plans were changed to require the builder to inspect and confirm that there is no contact in 2016, however prior to that I guess builders just kept building.

The fix is simply to bend the Aileron Trim Motor arm ,forward, away from the Aileron pushrod approx 3/16".

If you have any noise, please inspect, as the springs will eventually wear through the pushrod with possible dire control issues !!

Photos from a 1000hr + RV-10,
Thank you Ashley, very useful data !!
 
I've seen the same on another RV-10 before, as well. They replaced the pushrods. Definitely inspect and listen for any scraping.
 
Rv10 aileron trim

Guys,

I never liked the Rv10 aileron spring trim, so I took mine out and off completely. The plans trim system did not appear to be effective to me on my 10 in the air and additionally I didn't like the spring applying pressure to the stick or my leg after landing and taxiing. I purchased the 1" servo drive from Ray Allen, removed my left aileron, installed servo, attached trailing hinged trim tab (about 7" piano hinge) with horn/push rod to the Ray Allen motor installed in aileron. I love it.

I don't know how to post pictures, but I can send pictures if anyone would like to see a few. Send me a PM with your "regular" email address.

Kenny Gene
Wichita KS area aviator
Rv7a AWC 09-07 690 hours sold 11-11
Rv10 AWC 10-10 847 hours
 
Rob, if you want more details the installation instructions are on the thumb drive from Vans - OP-38. The springs connect to the aileron control tube 6" inboard and 6" outboard from the trim servo arm.
 
As a "belt & suspenders" option, I put some UHMW tape along the push-rod tube to provide some rub protection just in case the spring were to contact the tube.
 
If you are using a garmin system, it has auto trim capability.

Mounting the aileron trim in the LEFT wing and using auto trim, you will need to run those wires from the LEFT wing trim servo to the RIGHT wing roll servo.

Just something to consider...

Bob, in process of wiring roll A/P and trim motors now. Can you direct me to Garmin information regarding which 2 wires to run over to right wing and how to tie them in? I already have trim motor in left wing, so will need to run the 2 wires over to right wing.
 
Bob, in process of wiring roll A/P and trim motors now. Can you direct me to Garmin information regarding which 2 wires to run over to right wing and how to tie them in? I already have trim motor in left wing, so will need to run the 2 wires over to right wing.

There are four trim wires at the servo. Two are inbound and provide manual trim control signals to either the servo to pass along, or directly to the trim motor via relay when servo is powered down. The other two wires are the outbound and these two wires go to the trim motor, wherever it is located. You can find the details about pins in the Garmin manual.

Doesn't matter which wing the motor is in. Whatever wire pair is feeding the motor should be the same regardless of which wing it is installed in.

Larry
 
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Actually...

If you are using the Van?s aileron trim with the RAC trim servo, there are five wires. The two white wires are motor power; reversing the polarity reverses the motor. The other three wires are for position sensing, either via a RAC indicator or a position input on the g3x system.

If using the auto trim, the two white wires from the aileron trim servo need to go across to the garmin roll servo. The pin schematic is in the g3x install manual.
 
For posterity

A fellow -10 builder inquired this question (can you co-locate the trim servo with the A/P servo in the RIGHT wing) from Vans and got this in response:

With a little work on your end the trim system can easily be installed in the opposite wing. Since this is just adding a little pressure with springs in the control push rod the exact location is not critical. The RV-14 uses the same system in the right wing also.
 
servo

Not sure if "co locate" is the right term...

If you install the trim in the right wing using the same basic instructions as for the left wing, the trim servo will be located on an inspection panel inboard of the A/P roll servo thus requiring two short lengths of wire for motor leads between the A/P servo and the aileron trim servo. You will then have three wires from the aileron trim servo that will connect to you avionics (or trim position indicator) to indicate aileron trim position.
 
I have the aileron trim on our -10 and very seldom use it regardless of who is (or is not) sitting in the other seats of the plane or what fuel I have burned off. I generally fly 30 minutes each tank before switching to the other side so maybe my weight differential is less than how others fly? I would say that in contrast to others experiences I find very little use in the aileron trim. One thing I find extremely useful though is having the both ail and elev trim located on the top hat of the infinity grips...... now this is really nice as I use the elevator trim often.
 
I have the aileron trim on our -10 and very seldom use it regardless of who is (or is not) sitting in the other seats of the plane or what fuel I have burned off. I generally fly 30 minutes each tank before switching to the other side so maybe my weight differential is less than how others fly? I would say that in contrast to others experiences I find very little use in the aileron trim. One thing I find extremely useful though is having the both ail and elev trim located on the top hat of the infinity grips...... now this is really nice as I use the elevator trim often.

1600+ hrs on our -10 with no aileron trim. No regrets. Spent a lot of time working on wing incidence before drilling the rear spar bolt hole. Ended up with an ever so slight right wing heavy when evenly loaded so start burning from right tank for 1 hr, which makes it ever so slightly left wing heavy then switch back to left tank for 30 min. Tru trac servo never complains and when disconnecting A/P there is never a sudden roll tendency. I would do the same if building again.
 
I have the aileron trim on our -10 and very seldom use it regardless of who is (or is not) sitting in the other seats of the plane or what fuel I have burned off. I generally fly 30 minutes each tank before switching to the other side so maybe my weight differential is less than how others fly? I would say that in contrast to others experiences I find very little use in the aileron trim. One thing I find extremely useful though is having the both ail and elev trim located on the top hat of the infinity grips...... now this is really nice as I use the elevator trim often.

Ditto. Never use it. IMO the least value added addition/mod you can make to the 10.
 
Easy way to re-connect trim springs in flying plane?

At 1200 hours I?ve had my 2nd or 3rd opportunity to disconnect the aileron trim springs (this time for installation of extended range tanks).

I?m now at the dreaded step of reconnecting those very strong springs to the trim lever on the servo. Has anyone developed a technique or tool for doing this without excessive bleeding or losing a knuckle?
 
At 1200 hours I?ve had my 2nd or 3rd opportunity to disconnect the aileron trim springs (this time for installation of extended range tanks).

I?m now at the dreaded step of reconnecting those very strong springs to the trim lever on the servo. Has anyone developed a technique or tool for doing this without excessive bleeding or losing a knuckle?

I use one of those motorcycle spring puller gadgets - works pretty well and no bleeding.
 
I wish I had checked back and found out about this tool. Despite some Google searches, I didn?t run across the tool but ran across a lot of alternatives for those trampoline springs.

What I ended up doing was munching up a bunch of 1?x2?x1/4? wood chips. I removed one of the springs from the pushrod, took it to the bench, stretched it out on a wood working bench vise with some dowel pin stuck in the bench and the vise. Then I inserted the wood chips in between the spring coils. With the spring now extended about 2 to 2.5 times it?s length, I took it to the plane and with little effort was able to hook it up with very little force.

Thanks for the suggestions - I will buy the tool next time I?m faced with this. But the wood chips or coins in the spring coils works!
 
Plastic wedges

I am not to the point of installing my trim motor springs yet so maybe this does not apply. When I am installing heavy duty springs I find it very easy to slide in plastic wedges between the spring coils before mounting and then once installed pull the plastic wedges out one by one. Even the strongest of springs can be installed this way and easy especially in a tight space.
 
I just got my RV10 back from the electrician for a dash light installation.

There is grinding/rubbing noise in the right wing with aileron movement. Significantly reduced right roll/aileron trim and lost AP roll control. On the ground, with the AP on, the AP aileron servo makes clunking noise on roll (TruTrak) but could not move the ailerons.

I will pull the inspection plate to have a look but what do you gents think it is? I did not build this plane.
 
I just got my RV10 back from the electrician for a dash light installation.

There is grinding/rubbing noise in the right wing with aileron movement. Significantly reduced right roll/aileron trim and lost AP roll control. On the ground, with the AP on, the AP aileron servo makes clunking noise on roll (TruTrak) but could not move the ailerons.

I will pull the inspection plate to have a look but what do you gents think it is? I did not build this plane.

If the aileron trim spring is rubbing on the tube, you’d hear a scraping sound i imagine.
 
If the aileron trim spring is rubbing on the tube, you’d hear a scraping sound i imagine.

There was a report of exactly this, some time ago. This needs to be fixed - as I recall, the post stated that the steel spring had worn a hole in the push tube.
 
I just got my RV10 back from the electrician for a dash light installation.

There is grinding/rubbing noise in the right wing with aileron movement. Significantly reduced right roll/aileron trim and lost AP roll control. On the ground, with the AP on, the AP aileron servo makes clunking noise on roll (TruTrak) but could not move the ailerons.

I will pull the inspection plate to have a look but what do you gents think it is? I did not build this plane.

I too heard a scraping noise near my left aileron. In our case it was the W-1018 Bellcrank to Aileron Pushrod rubbing the W-1007 Rear Spar. Somehow it got shifted every so slightly so that it would rub. I moved the washers around on the A-1007-L Inboard Attach Bracket where the Rod End meets it. I also took the pushrod out and re-primed it as the primer had a scratch. In case you are unaware Vans sells a USB thumb drive with the construction plans and drawings. If the original builder gave you the printed plan set they are nice to have but the search function on the digital copy is really nice.
 
Thanks gents. I'll check in a few days. It happened immediately after the pfd and mfd were removed for some wiring and I wonder if the AP aileron servo wiring is pinched also.
 
Interestingly the noise went away when I checked yesterday. Pulled the 3 wing inspection panels out any way. My aileron trim is not on the right wing, just the Trutrak servo. The noise must have come from this device but is no longer there. While I was under wing, I sprayed some LPS lubricant into the spherical joints all moving linkages.

Turned everything on and ground tested it without any problem again. Hope to fly test when the weather is a bit better.

Thanks again gents.
 
aileron trim

I have just ordered the QB wing kit and would like to know if I need aileron trim if I am installing a garmin auto pilot system? It sounds like it may be redundant.
 
I have just ordered the QB wing kit and would like to know if I need aileron trim if I am installing a garmin auto pilot system? It sounds like it may be redundant.


I installed it, long ways from flying. I don't believe they are redundant, with the autopilot off it won't have any pressure to trim with.
 
I have a -10, no aileron trim.
When I hand fly in vfr, I don’t miss it.
When the TrioPro flies, I don’t need it.
When I hand fly in actual IMC, I wish I had it.
So if I were building again, I’d install it. But so far I haven’t retro-fitted it.
 
Aileron Pushrod Bearing Wear from Aileron Trim

The DAR who inspected my RV10 this Saturday (received special airworthiness cert!) said the design of the Aileron Trim Arm (W-1033C) on the Ray Allen Servo puts a rotational load on the Aileron Pushrod (W-1017) which will lead to Rod End Bearing Wear (MD3614M).
He said that the Aileron Trim Arm should be shorter (with a resultant reduction in trim length) or the Aileron Trim Spring Brackets (W-1017B) should be taller.
The way it is now, the springs rotate the Pushrod forward and it doesn't rotate freely
Has anyone experienced issues with wear or shortened the Trim Arm connected to the Ray Allen Servo? The way it is now, the end of the springs are slightly above the Aileron Pushrod so don't have to worry about any wear/scraping but am concerned about the stress on the rod end bearings.
 
The DAR who inspected my RV10 this Saturday (received special airworthiness cert!) said the design of the Aileron Trim Arm (W-1033C) on the Ray Allen Servo puts a rotational load on the Aileron Pushrod (W-1017) which will lead to Rod End Bearing Wear (MD3614M).
He said that the Aileron Trim Arm should be shorter (with a resultant reduction in trim length) or the Aileron Trim Spring Brackets (W-1017B) should be taller.
The way it is now, the springs rotate the Pushrod forward and it doesn't rotate freely
Has anyone experienced issues with wear or shortened the Trim Arm connected to the Ray Allen Servo? The way it is now, the end of the springs are slightly above the Aileron Pushrod so don't have to worry about any wear/scraping but am concerned about the stress on the rod end bearings.

I suggest this is not an aileron trim problem, this is an aileron trim install problem.

During installation you tighten the rod end bearings when they are in a neutral position - do so after you have the ailerons trim installed. For the springs to aileron push tube attachment, it is not hard to get the springs so they do not rub on the push tube. Just take your time.

Carl
 
Thanks Carl. I'll give that a try. Was more concerned about the "torqueing" of the tube than the side to side rubbing but will do in the order suggested.
 
The DAR who inspected my RV10 this Saturday (received special airworthiness cert!) said the design of the Aileron Trim Arm (W-1033C) on the Ray Allen Servo puts a rotational load on the Aileron Pushrod (W-1017) which will lead to Rod End Bearing Wear (MD3614M).
He said that the Aileron Trim Arm should be shorter (with a resultant reduction in trim length) or the Aileron Trim Spring Brackets (W-1017B) should be taller.
The way it is now, the springs rotate the Pushrod forward and it doesn't rotate freely
Has anyone experienced issues with wear or shortened the Trim Arm connected to the Ray Allen Servo? The way it is now, the end of the springs are slightly above the Aileron Pushrod so don't have to worry about any wear/scraping but am concerned about the stress on the rod end bearings.

I don't buy that. Don't see how the trim system puts more load on the heim bearing than pilot induced forces during flying. Trim forces are pretty light compared to forces induced via the control stick, which has WAY more leverage (24' vs 1.5"). The bearings are quite strong. I have similar heim bearings, albeit larger, that hold my suspension geometry in place and take most if not ALL suspension load in a cornering maneuver on a 2400 lb cobra kit car. I have all confidence that the little RA servo and it's tiny plastic gears cannot put excessive loads om my steel heim bearings. Also confident in the Vans Engineers that they didn't overlook this and trust them more than a DAR. This is a critical safety of flight issue and there is little evidence that the Vans Engineers are anything but diligent and conservative in this area.

While I haven't looked at the specs, I suspect that the Heims will take a significant radial load, well beyond what a light spring can induce. If your control arm is not rotating freely in the radial axis, I suggest you have a geometry problem at the control stick interfaces. It takes a bit of trial and error to get full range of motion there, by adjusting the angle of the heim until it doesn't bind throughout the stick's full range of travel.

Larry
 
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I ended up cutting the trim arm by 3/4" and drilling new holes. The springs now run parallel across the pushrod and there is rotational play in the pushrod. Was not able to get any rotational play with the pushrod when the trim arm rose above the pushrod. And, easier to get the access panel back in place - before it took quite a push as the springs needed to expand
 
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