Question for RV-8 Drivers

In my quest to find he right RV to purchase I am looking at a RV-8. Initially I was looking at 7's and 6's. A person who's opinion I respect suggested that the RV-8 is not a good choice for a first time taildragger pilot and can be handful with a person in the back seat. He stated its fine solo but not that good dual. This seems to be backed up a bit by the fact that I just became aware of two RV-8 damaged on landing in loss of control incidents. In both cases they had a large person in the back seat. Any comments or thoughts on this? With proper training would a RV-8 be fine for a high time pilot with no taildragger time and a low time new pilot also with no taildragger time. This assumes good judgement and picking nice days while initially building time.

Thanks!
George

Talk to 8 pilots first.

I've had #280 (said he was #260) in back of my 8, although stick sensitivity does increase, I did not find it difficult to land. I did keep the approach speed a little higher, but would do it again without question. I have angle valve engine with CS prop so am in the forward area of the CG. The 8 is a very easy TD to control, I would not let someone drive me away from it without investigating further. I'm a little bias, but if I build another RV it will be an 8.

CG?

George,

I hope I don't talk down to you, but you do say you are new to taildraggers. As the CG shifts aft, in any tailwheel airplane, in addition to reduced elevator forces there is a different feel in directional control. It is like there is more inertia involved in directional deviations. I remember talking to a pilot who flew DC-3s mentioning about how you had to be pretty careful when the aft baggage compartment was full.

I don't own an RV-8 but I know it is a pussycat as a tailwheel airplane and it has a big advantage in that you can control the CG more easily than in other RV aircraft, because of the forward luggage compartment.

There is nothing tricky about an RV-8 compared to other tailwheel airplanes.

8's are just fine

I had ten hours of taildragger time and about 300 total time when I did the first flight on my 8. First landing was not the best but acceptable. 250 hours later I have had a 230 pounder in the back with no issues. My wife absolutely loves having her own space. Wouldn't worry to much about the handling of an 8.

Brad

CG and the backseat

sailvi767 said:

A person who's opinion I respect suggested that the RV-8 is not a good choice for a first time taildragger pilot and can be handful with a person in the back seat. He stated its fine solo but not that good dual. This seems to be backed up a bit by the fact that I just became aware of two RV-8 damaged on landing in loss of control incidents. In both cases they had a large person in the back seat.

Click to expand...

There are a couple of effects from aft CG in an RV8. In my experience having a backseater makes it somewhat easier to make a good touchdown due to a bit more sensitivity in pitch. Having said that, increasing the weight behind the main gear (aft CG) will make the directional control a bit more sensitive on roll out. Both of these changes are very subtle, the '8' is a very honest taildragger. With a little practice and attention to how the aircraft is loaded a passenger in the back is a non-issue.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

I'm still a very green RV taildragger pilot (under 50 hours in the RV-8, under 100 taildragger hours total) and have had no problems with a 200 to 250 lb passenger in the back seat. For me, maintaining directional control after touchdown is easier in the RV-8 than it is in other taildraggers I've got any significant time in such as the Supercub, Citabria, and yes.... even the RV-4.

There... I've said it. The RV-8 is easier to land than the RV-4.

My experience in the -8 is that directionally, the stability doesn't change noticeably with CG. It is true in general that as you get the CG aft in taildraggers, directional stability suffers (as Larry said), but it is not significant tin the 08 in my experience. Pitch, however, is a different matte,r and you need to be aware that the stick forces get extremely light at aft CG's - and they get lighter as you get slower. this is the reason that I fly a faster approach with someone in the back seat, and (almost) always wheel land, with power, in that condition. With a constant speed prop, it is important to remember that with the power at idle, you are going to decelerate very rapidly, and if you come across the fence at a normal approach speed with the throttle all the way back, expect it to over-rotate as you flair, leading to a tail-first touchdown and a potential wild ride. It can feel like the stick is coming back on it's own as you flair, and the best response I have found is to add power and go around - or set up for a second landing if you have enough runway.

None of this is insurmountable - the RV-8 is a great flying airplane - it just takes a little awareness, raining, and practice so that you don't get surprised. I have flown many types of airplanes in my life, and every single one requires "pilot compensation" for one task or another. I have never flown the perfect airplane, one with zero quirks. I personally find the-8 easier to land reliably than I do the -6...but then I have a whole lot more hours in the -8 than I do in the -6...

Paul

George,

I purchased an RV-8 a little more than 2 years ago. At the time, I had logged about 850 hours with very little time in tail draggers. To prepare for the RV-8, I did a rather aggressive training program with two very experienced tail dragger instructors. I now have logged about 170 hours in the RV-8, and I am very pleased that I took on this adventure, it is a great airplane! With good instruction, and a commitment to training, you can learn to be safe in this airplane reasonably quick. However, I have always kept a healthy respect for the 8, it requires precision on landings. I feel that it has made me a better pilot.

Ron

I've not noticed much difference in runway stability with a passenger (I've carried people up to 230-240 pounds). As noted earlier the pitch forces do get lighter, which in my experience actually makes the landings a bit easier. I've not had the sort of problem Paul describes and find it easy to 3-point with a passenger. Could be related to different aircraft CGs? (mine is right at the forward limit when solo).

I had about 30 hrs tailwheel when I started and found the 8 to generally be easier to land than a Citabria.

A guy in an RV-4 lost control of his while landing a couple weeks ago, he had a female passenger in the back, not sure what happened. He ran off the runway and ended up in a ditch upside down, as far as I know nothing broke on the plane, he just plain lost rudder control, don't know if his feet were asleep or due to a passenger in the back, who knows. Both were not hurt, but the fire dept. had to cut them out of the plane.

I've ~400hrs / 800 landings in RV-8s, and when I started had about 3hrs TW time. I now also fly E300L / One Design, and did the TW conversion on a Cub. The RV is by far the easiest to land.

Whilst CG does make the RV-8 charateristics differ, I have never considered it a factor in directional control... it is all in pitch control, and if you are aiming for 3 pointers, easier with someone in the back. Wheelers easier solo.

Go through the NTSB accident database and search for RV-8 (and RV8). The ground loop accidents seem to usually cite weather, often "sudden large gust".

I am clearly biased, but I doubt the RV-8 is any harder to land than the 6/7, and maybe the better visibility in the 8 actually makes it a little easier?

Andy
RV-8 G-HILZ

Hi George,

Enjoyed talking with you yesterday. Thought I would add my opinion on the issue. I don't find directional control of the 8 to be any more difficult with a passenger in back. As many have stated, pitch sensitivity is increased, but this is easily controlled. I travel with a rough crowd (Team RV) and find that avoiding the "sissy wheel" jabs is just one of the benefits of flying a tailwheel.

I snuck up on the aft cg while in phase 1 testing by using sand bags. What I learned is that it is easy to sneak up on the aft cg, but if you go from flying solo to adding a biscuit boy in the back seat, you had better be prepared to adapt.
I ended up carrying a few extra knots into the flare and all was fine. There were no directional control issues unless I let the plane swerve on rollout at which point the plane required a more aggressive correction to stay on center line. (Polar Moment???)
The -8 is a kitten as far as taildraggers go...in my opinion, it is easier to land than a Cub.

Alan Carroll said:

I've not had the sort of problem Paul describes and find it easy to 3-point with a passenger. Could be related to different aircraft CGs? (mine is right at the forward limit when solo).

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My opinion is yes - as was mentioned earlier in this threadby someone else with the angle-valve engine, if you are at the forward CG when solo, then you won't be anywhere near as far aft with a passenger.

taflores said:

A guy in an RV-4 lost control of his while landing a couple weeks ago, he had a female passenger in the back, not sure what happened. He ran off the runway and ended up in a ditch upside down, as far as I know nothing broke on the plane, he just plain lost rudder control, don't know if his feet were asleep or due to a passenger in the back, who knows. Both were not hurt, but the fire dept. had to cut them out of the plane.

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Not really relevent to this discussion in my opinion, since -4's and -8's are totally different airframes....and the OP is asking about -8's.

sailvi767 said:

In my quest to find he right RV to purchase I am looking at a RV-8. Initially I was looking at 7's and 6's. A person who's opinion I respect suggested that the RV-8 is not a good choice for a first time taildragger pilot and can be handful with a person in the back seat. He stated its fine solo but not that good dual. This seems to be backed up a bit by the fact that I just became aware of two RV-8 damaged on landing in loss of control incidents. In both cases they had a large person in the back seat. Any comments or thoughts on this? With proper training would a RV-8 be fine for a high time pilot with no taildragger time and a low time new pilot also with no taildragger time. This assumes good judgement and picking nice days while initially building time.

Thanks!
George

Click to expand...

George, I'll throw in my two cents. When I made my maiden flight in Smokey, I had around 600 hours TT, the last flight nearly 11 years prior, and most in a Grumman Yankee. I got my medical out of the way, got my BFR and tailwheel endorsement in 4 hours of dual in a Cessna 140, then sat in the RV going over systems while making engine noises and getting comfortable.

I've written about my personal demons with the first few flights, but as much as I wanted to fear the little wheel in the back, it's just never been an issue. I now have 125 hours and a bunch of landings and it's never scared me.

So, if the RV-8 isn't the PERFECT first tailwheel plane to fly, I don't know what is -- quick, responsive, forgiving and plenty of power. Don't let it scare you.

why do people say drivers? is this some military thing?

sailvi767 said:

...With proper training would a RV-8 be fine for a high time pilot with no taildragger time and a low time new pilot also with no taildragger time...

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Among taildraggers, the RV-8 is a piece of cake. That said, there are some who are going to have trouble flying ANY tailwheel airplane. I'd say if you can earn a T/W endorsement, the -8 will not present you with any difficulty.

N8RV said:

So, if the RV-8 isn't the PERFECT first tailwheel plane to fly, I don't know what is -- quick, responsive, forgiving and plenty of power. Don't let it scare you.

Click to expand...

Don, that post just made my week, if not my year. Thanks.

why do people say drivers? is this some military thing?

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I've always heard it in connection whether the aircraft has a stick or a yoke.

If it has a yoke, you "drive" it.
If it has a stick, you "fly" it.