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Disgruntled wanna be RV owner

Lemos

Active Member
I’ve sent two airplanes to pre buy and have rejected them both.
I’m considering an RV14 or an RV10 now but it just isn’t working out. There aren’t enough on the market, and those that are I guess are not good enough to buy.

Should I stay the course, or perhaps switch to certified (Debonair? A36?) Budget is $200,000.

Frustrated!!
 
Keep looking. Your in a price range that should get you what you want, especially for an RV-14. I am working with an airport buddy actively seeking an RV-9A. As I remind him, if its not exactly what he wants, if its close enough and priced right, it will give him some room $$ to make it how he wants. He is an AP/AI but not familiar with EXP aircraft. The market seems to be tight at this time with not a lot out there for sale, but that's a good thing in my book!
 
No one can give you that answer except yourself....but I can tell you that from what I understand, right now it is a seller’s market for both those models, and good ones frequently sell before they are advertised. You have to be in the right place at the right time to get them.

The question really is if you have the patience to seek them out?
 
The question really is if you have the patience to seek them out?
+1
I note that your profile says you joined VAF less than 6 months ago and at that time you wanted to build. It’s okay to change your mind. These are big decisions. Whether it’s build, buy an EAB, or a normally certified airplane, take your time, decide what your goals, acceptable and unacceptable things, really are, and what you’re willing or not willing to accept.
 
Too picky?

Mornin’....don’t shoot me just yet but you may be too picky.. I have an RV-10 to sell and was turned down because the ‘glass’ is old school...Dynon 100 and D120.

The airplane has been to the Bahamas three times and is fully sorted. There is a little leading edge paint damage but the airplane is not ‘shabby’.

Consider carefully the value for your dollar. The airplane you pass up may not be a creme puff but a great value. Sometimes we can be a bit ‘picky’.

Cheers,
 
I’ve sent two airplanes to pre buy and have rejected them both.
I’m considering an RV14 or an RV10 now but it just isn’t working out. There aren’t enough on the market, and those that are I guess are not good enough to buy.

Should I stay the course, or perhaps switch to certified (Debonair? A36?) Budget is $200,000.

Frustrated!!

Are you working with Donnie (Avengerboss) at KRNM? If there are good RVs in the area for sale he would be the guy that knows about them.

Having said that, you can't go wrong with a Bonanza. Although, things are much more restrictive in the Certificated Aircraft world. (I've owned both RV and Bonanza) IMO, mdl 36s are overpriced, I'd go with a mdl 33 or 35.

Good luck.
 
Mornin’....don’t shoot me just yet but you may be too picky.. I have an RV-10 to sell and was turned down because the ‘glass’ is old school...Dynon 100 and D120.

The airplane has been to the Bahamas three times and is fully sorted. There is a little leading edge paint damage but the airplane is not ‘shabby’.

Consider carefully the value for your dollar. The airplane you pass up may not be a creme puff but a great value. Sometimes we can be a bit ‘picky’.

Cheers,

A little more on what Pierre said.... Lots of pretty glass going in planes these days. But, I'll put overall workmanship ahead of those panels any day.
"All that glitters is not gold.":D
 
Considering that you are already disgruntled I would recommend a Bonanza.

Ever since I started my RV I have seen an ever increasing influx of none builders into the experimental market. As this is great for our resale values it does lead to a clash of expectations:

A builder looks at an RV he wants to buy as a canvas. If the frame is good the canvas has no holes he can paint on it whatever he wants for the cost of the paint.

A none builder looks at an RV as a painting. If he doesn't like what he sees he needs to hire a painter to paint an entirely new painting over the existing one. Usually that's too expensive so he walks away.

So if you look at things like glass panel. You can build yourself one for 20k$ or you can pay a certified and fully licensed shop to do the same panel for 60k$. So being a builder or a none builder makes a big difference in terms of how much you value the airplane with the older panel.

So coming back to your question. If you evaluate RVs with a builder mindset you will find one. If you look at it as a none builder it will be a long long search and you are better of with a Bonanza.

There is a reason a Cirrus which is comparable to an RV-10 cost twice that ... .

Oliver
 
It's up to you but when I was looking for an RV-8, I turned down several and several were sold before I could move on them. And the market wasn't quite as tight as it is now. So advertise that you are looking and keep on looking.

When it comes to glass panels, mine is old and was a little aged when I bought the plane but I considered that a plus. It works.

Panel tech improves by leaps and bounds. So if the plane had the latest and greatest back then, then by now it would be old.

This way when I get up the gumption to re-panel the plane I will have leapfrogged several generations.

I also wanted an airplane with fuel injection. Didn't find one, but if I really decide I want that I can switch to it.

But I have a good airplane where the basics are concerned.

Plus as a non-builder, I've made changes that make the plane "mine". And have more in the works.

To me what's most important is that the plane is structurally sound.

A panel change is no small task. But it's a lot easier than correcting a major structural issue.
 
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What did you reject them during pre buy for? That might answer the question of buying experimental vs. certified.
 
I hear that built -10s and -14s are hard to come by and command a premium, especially these days. OTOH, it took me about 3 weeks of searching before I was writing a check for my flying -9A back in September. The glass panel was nice, but 9 years old. Fortunately the owner was willing to figure that into the price, and sure enough, I'm in the process of re-doing the PFDs panel for $7k. What I'm doing would cost $20k or more if I was doing it in a Bonanza.

My introduction to General Aviation was my uncle's A33 Debonaire. In 1964. Absolutely nothing wrong with that plane as a platform, if you can afford the maintenance and insurance. I've found those things to be WAY cheaper in the Experimental world and contribute to my ability to afford cool avionics upgrades.
 
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apples to apples

It took us 4 years, keep searching.

Stay the course! Compare apples to apples. I initially didn't do this and I have seen my buds do the same. In a certified, we accept the vintage avionics with maybe a small mod and thousands of hours on the airframe and engine, yet in an RV, we are quick to reject it if it doesn't have the latest glass, paint and more than 500 hours on the airframe and engine.

From the time I started looking for an RV until the time I purchased one(over a year), my "had to have" list changed. I begrudgingly bought a plane with all round dials and an old GPS. After flying it for about 2 months, I realized I didn't even need the level of stuff that was in my plane!

RVs are incredible flying planes and the great thing about them is that they are all unique. You can make it the way you want it and for a lot less than modding a certified plane.

Find one with good bones and in a state that will currently suit you needs and make it the way you want it down the road. You will be surprised at how some of your "must haves" disappear after you start flying it.
 
Disgruntled

As a previous Debonair owner (for 8 years) and now a three-time RV owner (RV-8, RV-7, RV-8), I can tell you I will NEVER go back to certified aircraft. Why? Pure and simple economics. EVERYTHING in the certified world is grossly more expensive. Example, during an annual on my Deb, my A&P suggested that I replace a nose gear actuator rod end bearing as there had been multiple instances of them failing which could easily total the airplane. We both assumed it would be relatively (?) inexpensive. $750 later, it arrived! I experienced a fully correct $12k annual with my Deb that had previously been corporate owned and professionally maintained. No, I wasn't taken......overhauls and replacement items are just very expensive on certified aircraft.

Next, the latest glass is cool but there are some fine airplanes out there that have earlier avionics.....some with steam gages. Todays experimental avionics just aren't that expensive and, in my experience in upgrading the RV-7, they are pretty much plug and play. Be patient and consider airplanes that don't have everything on your wish list and you'll find a great airplane that won't take you to the poor house.
 
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Stay the course! Compare apples to apples. I initially didn't do this and I have seen my buds do the same. In a certified, we accept the vintage avionics with maybe a small mod and thousands of hours on the airframe and engine, yet in an RV, we are quick to reject it if it doesn't have the latest glass, paint and more than 500 hours on the airframe and engine.

I'm a big fan of the glass panel and wouldn't want to go back...but those things do become obsolete and will become an ongoing maintenance consideration. The original Advanced Flight 4500 and 3500 that I bought the plane with were my introduction to glass PFDs, and I love them. But, the reality is that once you hop on that merry-go-round, you're kind of stuck with the inevitable upgrades. They do wear out, components break, displays stop working, and the components and functionality improve at an amazing rate. I'm currently replacing my 4500 because the AHARs died. It "could" be fixed thanks to the foresight and ingenuity of Rob Hickman, but how long can they continue to maintain that obsolete glass? I opted to upgrade to brand new, bright displays, fast processors, more functionality rather than trying to breathe a few more years of life into that trusty old display. In 10 years...the new owner of that airplane will likely be faced with the same upgrade conundrums. Conversely, some of the trainer 172's at the FBO, no glass, have round instruments that have been in those planes since the 70's. Personally, I'd never go back to just round gauges, but one does have to accept the downside of the new electronics. Is anyone still using a 10 year old iPad or iPhone?
 
off of another forum i found this idea on buying a airplane:
///////
if you have a lingering doubt in your mind about anything in the airplane,
,,,,,, fix it,,,,,,
The reason is to "never" buy all the airplane you can,
Buy less than you can afford
and no expense, is to be, spared on the maintenance on the airplane.
Airplanes are expendable , people are not.
.....good luck / good day / rick
 
Oliver has it right. A buddy of mine just bought a Mooney and is looking at upgrading the panel. (2) Garmin screens, a G5, and a gtn750xi/650xi combo cost $108K with something like $30K in labor. Not only is that labor expensive but the parts are also MORE expensive. As an example, the experimental G5 serves 2 functions and cost approx half what its certified counter part costs that is locked into one function.

I would suggest that you need to think about how much you want to turn wrenches. If you intend to do your own maintenance and repair work the value the experimental provides is significant and worth waiting to find the airplane. If you intend to drop it off and pay a hired gun then that value is a moot point.

Unless you find the "perfect" certified airplane you are going to be paying someone else to upgrade/make changes. Those changes will cost more $ than similar changes to an experimental airplane and are significantly more limited.

As long as the experimental airframe is assembled correctly there is a price that makes it worth buying regardless of what panel it has etc. That price may be less than what the seller is looking to get.



A builder looks at an RV he wants to buy as a canvas. If the frame is good the canvas has no holes he can paint on it whatever he wants for the cost of the paint.

A none builder looks at an RV as a painting. If he doesn't like what he sees he needs to hire a painter to paint an entirely new painting over the existing one. Usually that's too expensive so he walks away.

So if you look at things like glass panel. You can build yourself one for 20k$ or you can pay a certified and fully licensed shop to do the same panel for 60k$. So being a builder or a none builder makes a big difference in terms of how much you value the airplane with the older panel.
... .

Oliver
 
Two of the main things I’d walk away from on a pre buy would be corrosion or poor workmanship. Most other things can be fixed (or not), for much less than the certified world.

If your want a perfect airplane, no problem. Cirrus will sell you one for $750,000. Or you could get a -10 like Pierre’s for a fraction of that with similar, if not better performance. No dream panel, no problem. Your options are unlimited in the experimental world. My entire panel was $15,000 less than a friends ADSB upgrade, GTN-750, and transponder on his V35. Don’t like the paint, $15,000 can fix that. Looks like a solid -10 with a new panel, new paint would be 1/3 the price of a new cirrus. A 50 year old certified plane will have their share of problems also.
 
I would NOT EVEN CONSIDER anything certified. At the airport I hear guys frequently enough chatting about their planes. At some point I causally ask about their fuel burn..... WOW. Takes a lot of petrol to haul them around.

Like Pierre said... Don't be too awfully picky. His example of a panel.... if it's not the one you want you can turn it into "yours." A fun process.

And remember if you have to have it today the only thing available is what's for
sale today. The perfect one may be just around the corners of tomorrow. If I were selling, well I'd probably wait to list until early spring when flying fever sets in. Be patient.

Personally I am the kind of fellow that likes the most for the least. A Vans RV is IMHO the GREATEST value for your aviation dollar.
 
Cirrus will sell you one for $750,000.

When I last checked (1.5 years ago) a brand new Cirrus SR20 base trim started around $420+tax, with about a year's wait. This price includes transition training. A -10 equipped not nearly as nicely, built mostly by others at one of the "builder-assist" centers in comparable time will end up costing significantly more than half that.

It appears that the OP is expecting to buy a NEW RV airplane. It's important to drive home the message that, at best, he'll be getting a USED airplane built by NON-PROFESSIONAL craftsmen with no QA nor warranty. While it is certainly true that there are a few work-of-art RVs out there, his chances of finding one through classifieds in a few weeks are nil+epsilon.

Or, he could get a new, professionally built RV-12iS from Van's for one-third the TCO of a base Cirrus and fly almost as fast with no medical fuss?
 
When I last checked (1.5 years ago) a brand new Cirrus SR20 base trim started around $420+tax, with about a year's wait.

True, but a more comparable plane to the -10 is the SR22, which lists the base price as $630,000

I have never had an SR22 Turbo outrun me below 11K Feet.
 
but one does have to accept the downside of the new electronics. Is anyone still using a 10 year old iPad or iPhone?

Uh, yes. My iPad mini, carrying all my charts (WingX), is ‘inherited’ from my wife, and more than 10 years old now. Does that make me a bad person?
 
Agreed. My RV8 has a D-180 so I priced it accordingly and when I compare it in price with the planes with Skyviews or G3x, mine is $30k below those, plus more importantly like others have said, GREAT construction, which you can't add later. Not saying the others don't have great construction, just saying mine does.

Mine also is completely white so it takes a couple of days to change the entire "paint" scheme to whatever you want and that's a BIG plus.
 
Uh, yes. My iPad mini, carrying all my charts (WingX), is ‘inherited’ from my wife, and more than 10 years old now. Does that make me a bad person?

My iPad Mini in the back seat is also first gen and it's still ticking fine. The one in front is newer and faster.
 
I'm a big fan of the glass panel and wouldn't want to go back...but those things do become obsolete and will become an ongoing maintenance consideration. The original Advanced Flight 4500 and 3500 that I bought the plane with were my introduction to glass PFDs, and I love them. But, the reality is that once you hop on that merry-go-round, you're kind of stuck with the inevitable upgrades. They do wear out, components break, displays stop working, and the components and functionality improve at an amazing rate. I'm currently replacing my 4500 because the AHARs died. It "could" be fixed thanks to the foresight and ingenuity of Rob Hickman, but how long can they continue to maintain that obsolete glass? I opted to upgrade to brand new, bright displays, fast processors, more functionality rather than trying to breathe a few more years of life into that trusty old display. In 10 years...the new owner of that airplane will likely be faced with the same upgrade conundrums. Conversely, some of the trainer 172's at the FBO, no glass, have round instruments that have been in those planes since the 70's. Personally, I'd never go back to just round gauges, but one does have to accept the downside of the new electronics. Is anyone still using a 10 year old iPad or iPhone?

I agree with liking the new stuff and the benefits. My main point wasn't to accept round dial but IF one is willing to accept a dated panel in a certified aircraft then why wouldn't he or she accept it in an RV. Even if it's a dated glass panel, it is probably better than the panel in the certified he or she is looking at. Also, you did exactly what I was stating. You chose to upgrade after purchase to make it exactly what YOU wanted. Much easier to do in an RV. IF a new iPad or iPhone were 20k, I guarantee people would still be using them.
 
I’ve sent two airplanes to pre buy and have rejected them both.
I’m considering an RV14 or an RV10 now but it just isn’t working out. There aren’t enough on the market, and those that are I guess are not good enough to buy.
What made them "not good enough to buy" Quality of workmanship, corrosion, engine issues?
 
I’ve sent two airplanes to pre buy and have rejected them both.
I’m considering an RV14 or an RV10 now but it just isn’t working out. There aren’t enough on the market, and those that are I guess are not good enough to buy.

Should I stay the course, or perhaps switch to certified (Debonair? A36?) Budget is $200,000.

Frustrated!!

Maybe you could build one and get exactly what you want.
 
I would NOT EVEN CONSIDER anything certified. At the airport I hear guys frequently enough chatting about their planes. At some point I causally ask about their fuel burn..... WOW. Takes a lot of petrol to haul them around....


If gasoline use is the metric that desireability is based on, an RV-10 or -14 might not be appropriate. But I've owned a certified airplane since 1986 and have had no problems that the certification made worse or more expensive. Generally speaking, a certified airplane, if it otherwise meets your needs, should be part of the group of airplanes that you're considering.

They often have one distinct advantage, too: service is more readily available, if you can't maintain it yourself.

Dave
 
What made them "not good enough to buy" Quality of workmanship, corrosion, engine issues?

One had been heavily modified from the kit instructions and plans to the point that structural integrity was compromised potentially . Another had an engine that was rusty in the cylinders and on the cam lobes. The seller wouldn’t take any money off to account for that looming issue.

I am not looking for a new, or even like new airplane. I’m looking for an airplane that’s well built and has good records.
 
I’ve sent two airplanes to pre buy and have rejected them both.
I’m considering an RV14 or an RV10 now but it just isn’t working out. There aren’t enough on the market, and those that are I guess are not good enough to buy.

Should I stay the course, or perhaps switch to certified (Debonair? A36?) Budget is $200,000.

Frustrated!!

Al? Was sorry to see you get booted from BT forum? What happened with the Twin Commanche purchase?

I'm going both paths - A36 and build RV.
 
...I've owned a certified airplane since 1986 and have had no problems that the certification made worse or more expensive

So not one avionics upgrade in all of those years? That would be a substantial difference.

Also if you added ADS-B then that is a major price difference compared with Experimental.
 
I would love a 10 but I don't have the time or skill to build one. I can't buy a bonanza today so our family owns a share in a club. Best of both worlds. Enjoy our 6 for most flights (3.7 today) but when we have a 3rd, 4th, or pet involved in our mission, we schedule the club plane.
 
One had been heavily modified from the kit instructions and plans to the point that structural integrity was compromised potentially . Another had an engine that was rusty in the cylinders and on the cam lobes. The seller wouldn’t take any money off to account for that looming issue.

I am not looking for a new, or even like new airplane. I’m looking for an airplane that’s well built and has good records.

Keep looking. My friend spent many months to land a good quality built RV8. It didn't come with all the fancy glass cockpit and all the IFR equipment but he got a good price because of the analog stuff. Like everyone said, you can always upgrade later.
 
iPad Mini age

Uh, yes. My iPad mini, carrying all my charts (WingX), is ‘inherited’ from my wife, and more than 10 years old now. Does that make me a bad person?

The first iPad Mini wasn’t even announced until October 2012.

Skylor
 
+1

Keep looking. Your in a price range that should get you what you want, especially for an RV-14. I am working with an airport buddy actively seeking an RV-9A. As I remind him, if its not exactly what he wants, if its close enough and priced right, it will give him some room $$ to make it how he wants. He is an AP/AI but not familiar with EXP aircraft. The market seems to be tight at this time with not a lot out there for sale, but that's a good thing in my book!

A few years ago, it took me a long time to find a good RV. Two deals died at the pre-buy inspection stage. One was something of a horror show.
 
Talk to anybody who has tried to buy a Deb or an A36... Just about every pre-buy comes up with something that either kills the sale or takes thousands of dollars of price adjustment to make right through tense negotiations. And then you've got an airplane that is much older and requires more maintenance, and that maintenance often has to be done by licensed mechanics.

While there are good and bad homebuilt airplanes, the average RV10 or RV14 will be quite a few steps ahead of an average Deb or A36 when it comes to total cost of ownership for the first few years in the hands of a new owner.

I'm saying this as a guy who has always lusted for a V35B Bonanza. While I'm a licensed mechanic there's just no way I could ever make the economics of the certified aircraft work. Now I've got two amateur-built airplanes that cost less to own than the Bonanza would and they both have far more advanced avionics than the Bonanza would. When it comes to value it's hard for the certified airplanes to measure up.
 
Oh, the Bonanza

Let me say this about that: I owned a P-model Bonanza for a few years. Wonderful flying airplane. Great to look at. Well built by the factory. Surprisingly efficient.

But...parts were outrageously expensive, the airplane is complex in way too many ways, older versions can have all sorts of nasty surprises. I was happy to buy that airplane, enjoyed it while I had it, but was even happier to sell it.

Finding the right flying homebuilt in a seller's market takes patience, period. The right one is out there.
 
Al? Was sorry to see you get booted from BT forum? What happened with the Twin Commanche purchase?

I'm going both paths - A36 and build RV.

Lee, I’m not sure what happened on BT. I can’t login anymore. The Twin needed $10,000 of gear work, which the seller was unwilling to complete.

I’ve owned Bonanzas in my past. Great airplanes but they do suck down the fuel and are expensive maintain, mostly due to parts cost.

So, still in the market for an RV10, 14A, or maybe a NICE 9A. If anyone knows of one, please contact me.
 
So, still in the market for an RV10, 14A, or maybe a NICE 9A. If anyone knows of one, please contact me.

Mornin’....don’t shoot me just yet but you may be too picky.. I have an RV-10 to sell and was turned down because the ‘glass’ is old school...Dynon 100 and D120.

The airplane has been to the Bahamas three times and is fully sorted. There is a little leading edge paint damage but the airplane is not ‘shabby’.

Consider carefully the value for your dollar. The airplane you pass up may not be a creme puff but a great value. Sometimes we can be a bit ‘picky’.

Cheers,

Looks like there's one to buy.
 
One had been heavily modified from the kit instructions and plans to the point that structural integrity was compromised potentially . Another had an engine that was rusty in the cylinders and on the cam lobes. The seller wouldn’t take any money off to account for that looming issue.

I am not looking for a new, or even like new airplane. I’m looking for an airplane that’s well built and has good records.

Small chips here... but just to let you know, I spent about 18 months looking for a RV-12 used, to fly. And the Rotax motor in them doesn't seem to get rusty cams or bores, or rings, like a Lycoming does. And, most, being built as E-LSA, are pretty much all the same.

For unknown reasons, with this Corona Virus in place, tons of people are looking for RV's, and seller's are holding on pretty tight. I have an acquaintance at KSZP that I brought eight RV-12's to his attention, over a period of maybe 4 months. He rejected every single one. He's 85, his 3rd class is looming, and he wants to get into a LSA plane and probably sell his 7A.

There's legitimate problems, and then there's being too picky. Best to ask your self, which are you? The builder sets the bar, you get to go out there, with limited product on the market, and get what you get when looking for something used. Usually it just happens when the two of you are in the right place, and the right time. That was my experience. YMMV, but I'd say now, you need the patience of a Saint to get close to what you want, currently. The market has slim pickings, currently.
 
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Seems to me, the past six months have been a sellers market. Even the Cessna 150/152 is bringing a premium dollar. I think my brother & I got lucky with the Rans S6S we just purchased. I feel we got a good deal, not screaming hot, but did good.
 
I put dibs on my 9A three years before I bought it. Mark is now building a 14 and it is spectacular. Don’t even think about it, I have dibs on it too!
 
I’ve sent two airplanes to pre buy and have rejected them both.
I’m considering an RV14 or an RV10 now but it just isn’t working out. There aren’t enough on the market, and those that are I guess are not good enough to buy.

Should I stay the course, or perhaps switch to certified (Debonair? A36?) Budget is $200,000.

Frustrated!!

$200K budget... OK. Buy what you like. An RV14/RV10 vs Debonair/A36 are totally different. Good luck. You could build a RV10/14 for under $200K paying a "helper". If you NEED a plane today building will not work. A build will take at 1-2 years with Pro help... Also listing RV14 2 Plc and RV10 4 Plc and Bonanza's tells me you don't know what you want. Have you owned a plane before? A retractable airplane will be more money to operate. If money is no problem go get a Beech. You can always sell it.
 
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I may get flamed for this, but unless you are an A&P (or almost one), I'd recommend staying with a certificated aircraft. While not a guarantee, a certificated aircraft is built (and hopefully maintained) under more strict rules and guidelines. But you still need a prebuy for a certificated aircraft to make sure you don't get a poorly maintained aircraft for too much $$. If you can find an RV that was built to a very high standard, that's fine too (but I'd really look deeply inside, rather than a cursory Prebuy that only lasts an hour or so)...and owning an RV maybe cheaper in the long run. I'd hire an A&P who has built an RV to do the maintenance on it. (Beechcraft maintenance can get get pretty expensive and you also have retracts to maintain.)

Just my opinion...and what I'd do if I were in your shoes if I had made up my mind I was not going to build it myself.
 
Maybe that, but maybe no fear of that either. By the flavor of his posts, he seems to find a reason to not purchase every aircraft he looks at...
I really do hope he finds something he will be happy with someday.

Following his threads are entertaining though
 
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Maybe that, but maybe no fear of that either. By the flavor of his posts, he seems to find a reason to not purchase every aircraft he looks at...
I really do hope he finds something he will be happy with someday.

Following his threads are entertaining though

And even if he finds a plane that doesn't give him a reason to NOT buy it, he's likely to discover things after he buys it.

Goes with the territory. You just accept it and fix it.
 
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