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True takeoff and landing numbers of rv7/9

shimuneka

Member
My plan is to fly my airplane (when completed) from a grass strip on my farm. I have 1,200' of grass to land on with trees on each end. I could easily have trees removed for additional clearway for approach/departure and plan on doing so. My main question is, regardless of your opinions on which engine is the best, how accurate are the performance numbers that are posted on Van's website. My background: I am a CFI,CFI-I, MEI, ATP, airline captain with over 7k TT and ZERO time in RV's. I have enough experience to understand I still don't know it all and really appreciate the help from you guys with the RV knowledge.
 
1200 feet with trees / obstructions will be a challenge. The airplane will do it, but you will have to do it perfect every time.

I fly a -7 and a -9 off 1800 ft with a 50 ft obstruction on one end and a clear approach path on the other. Plenty of margin on the clear approach. It's difficult on the obstructed end.

You'll have to throw out your airline stabilized approach with power to a 10,000 ft runway training.
 
Van's numbers very realistic. For further info on short/soft/obstacle clearance performance, search the archives here. Good discussions with some pearls of info, if you can wade through the noise. BTW, where's your farm (range of density altitudes)? Get the -9 with a CS -360 (or speed brakes!), and you'll have no problem. ;)
 
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numbers

From my experience Van's numbers are pretty accurate. Everything has to be as Van describes for the numbers to work though. It hasn't always been that way for me, but in ideal conditions, his numbers are very, very close.

Just for the sake of butting into your business in a polite way......I'm sure you will remove the trees. 1200 feet open on both ends will work if you always pay attenetion. Having the credentials you have, I'm sure you always will.
 
Thanks

I have every intention of having trees removed from both ends. I definitely don't want to crumple up an airplane. I think I can get an easy 300' added to either end to get around 1800 total length. BTW I am in southeast AL with field elevations in the 340-400' range.
 
When solo and smooth air... 400' rolling distance is no problem with a good approach.

Lots of good youtube videos if short field RV landings. Some are too crazy but most are safe.
 
shimuneka, I'm kinda like you. I bought my RV-6 with VERY little light airplane time. Mine didn't have a checklist, POH, performance data of any kind, etc. I'm working on some of that for mine now. It's slightly unsettling to have no TOLD data, but it's normally not an issue.

With that said, my airplane with a FP prop and 150HP O-320 varies significantly based on conditions of course. Somewhat more than I might expect, likely due to the FP prop which I'm just not used to yet. At sea level or close to it on a hard surface it'll be close to the Vans numbers. Departing two-up from long grass at 2100' on a warm day it's a totally different critter than down at your altitudes and on pavement. As I said, I'm still getting used to it, and collecting data for some basic TOLD guidelines.

You're in LA (Lower Alabama:)) so you're GTG altitude wise there. Lose the trees and you probably won't have an issue once you adapt to the airplane, even off the unimproved surface. The 160 hp CS RV-7 I flew with Mike Seager is a totally different animal in the initial takeoff roll than the 150 FP airplane, especially in the grass. It just accelerates much harder. Landings shouldn't be an issue.

Disclaimer: I'm very to the type, so take the above with a grain of salt...

Doug
 
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about getting IN...

maybe I am stating the obvious, but at least for the -9 FP, tendency to float especially when you are light will be significant if you have ANY excess airspeed at all. that extra wingspan coupled with any excess airspeed will probably send you around if you cross the threshold at anything over about 60 mph. my opinion only, and based on my airplane only...
 
You will find this topic has been discussed a few times - eg "I and building X and want to fly off of a grass strip that is <number less than 2000'> long".

The decision is yours and yours alone. What follows is my situation ..


Under ideal conditions, I achieve the Vans numbers. I rarely enjoy ideal conditions - a couple knots too fast or any variance to the wind or a bird or or or ...

I fly an fixed-pitch RV-8 solo off of a pretty smooth 1900' grass runway with trees at one end. It's hard to get "everything" just right. On a good day, if I am no faster than 64Kts on final (1.3x stall and not behind the power curve), I can be down and rolling to a stop by mid field when landing toward the trees. BUT, it does not take much to use 2/3rds or more. Landing over the trees I can expect to use 2/3rds. That means 1275' with no margin for error.

With the exception of a lone Cherokee, no one but me has ever landed coming over the trees and no one but me has ever taken off toward the trees. There have been a number of RV pilots who have visited. Some has CS props. There have been 9A, 7A, 6A, 7, and 8 representatives. The CS guys tend to do well; the 9A driver is a very experienced pilot with short grass strips. All are still rolling past mid-field and on the brakes.

If I had a shorter field with the trees at one end, I'd have more no-go flying days.
 
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What Don says

Is exactly right with the FP RV-9 and a short field. The approach over the threshold has to be on airspeed target or you will eat an 1800 ft runway up.
 
At my home airport, the first turn-off is 1000ft from the threshold. This is a paved "instrument" runway. I easily make the turn-off when I am concentrating on a short-field technique using 1.2 Vso or 51kias +0/-0.

However, my normal approach at 1.3 Vso +5kts/-0kts or 55-60kias I don't always make the first turn-off without moderate breaking. Neither of those approach speeds give you much "gust-factor".

On my "lazy" approach (no consideration for float) I usually approach at 60-65 kias and can not make the first turn-off.

The -9 will float if you approach at any speed above 60-65 at 75kias in "ground effect", you pretty much are at LD/Max plus the ground effect. You will float forever or until impact with the trees at the departure end absent a go-around.

I have an o-320 so take-off performance will be unique to my plane. Still, I have operated off of VERY short grass strips without too much concern. Keep in mind that Catto can make you a nice "climb" prop for any engine and I know from my -9 that prior to re-pitching to a "cruise" profile, I could out-climb any of our local RV's using less runway. It was like a rocket. You may consider a VP prop if a CS is out of the question.
 
49FD

I'm southeast of you about 90 miles (4 miles west of Quincy, Florida). 49FD is 2000 feet long. There are trees on the south end, but the north end is open. Fly over sometime when you have nothing to do and try it to get some experience. Don't bring one of your jets please.

David Watson
49FD
 
1200' = 370m. As noted above, the RV will go out of that easily provided the tress are not enormous (and Vans only give ground run figures, not 50')

The issue will be getting in. Again the ground run is fine with braking is good. It is the descent angle you can achieve , and the precision of the flare. Some of that is pilot ****, but some the aircraft.

A C/S prop will make a big +ve difference, especially the composite Hartzell or 3 blade MT.

We have a 525m strip with obstructions each end. If the wind and braking action are good, can operate in/out of the 1st half of it each way. Just had some trees down one end, and dropping power lines the other and the clear approaches will make it a lot easier ;)
 
Surprised nobody has mentioned it, but AoA is more than just a good idea for routine short field ops, because it allows you to carry the minimum of excess airspeed on final. The Navy uses them for carriers, which you could argue is a pretty similar mission.;)
 
Noah - good suggestion for builders and for those looking to make updates to their aircraft.

Of course, most of my Navy pilot friends don't perform short field landings - they perform short field controlled crashes ... "flare" is something that is shot from a gun. :eek:
 
I suppose I'm at risk of stating the obvious, but a C/S prop will help tremendously on landing; likely even more beneficial on landing than takeoff in a clean, light weight plane like an RV. I've operated off grass for over 20 years. When I switched from a 200hp Swift with C/S prop to a fixed pitch RV-4, I was amazed that I could land shorter in the Swift. The C/S prop & dirty gear made steep descent angles much easier and slowing down much quicker.

Charlie
 
I'm low time...

I think consistency is the key here, and I'm pretty inconsistant. Do you high time pilots ALWAYS have a good day?

Santa Susana Airport in Simi Valley, CA was 1800 ft, paved, and had a standard price sheet to replace the fence at the end of the runway.

:eek:

CC
 
Fly one?

If you'd like to try one on, send me a PM. I've got a 9A in Geneva that I'd be happy to show you and let you try on!!

As far as landing, 1000' is pretty doable with the proper speed control, for me, AOA is King. For taking off, I think the obstacle would be an issue, though I haven't really tried it much.

There also is a 7A at EDN that was just purchased and at least two 8's and a 4.
 
RV-9A test point today

I tried the approach recommended today in my RV-9A with a CS prop, solo. Approach dragging it in at 50 knots full flaps with touch down at the displaced threshhold. I was surprised that I easily made the first turnoff with mild braking in about 420'. If I braked heavy I believe in the exact same conditions it could have been about 350'. There was a 12 knot headwind down the runway.
 
At my home airport, the first turn-off is 1000ft from the threshold. This is a paved "instrument" runway. I easily make the turn-off when I am concentrating on a short-field technique using 1.2 Vso or 51kias +0/-0.

However, my normal approach at 1.3 Vso +5kts/-0kts or 55-60kias I don't always make the first turn-off without moderate breaking. Neither of those approach speeds give you much "gust-factor".

On my "lazy" approach (no consideration for float) I usually approach at 60-65 kias and can not make the first turn-off.

The -9 will float if you approach at any speed above 60-65 at 75kias in "ground effect", you pretty much are at LD/Max plus the ground effect. You will float forever or until impact with the trees at the departure end absent a go-around.
.
My Vso numbers match Vans published, which seems to correspond pretty closely with the numbers Tony provides above and my experience is similar to his. However, make sure you find your own Vso IAS to find your own 1.2/1.3 Vso IAS.

One other point that I have found relevant to landing distance is prop pitch. Originally underpitched, once repitched by Craig Catto for better cruise my tendency to float and/or bounce decreased noticeably. Similarly, reducing my idle rpm as low as possible (now about 510-520 on rollout) really helped.
 
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