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IFR equipment required in France??

Larco

Well Known Member
What is the required equipment for IFR in an RV in France? If someone wanted to sell and export an RV from the US to France and be IFR capable in France What are the requirements?
Thanks, Larry
 
Not Possible in Germany...

It is my understanding that IFR in a home build in Germany isn't possible. Europe is strange with EASA rules and National Rules. It should be the same in all countries in the EU but.... Le me know what you find out. An RV with IFR would be amazing!
 
It's my understanding that all amateur built aircraft in France are limited to day/VFR only.
Try contacting the Vans Club de France. They may be able to clarify.

Without a standard C of A, you are subject to the restrictions of each country that you fly in. In most cases this is also limited to day/VFR irrespective of what is authorised in the state of registration.

Sweden allow IFR in homebuilts in their airspace and the UK is introducing it too, but I don't know of anywhere else in Europe that it is approved.
 
I would love to know what country's allow it and which
Don't. In New Zealand hey have some home built to go IFR. That being said they are making it difficult for others.
 
Mark Albery said "Sweden allow IFR in homebuilts in their airspace and the UK is introducing it too, but I don't know of anywhere else in Europe that it is approved"

The UK LAA are certainly working towards IMC and Night VFR approval for certain permit-to-fly aircraft including qualifying home-built types, but not IFR as far as I'm aware. It's been extremely slow going and little news for the last year. I wouldn't bet on it happening any time soon.
 
Harry,

I know it's taking a long time in the UK, but the LAA is active in the background. Pete Pengilly (Penguin on VAF) is spearheading the effort and may be able to elucidate the current status. Also you can't be IMC without going IFR, so I'm not sure I understand that statement.

The LAA have a guidance document that explains the situation for most sub-ICAO CofA aircraft travelling round Europe.

I think it will be a long time before you can file IFR airways flight plans across Europe (legally) in a homebuilt, but efforts like Pete's are slowly chipping away at the barriers.
 
Thanks Mark
I have asked a question on the LAA site so we'll see what results.
As far as IMC without IFR, there's flight outside controlled airspace (Class G) but not in sight of the surface and I would have thought this may be a significant part of what an LAA aircraft would be used for if approved.
 
NOT allowed

What is the required equipment for IFR in an RV in France? If someone wanted to sell and export an RV from the US to France and be IFR capable in France What are the requirements?
Thanks, Larry

Hi,

Homebuilts registered in France are NOT allowed IFR , or night.
Day VFR only...

From what I know: it is not allowed to buy a project that was built elsewhere and import it in France.
To register a homebuilt in France the construction must start in France, that means that one must do the initial bureaucracy and get the approval from the French authorities and start the built in France.
After that is done the project can be finished anywhere, even registered in an other country, and re-imported back in France as long as the initial steps were done in France.

Homebuits that are registered elsewhere are subject to the rules of the country where they are registered, which means it can fly IFR in France as long as it is legal in the contry of registartion.

I hope that hepls.
 
Thanks everybody for all the input. It is wonderful to have such a resource for information. Appreciate it. Larry
 
It is possible to own a aircraft in France that was built in another country if the airplane remains registered in another country and can be maintained to that country's standards. For example the airplane could be built in the Netherlands and retain it's Netherlands registration while being owned and flown in France. I know of one case where this was true, and I flew with the owner in his Netherlands registered RV-4. There are N-registered airplanes in France, and you can also find US AI qualified mechanics in France who can do the annual inspections. Not the best situation, but it works.
 
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It is possible to own a aircraft in France that was built in another country if the airplane remains registered in another country and can be maintained to that country's standards. For example the airplane could be built in the Netherlands and retain it's Netherlands registration while being owned and flown in France. I know of one case where this was true, and I flew with the owner in his Netherlands registered RV-4. There are N-registered airplanes in France, and you can also find US AI qualified mechanics in France who can do the annual inspections. Not the best situation, but it works.

So this is the situation I'm anticipating in the not-too-distant future. I'm the US registered owner of a US-registered RV-7A which I built and for which I hold the Repairman's Certificate. When I move to France, I can ship the plane over. What are the rules and limitations under which I then operate? Since I'm a US pilot in a US plane, I get that it's legal to fly it in any ICAO country (as long as you abide by their rules). So it looks like day/VFR only, which is okay (not ideal, but okay). What about maintenance? I presume I'm operating under the US rules for annual condition inspection to stay legal, right? Do I *also* need to conform to any EU or French regulations on maintenance?
 
Do I *also* need to conform to any EU or French regulations on maintenance?

No, you don’t. Your Repairman’s Certificate stays valid, and as such you may continue to enjoy the privileges as given by the FAA.
 
So this is the situation I'm anticipating in the not-too-distant future. I'm the US registered owner of a US-registered RV-7A which I built and for which I hold the Repairman's Certificate. When I move to France, I can ship the plane over. What are the rules and limitations under which I then operate? Since I'm a US pilot in a US plane, I get that it's legal to fly it in any ICAO country (as long as you abide by their rules). So it looks like day/VFR only, which is okay (not ideal, but okay). What about maintenance? I presume I'm operating under the US rules for annual condition inspection to stay legal, right? Do I *also* need to conform to any EU or French regulations on maintenance?

Most countries issue a *special* Certificate of Airworthiness for an Amateur Built. This is a non-ICAO-standard certificate and therefore you can not fly your experimental to "any ICAO country".

At least this is the way it works in EASA. Your Special-CoA is only valid for the country for which it is issued. If you want to fly to or above a different country you have to request a Permit To Fly (PTF).

Luckily a lot of countries adapted the 1980 ECAC conference recommendation that encourages states to accept each others special-CoA's. So Dutch experimentals can fly to the United Kingdom without a PTF. On the other side, until recently a Dutch Experimental flying to Belgium needed to apply for a PTF, because it is just recently that they adapted the ECAC recommendation.

Another thing is the 28days limitation rule. A lot of European countries will allow foreign experimentals but will restrict their stay to 28 days per year. This is against the 1980 ECAC recommendation, but a lot of countries have this rule in place.

So if you want to move to France be sure to grab yoursef a copy of the National regulation regarding homebuilt. The association is https://rsafrance.com

And finally: All European countries have there own set of rules. The differences are huge.
 
Most countries issue a *special* Certificate of Airworthiness for an Amateur Built. This is a non-ICAO-standard certificate and therefore you can not fly your experimental to "any ICAO country".

You're right, and thanks for the info. I was thinking of TCed A/C, and not EAB. It seems that different countries have different time limits from what I've gleaned all over the web today (e.g., looks like Germany allows 6 months, with a 6-month extension; France is 28 days; etc.), *but* it also seems there are some N-numbered EABs there that, shall we say, fly under the radar waaaaaay past those limits (from the discussions I've seen).

In the end, definitely looks more complicated than I initially thought. But, I remain hopeful...where there's a will, there's a way, as they say :).
 
For all the trouble the FAA is...I'm surely blessed to not have to deal with this this lunacy.

I really do feel for you lads...even with thousands of hours of EU flying experience, I can't imagine the EAB bureaucracy one must endure.
 
For all the trouble the FAA is...I'm surely blessed to not have to deal with this this lunacy.

I really do feel for you lads...even with thousands of hours of EU flying experience, I can't imagine the EAB bureaucracy one must endure.
When I started to undertake building in Switzerland, I thought that the rules looked very complex and difficult. They are more complex than in the US and some other countries, but what they do is lay out a process to follow that is simply good practice. Lots of inspections, keeping a paper trail of what you do, more inspections, and a very formal test flight process that's very similar to what the EAA has in their test cards. And in fact, the testing process was fun, and gives you some structure that helps you learn your aircraft. My 15 min climb test at max performance was cool - I had to keep asking for another few thousand feet of clearance from the controllers until they finally said - "Just keep climbing as you need - BTW, what are you flying?" Covid-19 meant there were very few aircraft flying at any altitude.

If you are building something like an RV which is not the first aircraft in the country, then it's quite easy and straightforward. If it's your own design or the first one flying in the country, get ready for some serious engineering work.

I've traveled to 6 countries so far with my RV-8, and have not had any issues at all - although I'm only flying VFR. Hopefully in the coming months I'll add a few more countries and have the same smooth flying. There are lots of people that have flown around the world with their EAB aircraft, so with a bit of planning and a lot of $ it can be done within the rules of many countries.
 
Sorry...the lunacy I was referencing the IFR prohibition, especially given the framework you build in. That and carbon emissions offsetting for an airliner when ATC makes you do an NDB on a clear day instead of doing a visual, but that's for an entirely different thread.
 
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EU IFR

I live in Sweden where IFR and Night is approved.
I have flown to many EU countrys and one time to Canada at Night and IFR without any problems for more than 20 years.
Most countries seem to accept the roules where the aircraft is registred.
ATC is there to help us, they are not a police force.
Yes, if you screw up in the wrong country you may face questions.

Good luck
 
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