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What you would do different RV-4 builders

blackbeard10

Well Known Member
A recent thread had the generalized theme of "what you would do differently."
Being at the RV4 fuselage stage, I am particularly interested in comments vis a vis the 4. Removable floor panels, modular instrument panel are concepts I intend to incorporate. 27 years of RViator has a section based on the "what you would do differently" theme. A few good tips but generalized over all of the RVs. The mission for my airplane will be cross country speed machine, keep the weight down and and keep it simple stupid. Any comments will be appreciated.
Mark Wyss
Cincinnati, Ohio
RV4 fuselage
 
Hi Mark
Flying my -4 for 250 hrs now the changes I would make are.
Fast back canopy
EFIS
auto pilot
rocket fuel tanks (57 gals)
sam james cowl with pletum
 
Mark, I put some of the issues on my blog, here. The things I would add to that would be the VANS oil cooler is far more than you need for an O-320 RV4. They run cool. It is also heavy and hold lots of oil.

- I would use the small Setrab cooler. I nearly did and wish I had. Search for Setrab and you will find the Rockets use them.

- There are numerous details throughout the blog. Keep the space between your feet clear so you can use it for heavy items to pull the CofG forward when you have a P2.

- I made the RHS floor removable so I can get to the True Trak and see underneath somewhat.

- Smoky once mentioned the forward sideskins are sometimes beefed up; heavier grade. I am not sure why. I would find out about that next time.

- Most important, build a -4 when you are still 20 years old. I am > 60 so have lost 40 years of the best flying going!

All in all I would not change much from what I have.

PS Why is this in Classifieds. It should be under RV4
 
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What would I do different in an RV-4? (I had one for 12 years)
* Most comfortable seats possible
* Extra ventilation
* NOTHING over the tunnel under the instrument panel. When you're flying in bright sunshine, it's real hard to read anything down there
* Make the manual trim lever extra long so you can make really fine trim adjustments.
* Electric aileron trim. The RV-4 ailerons are so sensuous that it's a crime to put even the minor drag of centering springs
* Usable storage areas for charts, airport directories, water bottles, sun screen, etc.
* Constant speed prop, for sure. Worth the weight and cost for takeoff acceleration, climb, and for drag on final and rollout.
* Put all the gauges on the panel in the forward field of view. You shouldn't have to look on the floor to see something important.

Ed Wischmeyer

Straight-tail Cessna that wants to trade for an RV, preferable a nicely built, minimally equipped RV-8 with a constant speed prop; and an AirCam, that wants me to move from Iowa back to Arizona
 
should be in RV 4 area

Must have pushed a wrong button on this here computer.
This post should be in the RV4 area. Sorry guys.
Mark Wyss
Cincinnati
RV4 fuselage
 
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* Electric aileron trim. The RV-4 ailerons are so sensuous that it's a crime to put even the minor drag of centering springs

* Constant speed prop, for sure. Worth the weight and cost for takeoff acceleration, climb, and for drag on final and rollout.

This is what I keep telling everybody, for the perfect reasons you've mentioned; and it doesn't need to apply to just a "4". :D

L.Adamson --- RV6A/ CS prop/ elec. aileron trim with aileron mounted tab.
 
changes to rv4

Ed W. has put it in a nut shell. My ideas are, don't put extra fuel on board unless you have super comfortable seats. If you are flying with a passenger, pipe some heat back to them (not easy routing it). Keep the weight forward if you are hauling passengers and cargo. If your sole intention is solo aerobatics, then keep the weight aft. fit the canope as close as possible, leaks add to noise. Wing leveler is a must for X country. If you are big or have big footed passengers, electric flaps sure would make it easier. Good ANR headsets essential.
 
My take on mods

I am not flying yet but?

I would do the calculations to see if the firewall could be extended forward about one inch, or so. I am 6'-0" tall and weigh 155 pounds but am cursed with long legs. My Wrangler jeans say 32 waste, 34 length. Even with a 1 inch thick seat back cushion, I'd really like to have one more inch. Compared to my C-172 the leg room in the 4 is borderline comfortable for me. Building the seat farther back in the airplane is not a great solution. Also, the average 4 is light in the front end. Panels and engine accessories have become lighter since the RV-4 was designed in the 80?s. Modern glass panel units weigh ounces compared to rows of traditional round gauges. I am going to use composite fixed pitch prop. The combination of simple glass panel and light prop are causing me to put ballast in the front end to make the passenger seat usable for my 120 pound wife and some luggage. There are other threads about ?build it light.? I did build my airplane light, but now I?m faced with BALAST in the front end to facilitate a useable payload in back. I'm wondering if this problem could be solved by extending the firewall forward about one inch (?). I have looked over the plans and it appears the distance between bulkheads F401 and F402 could easily be built longer toward the front. Leave the placement of the panel alone so the stock canopy fits as designed. Steve S. has a good suggestion about the heavier side skins in the front. The extended leg room would possibly make the finished airplane more marketable to sell (?).

Otherwise, I love the stock 4 looks, design and sports car fit of the cockpit. I would do it all over again.
 
KISS

Mark,
I built my RV4 from 89-95' and flew it for 12 years/1500 hours. Things I added and changed were as follows:

1. Rear passenger footwells.
2. Lots of ventilation. Underwing NACA for backseat (like RV8) small NACA ducts underside of "cheeks" or use Vetterman vents for front seat.
3. Extended rear baggage, see ski tube post this section.
4. Safe Air One ER tanks or use RV-6 wing tanks. (I would install both!)
5 Odessey battery on firewall, hinge battery compartment lid and use as forward baggage.
6. .040 forward fuselage floor/sides aka Rocket with fastback.*if using 0-360/Hartzell.
7. IO-320/Airflow Performance and Electroair Ignition/ composite prop.
8. .020 tail feathers (elev/rudd)
9. Long Gear/Team Rocket fairings/Van's pants/380X150X5 tires.
10. Oregon Aero seats

Above all, try to keep it light, clean and simple. Mine weighed 925 lbs before paint. It weighed 950 when I sold it. You can't beat the RV4, the absolute best bang for the Buck.

However, The Harmon Rocket is Alot more Bang for Alot more Bucks...:)

Smokey
HR2



The Bandit in my driveway, ready to go...
 
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I think Smokey sums it up pretty well. Ventilation is a must, that canopy is a huge magnifying glass in the summer. The firewall seems to get a little warm as well, and at 90F outside a little extra air is nice. I've got an o360 in mine and started out with a fixed pitch prop. After 5 hours of flying I bolted the Hartzell on and love it. It is heavy in the nose however. Oregon aero seats are the best, you can sit in 'em all day without any fatigue whatsoever. An EFIS is definitely the way to go, there isn't really much room if you want a nice clean area behind the panel in keeping with installing as many necessary instruments as possible; and if you want all the electrical switches up there too. Also, if I were to do it all again, I would purchase all sub-kits at once so all the parts are there. Nothing more annoying than looking for a part for an hour and realizing you have to wait 'till the next kit arrives.
 
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Fuel

I have the ER tanks in my -4 and if I could redo things, I would Not use them again. Here's why. In order to get the 3.8 gallons per side into the main tanks, I plumbed in some small (2.5#) pumps. This (Hotel Whiskey tanks)really added to the weight (I guess about 15 pounds altogether) and more importantly, it added complexity and additional failure points in a crucial system. But 8 gallons is alot and helps anytime I travel.

So, I'd do RV-6 tanks...no extra weight really, but still have ability to get 40 gallons in for X-Country with a simple (Vans) system for fuel delivery.

And, I used the RV-10 vents (one) for passenger cooling....excellent!

No heat in the back is a real problem, but don't know of a good solution.

Love the -4:)
Ron
N8ZD - RV-4
with a Slider -8 canopy
 
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....hot women

No heat in the back is a real problem, but don't know of a good solution.

Love the -4:)
Ron
N8ZD - RV-4
with a Slider -8 canopy

Ron, heating in the -4, front or back is not a problem once you add electric seats. (As Smoky often observes keeping the GIBs warm is important.) I am running my cabin heat off the oil cooler output, which is enough to keep my toes warm, and stop the canopy steaming up, but not much else since my engine runs very cool. (The -4 is just too fast!) However in my seat backs I have electric seat heater elements. They are the ones Mercedes use. With that on you cant get cold, in fact after half an hour or so I have to turn mine off. I have not bothered with an element in the bit of the seat you sit on, just the seat back. It struck me that your back is larger and less insulated than your butt.

The interesting thing is they only draw a bit over 2 amps each, so a total load of 5 amps. On a -4 in particular its so much easier to get heat into the back than a duct. Perhaps in very cold parts of the world a heater in the seat squab would also make sense, but that would still be a draw of less than 10 amps.

I have mine wired up on a relay so they can only be on when the alternator is running to stop the battery draining.

There is more about seat heaters on another current thread. I notice now I started that one when I was still thinking about how to keep warm in the -4.

Though the output from the oil cooler is a little disappointing I would do it that way again because I have no use for any more heat in view of the electric heat. It all helps to save weight and keep the parts count down. VANS or Setrab oil cooler I would mount it as I did in this picture directly onto the engine frame. This way is saves the stress on the baffles and I feel - though have no stress analysis - that this way it puts less load on the poorly designed engine mount/fuselage interface.
 
Rear seat footwells are a mod that isn't too hard to do after you have the plane flying. They are a nice addition. Some sort of seat lifter pan in the rear will greatly enhance passenger comfort as well.

Wing leveler would be nice for cross-country for sure.

I imagine, since I don't have one, that the usual location for wing servo would not work with rear seat footwells - have to go with wing mounted option.

Some sort of rudder trim would be nice. I'm thinking of coming up with some sort of spring bias thing even though those solution just don't seem "elegant" enough for my tastes.

I have my radio and transponder in a console down under the panel and I find that works great. I have Garmin 196 (yeah I know it is out of date but it was the thing when I got it) mounted front and center in the panel. I have freq flip flop and ident switches on stick so I don't have to spend much time looking in the "hole" while flying save to dial in a new freq.

I had manual trim and like my electric elevator trim - more precise and again a button on the stick drives it.

Manual flaps are fine but I upgraded to electric as I had to keep educating passenger to move there foot when I was reaching for the handle. Switch to control is on the stick as well.

Biggest additoon I would make is two axis auto-pilot as it woud greatly enhance reading a chart (does anyone do that anymore?) in flight and allow you to sit back and get lazy enroute. Maybe that isn's such a a good idea afterall...

I like the battery on the firewall idea. Never heard of a nose-heavy RV and, while my center console is removable with not too much effort getting to the battery is a PITA.

If the battery was on the firewall I'd install a charging/starting jack someplace for these times you need a jump start (if you never left a master on Murphy will dicate you do so far far away from home).

Oh - I would make sure my master switch was in an out of the way place so that my big foot wouldn't hit it from time to time crawling out of the airplane causing issue above....

Richard
 
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If building another RV4; I would raise the turtle deck, add foot wells, move the panel forward a couple of inches, widen and lengthen the fuselage using thicker skins, clip the wings, lengthen the gear and add two more cylinders to the engine and install a bigger prop.
 
Yup....what Tom said.

And, after doing all of the modifications I'd think about a name change....something like......R O C K E T :D.

After having four RV4's I have to say they are (IMO) the best of Vans planes......but I'm not ready to trade in my Rocket just yet :D.

If building another RV4; I would raise the turtle deck, add foot wells, move the panel forward a couple of inches, widen and lengthen the fuselage using thicker skins, clip the wings, lengthen the gear and add two more cylinders to the engine and install a bigger prop.
 
Thicker side skins on fwd fuselage

Smoky,
Why the thicker side skins if using the 0-360?
That's what I'm going to use, and this is something I wasn't aware of.
Could you enllighten me?

Thanx
 
Anyone do foot wells for the pilot? (I'd absolutely do'em for the passenger BTW as well as some padding where their knees rest on the sides)

I'd think wells a few inches aft of where your heals rest when on the rudder peddles would work if there's space below the floor. When enroute I don't have a good place to rest my feet. Neither flat on the floor nor resting on the rudder peddles is comfortable for long??
 
In the RV-4 the front feet sit right on the lower skin. No room under them for footwells. This isn't a problem as you butt is sitting above the floor aft the main spar carrythrough.

The need for rear foot wells is called for by the fact the rear seat is on the same floor the rear seat passengers feet are. By raising the rear seat and making footwells the comfort for the rear passenger is greatly enhanced.
 
Fastback

Hi Mark
Flying my -4 for 250 hrs now the changes I would make are.
Fast back canopy
EFIS
auto pilot
rocket fuel tanks (57 gals)
sam james cowl with pletum

Dayton,

Why would you have the fastback canopy. I like this myself, but can't justify it beyond "looks cool" and maybe some better roll-over protection in event of a woopsy.

Cheers,
Andrew.
 
Fast Back

Hi Andrew

I talked with Dave Anders about the fast back and he said that he gained the most speed with this change to his RV4. 8-12kts.
 
Rocket=More...

Dayton/Kiwi,

As Tom Martin said earlier, all of the mods everyone has posted (fast back, thicker skins, foot wells, more room) are Standard on the Rocket...At Sun N Fun several years ago I asked Van bluntly if after the RV8's success he would continue making RV4 kits. His response with a grin was, " What would the Harmon Rocket guys do if I quit making RV4's?"...After flying my Harmon Rocket for 300 hours and getting back into an RV4 I notice all the things on this list. The RV4 is a great airplane, the Rocket is the RV4 personified. What would I do different? Call John Harmon!

Merry Christmas!
Smokey
HR2

Larry Vetterman removed the IO-540 from his HR2 in lieu of an IO-360, same cowl, different mount. He shed 175 lbs from the empty weight and claims it flies more like an RV4, though his low end fuel burn numbers are the same as an IO-540. I trust Larry's vision, you could build an HR2 for the same price as a high end -4 with the right scrounging! Personally, I like the IO-540's smoothness and takeoff performance. Regardless, if I was building an RV4 again, it would be a Rocket!
 
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Fastback Weight Penalty

I've seen a couple of posts where it was mentioned that a fast back conversion would add some weight to an RV-4. I just looks like it could be a weight reduction, unless you incorporated the heavier skins that the Rocket uses. My theory is that aluminum is lighter than plexy, and it appears that the fastback replaces some plexy with aluminum in the turtle deck area. So, where does the extra weight come from and what is your quess on how much weight would be added?

Tom
 
Thanks

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread . Great ideas and comments, many of which will find their way into my 4. Sounds like I should start saving for a Rocket kit as well.
Mark Wyss
rv4 fuselage
 
Things I am doing on my Second 4

1. As straight as I can build it.
2. As light as possible
3. As much power as I can afford. (without building a rocket)

Those are the big pictures, here are some of the little ones.

1. Smoke oil in the wing (maybe)
2. Stewart Warner oil cooler.
3. Aileron push pull tube boot at fuselage
4. Turtle deck
5. Shear tips
6. All gauges and switches on the panel in front of me.
7. Prime only raw stock and between parts
8. EFIS, engine gauges will be steam. NO vacuum
9. 2 Axis auto pilot, coupled to GPS
10. Handheld radio in panel, with GPS docked
11. RV-6 Tanks, already done.
12. Sam James Cowl W/plenum
13. Rear seat foot wells
14. The best intercom/stereo and headsets I can afford.
15. Electric flaps
16. .020 skins and trailing edge extrusion on elevators. Ailerons and
Rudder will get the extrusion and all will get ribs. Had a problem with tin
canning.
17. Under wing vent ala RV8.
18. Seal tail cone holes at HZ stab spar with poly fabric.
19. Think out the panel, draw it out, plan it better, wait untill the last second
to buy radios ect.
20. No lights.
22. Continually change this list.


A great read for you speed buffs.

http://speedwitheconomy.com/

Thanks for the help Gary
 
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Shear Tips?

Hey Randy!!

Great List, but could you elaborate on the shear tips. Sounds like the old Mooney approach.

What are they and what is the advantages/disadvnatages, etc.

Thanks, Tom
 
Although I didn't build my RV-4, here are the things I would do if I did...

1) Larger fuel tanks
2) EFIS/EMS - No steam or vacuum clocks
3) Seal the canopy
4) Design an effective heat/cool air system
5) Tinted canopy with fastback mod
6) Great intercom - Must work with iPod and XM flawlessly
7) IO-360 180 HP with constant speed
8) LED strobes
9) 2 axis AP
10) As close to 950# empty as possible
11) Simple auto style fuse blocks
12) Rudder trim
13) More built in storage - Map box between the knees
14) Battery in engine compartment
15) Single comm with features like SL-40
 
Mods to seal the canopy

. Hi Sid, your thinking down the same lines as I am. It's interesting to read about the guys with the 8's having their canopy's lift in flight. The way the 4 is hinged on one side and the pin through the back I don't see how it could move up much at all. With the Turtle deck and a shorter canopy, if it is hinged and pined the same way it should seal very well. I believe that the lightning holes in the bulk head just forward of the HZ forward spar, and the holes that are below and between the front and rear HZ spar, create a suction right through the whole plane. There for it may be necessary to seal them and put boots around the aileron push pull tubes that go through the side of the fuselage.
Tell me what your thinking about how to heat front and back, cool isn't an issue, I can do that.

Thanks, Randy



4) Design an effective heat/cool air system
5) Tinted canopy with fastback mod
 
For heat in the front I want to blend the warm air in the cool air vents. I have 2 cool air vents located in the center console. I have a warm air vent on the firewall on the left side. So when it's cold out I have a warm left knee and the rest of me is frozen. I think a scat tube to the back would not only help the rear passenger but would help keep the whole cabin area warmer. I'm not sure how to route this around the spar though.

I sealed the front of the canopy using automotive windshield adhesive (urethane). I put Vasoline on the airplane where the canopy closes and put a bead of urethane on the canopy. I closed this up for a few days and hoped it didn't glue itself shut. After 3 days it popped right open. It works perfectly, now my hands don't freeze.

I ordered what I thought was a moulded black seal for the rear skirt but it is rubber red so I haven't played with it. I may do the urethane thing again. It looks good and should last.

Living in Georgia we don't have many really cold days but I found I don't enjoy flying as much when I can't get warm.
 
For heat in the front I want to blend the warm air in the cool air vents. I have 2 cool air vents located in the center console. I have a warm air vent on the firewall on the left side. So when it's cold out I have a warm left knee and the rest of me is frozen. I think a scat tube to the back would not only help the rear passenger but would help keep the whole cabin area warmer. I'm not sure how to route this around the spar though.

I sealed the front of the canopy using automotive windshield adhesive (urethane). I put Vasoline on the airplane where the canopy closes and put a bead of urethane on the canopy. I closed this up for a few days and hoped it didn't glue itself shut. After 3 days it popped right open. It works perfectly, now my hands don't freeze.

I ordered what I thought was a moulded black seal for the rear skirt but it is rubber red so I haven't played with it. I may do the urethane thing again. It looks good and should last.

Living in Georgia we don't have many really cold days but I found I don't enjoy flying as much when I can't get warm.

could you explain how you would blend the cold and hot air. I'm concidering doing this to my 7. thanks
 
Rip stop nylon for aileron push rods.

Steve, I used a rip stop nylon that I got from a hot air balloon company. But any lightweight, ideally air proof rip stop would be just fine.

They just about show on my blog, but not enough to help. (Recent pictures of the fuselage.)

I put rings on the outside of the fuse, clamped cones of nylon inside those and then used electrical tape to wind them onto the aileron tubes. If necessary the tubes would slide inside the nylon, but there is enough slack that this is not necessary.

PS There is a picture here that might help a little. The material is not shown just the clamping plate.
 
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ER tanks

For those of you who are using -6 tanks on a -4 wing, how did you accomplish this mod? Did you have to change the -6 tanks in any way? Also how does the weight compare to the stock -4 tanks?
 
Mods depend on what you want to do with the airplane

I finished my -4 in 2002. I think the mods you make totally depend on what you need / want to do with it. My mission has changed since I finished it, so here is what happened to me. When I completed it the configurations was:

Electric Flaps
SL-40 (I love this radio)
Simple intercom
Battery in the stock location in the hole
Wood prop
O-360.
Vans engine guages
Steam gauges (ASI, T/B, Alt, VSI)
Garmin 195 mounted in the panel
Bent whip com antenna on the bottom of the fuse
Garmin 327 xponder
The radio stack was on a subpanel between my legs. I really liked to fly with this confguration, but getting to the battery was next to impossible.

This was great until I discovered that I tended to fly a lot more cross country than I originally anticipated. This airplane can cover a lot of ground in a day. Anyway, I had to fly somewhere in marginal weather and found myself in a canyon in southern Oregon with low ceilings and trying to look at the map 800 feet off the ground.

Then I added a TT single axis autopilot.

Somewhere in here I upgraded to a -496 with weather.

Lost a prop blade somewhere in here and bought a Catto composite prop. The airplane is plenty fast with this, I see 190 knots TAS without pushing it too much. All out, I have seen 194 knots TAS on a really cold day (0 degF) at 3500 msl. I ussually cruise at about 165 -170 knots throttled back to about 55% at 8 gph.

Finally in 2007 I did the following:

Moved the battery from the hole to the right hand cheek, mounted on the engine mount (I didn't have room on the firewall) and changed to small Oddessy battery.
Removed radio stack subpanel
Moved the solenoids to the firewall.
Got rid of all the steam and vans guages, added a AFS-3500 EFIS.
Added an SL-30 Nav/com for IFR flight
Added a Garmin audio panel/marker beacon
Upgraded the autopilot to a TT two axis digiflight
Added the TT ADI as a backup horizon
Added a two inch ASI as backup
Added a heated pitot (we have a lot of ice in Idaho, even if it is not forecast)
Added David Archer com antenna and nav antenna to the wingtips
Footwells - a must if you carry rear passengers more than 4 feet tall.
Electric trim - removes a lot of rear weight
HID landing light

Surprisingly, once I made all these changes the airplane weighs what it did originally, but with the CG farther forward. This allows more passenger and baggage weight. Since I like to go places with my wife, this is important.

If I had it to do all over again I would do most of this, but probably install a garmin 430 and take out the SL-30 and SL-40. This mod would probably save some weight since I would remove one of the wingtip antennas and the associated wiring. I also would probably build larger tanks. The stock tanks are a little bit of a problem out here in the west when the weather does not cooperate.

Also as someone else said, spend money on the seats.

Faster is always better in my book, so I would probably do the fastback as well, knowing what I know now. The -4 is pretty fast anyway however. See above.

Whatever you do, make it light. My plane got overweight in the middle there, and finally when I went to the efis and smaller battery the weight came back down by about 20 lb. It is a big difference. It would be even better if I could lose 20 lb. Imagine the performance!
 
Great source for firs time builders like myself. Anyone have anything else to add? Been a while since the last post.

Cheers
 
RV4 build improvements

I would reinforce the lower firewall to bottom angle attachment. My rivet holes going in the bottom of the stainless steel firewall to bottom angle are cracking at the ends approx 3-4 rivets from outboard to inboard, on each side. Despite having the thicker corner weldments this area flexes allot and the thin SST likes to crack. In order to fix a Stock airplane I likely have to pull the engine and mount to reinforce this bottom area properly, a doubler of some kind is needed.
KF
 
How does the fuse breath ?

A fabric cover at the HS to block air raises the question, How does warm air and cold air ( cabin comforts) get out ? That said, the canopy, flaps etc. probably leak air from the pressurized cockpit. Fix ALL the leaks and no air flow in the cockpit ? So, help me out here. How would you control air flow in perfectly sealed airframe? Dan H advised me years ago that a negative pressure area would need to be identified experimentally with tubes and manometer to know where to put a Controlled vent.
 
Bent whip com antenna on the bottom of the fuse

The radio stack was on a subpanel between my legs. I really liked to fly with this configuration, but getting to the battery was next to impossible.

NOTHING over the tunnel under the instrument panel. When you're flying in bright sunshine, it's real hard to read anything down there



I agree with a lot of what has been said already. Rear seat foot wells are a MUST. I like manual flaps (simple, light-weight) and put a sliding extension on the handle to make pulling flaps at speed easier.

I have a center console that is easily removed in one unit for battery access. Takes about 10 minutes. And I can see everything on it, Sunlight or no, as you can see in the attachment. There is a map pocket at the top of it. The attached picture is of my panel from years ago that is currently going through some changes; stay tuned! The center console will not be changed. I really like my set-up. As it has been said, sit with poster board cut out of all your proposed instruments and STARE at it; move them around. Rearrange them. It took me several months to get the panel to be what I wanted it to be. I am familiar enough I can identify the instruments with my eyes closed. I have flow over 1200 hours with this panel. Wouldn't change the basic layout. Changes are replacing the mEncoder with a Dynon, removal/replacement of the GPS (out with the old Trimble....remember them?) and other subtle changes. Sometimes modifications seem to take longer than the original built.....:D

There is a battery charging plug-in on the port side of the tunnel. VERY handy for charging or trickle charging the battery.
 

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