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Vans Customer Service for the RV-14!

RV14 Customer Support.

  • I feel Vans customer support is fine as is for the RV14.

    Votes: 39 81.3%
  • Vans needs to step up their Customer Support for the RV14 on the Engine and Avionics.

    Votes: 9 18.8%

  • Total voters
    48

Jetguy

Well Known Member
There seems to be an interesting phenomenon going on these days on different threads on the form. It concerns customer service. What should we as builders of a $90,000.00 airplanes expect from Vans? With the on coming of the new philosophy we see emerging at Vans with each new kit lets step back and think about a few things. When I say new philosophy I mean the, "all inclusive kit design". Where Vans would like you to build it their way. And you buy all the sub kits from them including Engine, Avionics, interior, and wiring harness . I can see where this will increase safety as well as increase more competed kits. Also it will bring in more first time builders. Which in turn increases more sales of aircraft for Vans. As builders we are witnessing Vans Aircraft evolve into a new larger company, no longer just a cottage kit manufacture but now moving into the big time possibly selling more planes than Cirrus. RV4, RV6, RV7, RV8, RV9, RV10, RV12, in agreement with another company factory built RV12s and now the RV14. My crystal ball estimates with a global market maybe 6 to 7 new kits or more a day are ordered.
In April 2008 Vans released the first wing sub kit for the RV12, an all inclusive kit including everything you need to complete and fly the airplane at a price of about $67,500.00. Around 200 kits have been completed and are now flying. Serial numbers are over 700. Now we begin the RV14, serial numbers are somewhere past 30 and counting. Estimated cost for a completed kit around $90,000.00. When I compare this cost to other things in life where I have spent this kind of money I would have demanded a very high level of customer service, is it wrong for me the want it on this new kit?
I think their airframe support is par none. But I want support on the avionics and the engine. Here is my customer service wish list.
1 Digitized plans as well as printed ones.
2 A faster response to a faxed in order for a new kit, email followed by the postcard with an estimated delivery date followed by another email with a tracking number when it is shipped.
3 A separate phone tree tech support line for avionics as well as engine.
4 A revision bar on each new revised page to show what has changed on that page.
Feel free to add to my list or shoot me down if I'm asking to much!
I have my body armor on so fire away!:rolleyes:
 
OK, I'm a 12 builder and this is a 14 thread, but:

1. Agreed. They already publish pdf updates on-line, so a CD with the complete plans for each sub-kit would be useful although not essential.
2. Living this far from the factory, I have no complaints with their present level of service. It's pretty good.
3. Haven't ever used phone support, but email response to the few queries I've had has always been quick. Agree that engine and avionics support could be improved for 12/14 type integrated kits, or at least better liaison by Vans with the OEM's. Sometimes interface issues can fall through the cracks - like the Rotax engine mount cap screws working loose on the 12. Both Vans and Rotax seemed to take a back seat on that one.
4. Yes - standard engineering practice 101.

Looking at it another way, Van's decision to offer such a high level of integration with the new kits is probably the biggest improvement in customer service they could have made.
 
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There is only one flying example and design work is not finished on all the other stuff you want.

What you want is not free and will cost more than most homebuilders are willing to pay.

To get Avionics support like you want, you are going to have to pay Certificated airplane prices or more and no one person will be able to answer all the questions on the options that you picked. As homebuilders, we do our own research and teach ourselves because most of the time, we are at the cutting edge of technology and no one or very few have done what we have done.

How are you going to get info on engine options when only one aircraft has been built and only one engine has been installed in it so far.

Are you willing to PAY an Engineer and his staff to get all this info you want? In the past, the homebuilder does his own research. IF he wants all the stuff you are asking for, he goes and buys a certificated airplane. (or someone elses homebuilt.)

I for one do not want Van's or expect to get what you are asking for from Van's Aircraft. The prices of their kits would quadraple to give what you are asking for.

Better start looking at buying a flying airplane. What you are asking for does not exist in the homebuilders kit world.

The RV-12 is an LSA or E-LSA aircraft and that falls under a different set of regulations than what the RV-14 falls under.
 
I would like to know the size and weight of each kit subsection so I can plan on how to handle each crate when it comes in.
 
Even though Van's offers plug and play options for avionics to make wiring more convenient, the primary mission of their techs should be airframe support because nobody else is the expert on that.

If you choose GRT avionics for your RV-14, call us with your questions, and we will be glad to help you. We are RV builders too.
 
The guys that built old RV3's, 4's, and 6's are laughing their heads off.

Randy
8A

You got that right!!

The time spent (wasted?) on polling about customer service could be better spent on researching the decisions and options needed to build the plane. The current kits and customer service are already far beyond what a builder needs to complete a safe aircraft. :)
 
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Yeah, I want it now and cheaper too!......seems to be alot of that in life these days.

I support Vans current business model. They supply a great kit and support for all of them(even the 30yr old design). If a builder wants to deviate from the supplied or recommended kit, they have always been free to do so.


BTW-I went to the Chevy dealer and tried to order a 67 RS/SS Camero, but wanted it with a new 400hp FI motor and 6spd....turns out they don't support 40 yr old cars. ;)
 
As builders we are witnessing Vans Aircraft evolve into a new larger company, no longer just a cottage kit manufacture but now moving into the big time possibly selling more planes than Cirrus.

No disrespect John, but I think that statement is about 12 years too late! When Van's built their new facility at Aurora they were already well past "cottage kit manufacture".
 
Too Many Options

I built an -8A with a new Aerosport IO360, an AFS 4500, a TruTrak ADI2, a Garmin 396, B&C Alternator and used Stark to wire the panel. Vans supplied superb customer service regarding the airframe, but I did not expect them to answer questions about the engine or avionics. Aerosprt, AFS, TruTrak, B&C and Stein were always there for specialized questions.

You don't need a one-stop shop - there are too many options.
 
I built an -8A with a new Aerosport IO360, an AFS 4500, a TruTrak ADI2, a Garmin 396, B&C Alternator and used Stark to wire the panel. Vans supplied superb customer service regarding the airframe, but I did not expect them to answer questions about the engine or avionics. Aerosprt, AFS, TruTrak, B&C and Stein were always there for specialized questions.

You don't need a one-stop shop - there are too many options.

Totally agree that Van can not possible keep up with the options and variations to be an expert. Nor do I expect them to.

There is a one-top place to get the answer and it is this Forum.
Pay your $25 and ask all the questions you want. There is someone that will know the answer.
 
Revisions to drawings

"4 A revision bar on each new revised page to show what has changed on that page."
Or a web page that has all the pages in the assembly manual dedicated to that particular plane that shows all the revisions on a revision bar for each page. In other words, look up the page in question and see if the same as what you have. That way you know is is the latest drawing.
Erik
 
This ain't IKEA.

Yes, they are expanding to a new market, but not the market you describe.

Tim
 
You got that right!!

The time spent (wasted?) on polling about customer service could be better spent on researching the decisions and options needed to build the plane. The current kits and customer service are already far beyond what a builder needs to complete a safe aircraft. :)

The RV-14 is to be a all inclusive kit. So what research and decisions do I need to make? I'll just be adding options. The RV-14 is a new approach by Van's in the aircraft kit market and i'm happy they are doing it. The success of the RV-12 proves their concept. I would like a better customer experience. I want Van's to give me the information and not make me pull it from them.;)
 
The RV-14 is to be a all inclusive kit. So what research and decisions do I need to make? I'll just be adding options. The RV-14 is a new approach by Van's in the aircraft kit market and i'm happy they are doing it. The success of the RV-12 proves their concept. I would like a better customer experience. I want Van's to give me the information and not make me pull it from them.;)

What problems with customer experience have you had with Vans so far in the course of building your RV-14? What info are you having to pull from Vans?

And.......check back with us as you are finishing your project and tell us how you didn't need to do any research or make decisions in the course of building your plane. I don't think there are many RV-12 builders who could make that claim...and the -14 ain't no E-LSA. :)

You will have a great aircraft in the RV-14, we look forward to updates on your project as it takes shape.
 
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Some of you seem to be missing the point here.

A bunch of "old school" kit builders are nay-saying a legitimate point here, I think some of you are missing it.

Assuming the kit is going to be all plug-and-play if you choose to build it "their way", then there aren't options to research. There aren't too many choices for them to maintain expertise on. There is the standard "plug-and-play" set up, and it is all supposed to work. This is part of the appeal, at least to some, that might otherwise have been leary of jumping into the kit building world.

So, I actually agree with the OP - in this case, they really should have on-call experts to support their kits with all kinds of expertise.

When I started, I wasn't concerned about building the airframe. I can build anything. But I had never done any firewall forward work, and I was very concerned about how to get info on what good custom and practice, good features and approaches. I did the research, and I enjoyed it. But I can understand how many folks might never decide to build, just because they don't know how to do stuff like wiring and FWF installation.

To an extent, those folks are the target market for the new kits. Us old-school guys are happy and comfortable rolling our own (and I count myself among those now that I've done it once and will do it again).
So it seems to me that us old-school folks shouldn't really be responding with "the customer service is fine the way it is, you are asking too much", because it is fine for us, but may not be for the new builders.

And as I said at the beginning, if you are going to market a bunch of plug-and-play assemblies, they better fit together and work. It's like, we want a Mac, not a DOS machine;)

As far as revision blocks on drawings, my RV-8 drawings have those. So I expect that all Van's drawings do. But the problem with paper drawings is that just because you can see the revision level of your drawing, you don't know that it is the current revision level. In the past, it has been trusted that it is the appropriate revision level for YOUR kit. But that may no longer be the case. It does seem like a good addition to their website, in the same section as the service bulletins, to have a drawing index with the "current" revision level of each drawing.
 
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What problems with customer experience have you had with Vans so far in the course of building your RV-14? What info are you having to pull from Vans?

And.......check back with us as you are finishing your project and tell us how you didn't need to do any research or make decisions in the course of building your plane. I don't think there are many RV-12 builders who could make that claim...and the -14 ain't no E-LSA. :)

You will have a great aircraft in the RV-14, we look forward to updates on your project as it takes shape.

The problems are:
No notice of ship date.
No estimated cost of shipping.
No notice of shipment arrival date.
No notice of crate sizes or weights.
No notice of electronic plans or paper plans. (RV-14 appears to have only electronic plans, this is not a bad thing but it would be nice to know) I did query them earlier if plans would be available digitally and yes they are.
No notice Van's billed my credit card for the balance of payment.

I just started my build.

Because I helped build a 12 and the only decisions that needed to be made were what options to add and the color. I'm saying Vans needs to step up their customer service. If Vans sells the part they need to service the part or make arrangements for the vender to service it. On the 12 Vans played things off on the vender and the vender then put it back on Vans while we waited for them to decide who was responsible for the problem. I believe the 14 will be a great plane that is why I bought one. I just don't want to have the problems we had on the 12 to reappear on the 14.
 
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Early adopters get what they ask for

As far as the shipping notifications, I agree that it would be nice if that was handled better. For many of the rest of these concerns...exactly what were you thinking you would get on these things when you were itching to pull the trigger and get the lowest possible serial number of the new model? This is my first time through this but I'm seeing the level of support I expected. Vans staff has been great every time I've called or emailed with a question.

Box Sizes: Look at the other models and estimate...I used RV9 for planning...it's got a longer wing
Notice of final Billing: Don't check the box that gives them permission to draft at will
Ship Date: Ask them when they call for your final payment...or just call and ask them...

Maybe this first time builder is just too old-school or something but I don't see a huge problem here.
 
As far as revision blocks on drawings, my RV-8 drawings have those. So I expect that all Van's drawings do. But the problem with paper drawings is that just because you can see the revision level of your drawing, you don't know that it is the current revision level. In the past, it has been trusted that it is the appropriate revision level for YOUR kit. But that may no longer be the case. It does seem like a good addition to their website, in the same section as the service bulletins, to have a drawing index with the "current" revision level of each drawing.

Steve, the problem is that the changes on the drawing are not flagged, clouded, described or otherwise highlighted. That means you have to do a line by line, figure by figure comparison to find out what's different. That's simply not good enough. Vans do explain that if you have already built to an earlier revision of a drawing, then you can usually disregard a later revision of the same drawing.
 
The problems are:
No notice of ship date.
No estimated cost of shipping.
No notice of shipment arrival date.
No notice of crate sizes or weights.
No notice of electronic plans or paper plans. (RV-14 appears to have only electronic plans, this is not a bad thing but it would be nice to know) I did query them earlier if plans would be available digitally and yes they are.
No notice Van's billed my credit card for the balance of payment.

I just started my build.

Because I helped build a 12 and the only decisions that needed to be made were what options to add and the color. I'm saying Vans needs to step up their customer service. If Vans sells the part they need to service the part or make arrangements for the vender to service it. On the 12 Vans played things off on the vender and the vender then put it back on Vans while we waited for them to decide who was responsible for the problem. I believe the 14 will be a great plane that is why I bought one. I just don't want to have the problems we had on the 12 to reappear on the 14.

Shouldn't we at least give Vans the chance to get a complete RV-14 kit out the door before we start complaining about customer support?

Some are demanding the full service package before a single complete customer plane has shipped. You are a very early adopters....if these issues remain after full production is in place and all the kits are going out the door then it will be time to address them.

RV-14 builders will receive the customer service needed once the RV-14 is fully ramped up. Vans wouldn't be the huge success they are now if this was not the case.

Sorry to sound like a cheerleader, but..........

By the way, some happy RV-14 builders in this thread:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=93824
 
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Shouldn't we at least give Vans the chance to get a complete RV-14 kit out the door before we start complaining about customer support?

Some are demanding the full service package before a single complete customer plane has shipped. You are a very early adopters....if these issues remain after full production is in place and all the kits are going out the door then it will be time to address them.

RV-14 builders will receive the customer service needed once the RV-14 is fully ramped up. Vans wouldn't be the huge success they are now if this was not the case.

Sorry to sound like a cheerleader, but..........

By the way, some happy RV-14 builders in this thread:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=93824

Some are totally missing the point. Van's is a great company who provides a world class product. I'm not complaining about the product, i'm suggesting how to improve the builder experience.
I should not have to call and ask what my order status is or call for any of the basic items. It should be open and available to me on their web site. Lets help Van's get to the next level of kit plane manufacturing.
 
I guess I never even thought of those things.

Once I received the first kit, the rest really didn't matter since I ordered them before I needed them.
I assume:
Van's is doing their best to get the kits out as fast as they can.
Van's is finding the best/cheapest/reliable shipping method.

As for the complete/integrated kit with avionics, FWF, ect... it is still an option on the -14.

Plus with the internet and builders across the US, I think I called Van's 2 or 3 times over the build of two airplanes (10 and 12).

Sure, I am a believer in continuous and relentless improvement. Unfortunately, Van's has little competition and second place isn't even close to the quality, variety and performance of their kit. Remember, the second most popular kit company right now is Sonex(based on # of units sold). I don't think they do much better.

I also find Van's very responsive. Let them know what bothers you and see if they can come up with a tracking/update section on the website that uses your builder number to keep track of what you ordered, where it is in the que, estimated ship date and cost and size/weight of package. It might not take priority today but down the road maybe they will add something like that.

The truth is that Van's is already doing this and making things better and I think they are putting their resources on the most important things. Like others have said, the early -3 and -4 builders out there are laughing at this because of how incredible the kits have become. I tell everyone the -12 practically builds itself once you open the box compared to the -10. Van's does a great job looking at the total value stream from idea, manufacturing of the kit, though building, flying and repair and does great at improving the "pain" points.

I guess another question I would ask is, If Van's had 100 hours of improvement capacity, what would you want them to do?

-Pre-dimpled skins?
-zero cut or sand wingtips/cowl/wheel pants/fairings?
-debur/prime option for all components?
-wiring kits for all major EFIS/Avionics companies?
-better tracking and shipping / Customer Service
-?????????

I think most of us live and build our planes around others like us. At my airport there is at least 12 RV's with dozens more around us. And guys like Tim Olson (for the -10 and now -14) are walking and talking databases with endless knowledge or at least offer the direction to ask our question. So if you don't have that network I can see why customer service might become your #1.

I look forward to the next great improvement from Van's, because I know it is coming.
 
Some are totally missing the point. Van's is a great company who provides a world class product. I'm not complaining about the product, i'm suggesting how to improve the builder experience.
I should not have to call and ask what my order status is or call for any of the basic items. It should be open and available to me on their web site. Lets help Van's get to the next level of kit plane manufacturing.

And if those of us who have been in the RV community for multiple years (and planes) are totally missing the point......the question begs to be asked.....is "the point" valid?? :)

I've said too much already--"my point" is that builders would be best served by taking advantage of what Vans offers today and getting on with their project instead of worrying about trying to squeeze Vans through a particular marketing template.

Guess I'm too bone-headed (after looking at the incredible RV-14) to understand what the "next level of kit plane manufacturing" really involves....
 
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Amour Has a few dents but Im ready for some more baby!

Now that I have some dents in my amour let me add a few things to this thread I started. I didn?t start this thread to bash Vans! I started it so through the process of free speech on the form we as builders new and old could express some thoughts in a professional manner in regards to the changing of the type of kits and customer service at Vans. At the end of the day as this poll progresses Ill be the first to admit that it reveals that most builders are satisfied with the customer service at Vans. Let?s think of it another way so we are clear on one thing!:)

Do I think the United States of America is the greatest country on earth to live?
Yes I do! But I think there are a few things that could be better!:D
Do I think Vans Aircraft is the Best Kit Plane Company on the Earth?
Yes I do! But I think there are a few things that they could do better in regards to customer service!;)

Now let me see if I can hit a few highlights from comments I have seen so Far on this thread.:rolleyes:

Sam Thanks for reminding me my dues are pay.:D

If I buy a new $30,000.00 car and plan on keeping it for ten years I would probably buy the extended warranty or yes if it was offered I would probably buy the extra customer service on a $90,000.00 plane if it was offered. It?s done every day when you go into a store you are offered an extended warranty on just about everything you buy. You would be very surprised how many RV12 build videos are be sold right now to those builders.

Once again I?m talking about buying an all inclusive kit where there are no decisions to be made and very few options offered except which colors to paint it or use in the interior.

Will old schools guys still build it their way? You bet they will but I predict that most new builders will not choose to do this. Stats on the RV12 will bear this out. This is a new world order men and the profile of the new Kit builder is a changing!

Which market are they expanding into? You make the call. Oh look here is one, through a another Company they are now offering Factory built RV12s obviously this will attract new customer who are not Kit plane builders at all.

This thread is not conclusive to the RV14.

Here is an example of a question that might occur. Mr Dynon Tech, I have a sensor problem can you help me? Dynon Tech,How is your Skyview wired? Customer, I don?t know because on my RV14 there is a Proprietary Vans Built Switch Panel that it is plugged into. Dynon Tech, Sorry can?t help you out cause even though that?s definitely our product(think about how many D-180s and now Skyviews will go into the over 700 serial numbers issued RV12 Kits) offered in the all inclusive kit we don?t have to wiring diagram of that switch panel either. :eek:

Maybe we could do it this way. Vans puts out for bid to the avionics companies that they are looking for a Avionics package to put into their new inclusive RV14 Kit. We predict that over 500 of these packages will be sold in the next 10 years. Along with this we want free tech support during installation of you product for our builders. Furthermore in support of this you will be required to sign a non- disclosure/use contract on our wiring diagram in the airplane.
Now take the same paragraph and insert the words Lycoming/Textron Inc.
Will they do it, who knows but it wouldn?t hurt to try. :confused:
If all else fails maybe yes they can charge customers for this convenience if they so choose. Again everybody else is doing it. :mad:

Ok ,I've knocked out the dents in my amour and am ready for another round.
All Hail to the freedom of the Word!
 
The guys that built old RV3's, 4's, and 6's are laughing their heads off.

so were the dinosaurs. Jetguy is correct, this is not an attack on Van's...it is a question about what to expect from a manufacturer in trade for your money. To say you just need to get to building and let the manufacturer do his thing is nothing but "homerism".

In this day and age where people are abandoning land lines for cell phones and not for talking but for texting....Van's needs to join the 20th century with their customer service. But they don't have to...so they don't. They obviously sell all they want. If they wanted more business they could market their product better but they are satisfied with what they have (no competition?) so why should they.
 
The guys that built old RV3's, 4's, and 6's are laughing their heads off.

so were the dinosaurs. Jetguy is correct, this is not an attack on Van's...it is a question about what to expect from a manufacturer in trade for your money. To say you just need to get to building and let the manufacturer do his thing is nothing but "homerism".

In this day and age where people are abandoning land lines for cell phones and not for talking but for texting....Van's needs to join the 20th century with their customer service. But they don't have to...so they don't. They obviously sell all they want. If they wanted more business they could market their product better but they are satisfied with what they have (no competition?) so why should they.

I admitted to being boneheaded, but now I find out that I'm a dinosaur and a homer (had to look that one up...means blindly devoted to your home team....or something like that.....).

Guess I'll just slink back into my dinosaur lair, kick around a few bones and try not to say anything nice about Vans. Time to turn the Vans universe over to the new guys with all the answers to marketing in the current world. Maybe Vans will get this figured out eventually. ;)

Don't know how in the world I ever managed to get my plane built in the "dark ages"....... :)
 
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YMMV...

I love the Van's kits. Especially the newer ones. If I could have gotten financing for the RV-14 I'd be building that. What a plane! And the building process is the way I like it, exactly what I'd be looking for. Even though I started the 9, the 12/14 are laid out so I don't have to rely on my inexperience to do something as complex or as life threating/saving as building a plane. I mean... holy cow, just thinking about building a plane that you are going to put you and your family in and go off to explore the world is a little scary! Do I want everything laid out? H**l yes! Offering more models like the 12 and 14, is the safest thing to do - for everyone!

As I told Van's - something’s I do really well and others...well I hire people that know what they're doing. Building a plane, I have no experience in. I want the hand-holding. I want to see every step laid out and if there is repetition to something then put it in the plan steps. If I see I'll do it. Don't rely on me to figure out that I need to read something in chapter 3 and apply it to something I'm doing in chapter 7. Give it all to me step by step. I don't build or maintain planes for a living or even a passion (yet). I want to fly and Van's gives the best and safest way to get there.

Instead of buying something 40 years old, or even 30 years old I get the best of the new! Avionics that are incredible, an engine that isn't tired out and on its second or third leg. For those doing anything but the 12 a choice of interiors that vary from VW to BMW. Wow!

If I was in the nit picking mode I could say that I think an area that Van's could improve on is their web site. It could use a serious professional updating to include, kit/shipping info as well as their catalog on line. More of a web app setup than a static bunch of pages. I think the links to builder web sites could be greatly enhanced.

However, I will say that I don't see talking to a real human as a downside. In my joy and excitement of ordering a kit I must of bugged Barb to death but she was more than helpful and professional. Every time I called I received the answers I was looking for and she went out of her way to make sure that happened. I called enough that when she answered the phone she started with "Hi Bob...". The folks at Vans's are great! The direction they're heading in kit design is awesome. Thank you to everyone at Van's!

Anything can be improved, but is it value-added to them or the customer?

The cost and time to have one or more people that have to be trained on the various systems that Van's doesn't build or design and is constantly being updated doesn't make a lot of sense.

Van's support their stuff and you'll end up getting better support from the manufacture that has staff trained on their systems, than you ever will from a third party. That's just the nature of the beast.

It doesn't make any sense to me for Van's to step outside of their core values and try to be something they're not. They are not a call center supporting Dynon, Lycoming or anything else. They do an excellent job within their core values of designing great airplanes that thousands of people love to fly. They know them inside out. Try calling Dynon and finding out about a rib that you stuck an extra rivet in just because you're sticking a Dynon system in your XB-70sRG. It doesn't make sense to do that and frankly even if they did I'd be happier getting the info straight from the manufacture. In this case Van's or in other cases Dynon or whoever.

BTW, these are just some thoughts and I'm not meaning to slam the idea or direction of the thread...just trying to think my way through it.

Bob
 
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Ah yes, the plans revision thing againnnnnn

I know that showing the changes on the revised plans pages has been a good business practice since the beginning of 'plans'. Why not do this for us, Van's? That would be helpful and would save us a lot of time trying to figure out what changed and when.

And as long as I'm suggesting improvements, I suggest that Van's find and hire a savvy computer kid to upgrade all of Van's computer/electronics presence. Maybe an 'intern'?

I haven't looked in a while but the last time I looked at 'what's new' at Van's, that page was at least two years old. Surely, someone at Van's must have a kid who could greatly improve Van's electronic presence. That's really not a laughing matter - just good business sense.
 
Dynon has a forum that THEY run and moderate. If you ask a question on the forum, a Dynon tech will answer it. So others questions/answers can be seen. This is a good idea that Vans should consider. With better tagging and search capability than the typical forum (example:show me all q/a about wings and wiring) this could leverage their tech support manpower. Easier to point to the answer than answer the same question a dozen times. BTW the Dynon forum also has company threads on upcoming revisions, products, wish lists and customer feedback and they actually ANSWER questions on those pretty darn openly! Impressive.
 
On April 15th, I've ordered the -14 wing kit. I wanted to take advantage of the SNF prices. As of today, I have no clue if my order is being processed at all. I guess so. I trust they are.

I'd like to say that I support John's initiative for starting that poll. Yes I agree that Van's kits are notorious as being the most popular and that the RV's are among one of the best if not the utmost best kit airplane you could find on the market however I would expect a bit more diligence on how my money is handled and what is the fate of my future airplane subkit. I don't think this is unreasonable.

As I understand, it seems that now we have access to a digitized form of the shop drawings. Provided that you ask for them. And I will because from my perspective digitized drawings are extremely useful. Well I'm getting older every day and it helps being able to "zoom in". It allows to see details you may simply overlook if seen at normal scale. Trust me on that. I'm a professional engineer having over 25 years experience and having the ability to "zoom in" on a specific section of a given drawing is priceless.

From that same engineering point of view, drawings revision should never be taken lightly. And these drawings must show exactly what are the changes compared to the previous version. Letting the reader "guess" what they should be is opening the door to interpretation and this could be a show stopper. A really bad one. Again, from the little experience I'm having with Van's (I've been busy on a -9 empennage kit since a while) I too think they should improve they way they publish changes or their drawings.

Well, this is the price you have to pay when your are the best. Staying on top is imposing you much more pressure than to the average one. Ever been in a race? Being the first is giving only 2 choices; loose ground or keep it up. I vote that Van should improve a bit to stay in front.
 
I thought being a "homer" involved jelly donuts:D

When I was building, a lot of previous builders would look at the quickbuild 7A and shake their head and start the "...when I was building, we had to..." and I would tease them by asking where they mined the bauxite. The dark side to these kinds of discussions were when they looked at my EFIS and would say "what do you need that for?" I finally figured out the right answer: "what do you NEED an airplane for? You don't, but you WANT it so you built it the way you wanted it"

I think the questions and the poll are simply about what some people want and how many want it that way. At its simplest it is third party market research for Vans and they can do with it what THEY want.

As for me, I'm enjoying being a dinosaur old timer who had to crawl uphill through snow 5 miles each way, all while eating jelly donuts:D
 
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