What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Seeing in the Dark

Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
There is no doubt that an engine-out in a single at night is objectively more dangerous than in the daylight. Unless you happen to be on top of a lighted airport, knowing what you are going to find when you meet the earth is a bit of a dice roll. Synthetic Vision is a big help in keeping you out of the big rocks of course, but wouldn’t it be nice to actually SEE a mountain clearing, a large field, or a country road? How about if you pick out a nice unlighted runway shown on your EFIS – but it happens to be a night-time party spot for deer or wild horses? They aren’t going to show up in the computer models! What you need is a way to see in the dark…

I have been flying recently with just such a way – a FLIR pod (Forward Looking InfraRed) that is offered by Grand Rapids Technology, with the video displayed on the Hx (and now Hxr) screen with flight data overlaid. It looks for all the world like what you might see on a Predator video on the evening news. The Pod mounts to an inspection cover under the wing of the RV, and adds no noticeable drag or yaw moment. The wiring is simple, and a little video converter turns the composite video into a USB data stream that feeds into the GRT EFIS. GRT is needing to do some tweaks right now to the video interface because the folks that build the converter changed something, which means GRT needs to do some re-coding….so they told me to say that they can’t fill orders for it immediately – but they are hoping to make it a priority. They’ve actually had the FLIR pod for a couple of years, pretty much as long as the Hx has been around, and had video capability….they just haven’t been marketing it much. I, for one, think they should!

P1020062.JPG


P1010961.JPG


I posted two videos to YouTube that we shot out at Big Bear Lake during the Thanksgiving timeframe. They say a lot more about what this thing can do than any words I can use! Make sure that you select the highest quality video – 720p is what I was able to see – that makes the video crisp.

The first is a video of the just the FLIR screen through about 140 degrees of turn and then back the other way. The location is just west of the Big Bear Lake Dam, and the view sweeps from southwest to near north and then back. You can see Lake Arrowhead near the end, just before the LA Basin comes into view. I shot this with the camera held at my chest while Louise flew from the back seat – see how well she was able to hold altitude, at night, with no view of the panel!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM-KkjmcljQ


And this one is a left-hand traffic pattern, low approach, and climb-out at Big Bear Lake, runway 26. It was shot shortly after sunset and includes a view of both the Synthetic Vision screen, FLIR Screen, and out the window (over the glare shield) all at the same time. It starts late on downwind – you might want to bring up the area on Google earth to familiarize yourself with the terrain. On downwind, you can see a flat narrow valley on the FLIR out in the distance. In the turn to base, that valley and a dry lakebed to the east of Big Bear is clearly visible. HiTS is enabled on the Synthetic Vision screen and was used for glide slope reference. Note that on short final, you can see the runway markings on the FLIR - it is very readable! (The ear tube on my Halo gets in the way at one point – sorry!) This was shot by Louise holding the camera over my shoulder from the back seat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IxBaoKR3A0

Necessary for flight? No, of course not....but it does mitigate some risk of night and low weather operations. Another way to mitigate those risks is not to fly in those conditions of course. The FLIR simply adds to the toolbox for those who want a little bit more margin.


Enjoy!

Paul
 
Last edited:
I have been flying recently with just such a way ? a FLIR pod (Forward Looking InfraRed) that is offered by Grand Rapids Technology, with the video displayed on the Hx (and now Hxr) screen with flight data overlaid.

Neat device Paul!

How conformal is the IR image with the EFIS pitch ladder and heading scale?
 
This is seriously a major step forward for us night flyers.

PD, great work and I cant think of anyone better for them to be working with.

Cirrus have a similar system more for taxi movements I think. But this is better.

Bravo GRT.
 
Very interesting. I am just starting to install an HX in my 9A. I have already decided no more extras until I am flying but I can sure see where FLIR has an application in night flying. Thanks for the report.
 
That is a very cool advancement. Had I not already gone Garmin, this may very well have tipped me the other way. I think that answers your question about should they market it more aggressively.

Edit - after a few minutes of thought about my planes intended mission and my love of night flying, this option would have put me in the HX camp. They should market it very aggressively and Garmin should get on this immediately. IMHO
 
Last edited:
My big question is How Much? I do not see it listed on their web site.

Hi Gary,

FLIR for the Horizon EFIS has been around since 2009, but it wasn't marketed very well, so most people don't know about it. There are several units out there flying. Some time ago, the manufacturer of the video adapter changed their software and effectively killed it for this application, so we are going to write our own. (Paul has an older unit on the Valkyrie.) When that's done and we're ready to sell the kits, I'll create a FLIR page with pricing, installation instructions and videos on the GRT website. The system originally ran about $4500-- about a third the cost of similar certified systems. Not cheap, but worth it for people who fly a lot at night.

Now that I've seen today's front page, FLIR will probably move up a few spots on our software engineer's priority list. :eek:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Don't get too carried away....support for the video is one thing but these FLIR cameras tend to be quite pricey....Even the cheap ones can be several thousand dollars. I have no idea what this unit will run however.

EDIT: Katie beat me to it...$4500 was the old system's price...
 
Last edited:
Very Cool

Sure would be nice for those trees at the approach end of runway 14 at our airpark. Please keep the info coming Paul and GRT!
 
I'd make sure you fully understand the environmental limitations of the FLIR unit before spending the $. Temperature, humidty have a huge impact. To be useful you'd need the environmental performance prediction charts along with the unit so you can be reasonably sure the conditions the night you intend to fly will actually allow use of the FLIR. If the vendor cannot provide this data then the unit is a toy and shouldn't be relied upon.

4000+ hours of operational FLIR experiance.

Ken
 
FLIR Answers....

Several Price questions – Glad that Katie jumped in! When you consider that only a couple of years ago you’d see press releases answering FLIR units for business aircraft priced in the six figures…this is hard to beat!

Kevin’s question on conforming to the pitch ladder – in these pictures and video, the image is a little off – the FLIR horizon isn’t perfect with the virtual horizon. That just has to do with camera pointing, and I hadn’t fine-tuned it to yet (we only got it operational our last day at Big Bear, and wanted to fly to get the images rather than tweak) . A little tinkering should make it right on.

“Cool” comments – yes, definitely!! Make sure to remember to keep your eyes outside and/or have a safety pilot in VFR – it is mesmerizing.

“Taxi Camera” – Oh yes – the taxiway markings standout very well – you could EASILY taxi around a marked airport with a hood on (and a safety pilot of course) using nothing but the FLIR. It is that clear.

“Trees at the end of the Runway…” – yes, definitely – we have the same thing at our home field, and the trees are invisible in the dark to the naked eye – but stand out nicely on the FLIR!

"Understanding the Limitations" - Ken has this exactly right - the training and learning curve should not be ignored, as well as the limitations. For instance, you can't see through a cloud - the cloud is cold and dark. Water and cool fields at night are dark - trees are brighter. This is an advanced pilot tool, and will have to be treated as such.

Paul
 
Last edited:
I absolutely love this stuff!

I'm a self proclaimed GPS/synthetic vision fanatic, who constantly battles with those, who feel that VOR nav is just fine. :eek:

I live in a rugged mountainous area, and have poured over decades worth of CFIT (controlled flight into terrain) accidents, since I became highly interested, when a United Airline's DC-8 cargo jet flew directly into the mountain above my home (1977). GPS/synthetic vision, and the enhancement of night vision, is just so much better than following needles........period!

Thanks for the writeup. It's good to have material like this, to show others when required.

L.Adamson
 
This would be a very good backup for night flying. In addition to learning its peculiarities (cold fields, clouds, etc), one has to remember that with a fixed camera, one is limited to where the aircraft happens to be pointing. Therefore, one might not be aware that there is a perfectly good field just over and behind one's shoulder. A miniature flir camera on a miniature pan-tilt mount driven by head movements or thumbstick might be an improvement. Then again, quickly donning on a pair of NVG goggles might be even better.
 
Right to Fly (with equipment of choice)

I absolutely love this stuff!
L.Adamson

It still amazes me this equipment is available, affordable and (we) can use it.

Is it safer? The choice is yours.

For me, I like to have all the tools in the box because the only tool for the job at hand is the right one.



Fly safe and have fun,

Carlos Fernandez
International Sales
GRT Avionics
...above, beyond
 
Last edited:
As others have exclaimed ...

...this is incredibly exciting. I had no idea this kind of technology was available to us mortals ... though certainly at notable cost. As a happy GRT owner/flyer, this is all the more exciting. :D
 
I believe this is priced accordingly. Any way you look at it, FLiR is not going to be cheap- but it's not a cheap solution either, anything you provide that would cut costs I probably wouldn't rely on. Some of you guys would fly with an iPhone app feeding your EFIS if it were possible
 
I'm also installing the FLIR system in my 7. Here is a link to the company that sells the FLIR camera system. http://www.navtv.com/product.php?ProductID=85 They are between $2500-3500 depending on whether or not you get the basic (black and white) or full featured (colored) unit. It's very nice that GRT and MGL EFIS's have a "video in" feature. If you have a Garmin like I do (G3X), you'll need a separate monitor to be able to view the video feed and to see what the camera is seeing. It sure would be nice if Garmin also had a "video in" feature! I'm either going to use a basic little monitor like the kind that you might have in the back of the headrest of your car that the kids use to watch DVD's on, or the I-Fly-720 which has a "video in" feature. With either type of monitor, it can be something that's mobile and can quickly be connected in a situation where you think you'll need it. BTW, Chris, at "Bone Head" makes a very nice carbon fiber FLIR camera mount http://www.boneheadcomposites.com/m8/711--Aviation FLIR Camera Housing.html
 
mounting

I wonder if mounting it on a helmet so that it looks in same direction would be better?
 
Luminating...

What you need is a way to see in the dark…

Paul,
Exactly what our Military Commanders figured out hundreds of years ago. Only in the last 40 years has the technology finally been honed to an unsurpassed advantage by our Military. When you spend hundreds of hours flying at night with NVG/FLIR capability and see it's real merits, I felt literally in the dark in my own airplane without them. Now all you need are affordable aviation NVG's combined with your FLIR for a truly unsurpassed night-time capability. All this literally reinvented US Night Fighter Tactics. Like GPS, Fly-To Boxes, Heads Up displays, UAV's and DAFIF terrain databases, Military technology eventually filters down to the civilian world, for the good. I for one am very glad to see it. When the affordability reaches mass appeal, you won't leave home without it!

Pretty soon RV dudes will be chatting about Lumens, Blooming, Percent moon illumination and Light amplification...:)

V/R
Smokey
Dues gladly paid in Iraq...
Galdly paid to DR anyway...
 
Last edited:
I wonder if mounting it on a helmet so that it looks in same direction would be better?

I think it would lead to total confusion if you were trying to look at it on a screen fixed to the panel, and the camera was moving around. This is sort of like flying with a periscope, or a small window - you see where the airplane is going. If you want a presentation of where you are looking, you'd need a display that moved with your head - night vision goggles, essentially.

What makes this great on the EFIS is that you can combine the image with EFIS data, so all you need is in one place - it's like a HUD (not just straight through the windscreen).
 
Game Changer...

Paul,
The movable FLIR goes where you point it, similar to a rifle scope. You have the option to fix it forward or track a target on the ground. Of course, tying it with your EFIS is a neat capability. Regardless, it's a huge step forward in technology and safety for GA. Thanks for sharing, and testing in your airplane.

Needless to say, I want one...

V/R
Smokey
 
Last edited:
I wonder if mounting it on a helmet so that it looks in same direction would be better?

That won't work. The camera lens has to be exposed to the elements, so it wouldn't work inside the cockpit....at least that's what the company told me.
 
Is this just an near-IR camera or a thermal imager? If it is a thermal imager it will be pricey and the resolution is likely to be poor, and you might not understand what you see when using it.

If it is a near-IR camera then you still need a source of light to see with it. Are there specs somewhere on what wavelength light it's sensitive to and its overall sensitivity? It doesn't seem like this is a substitute for NV gear.
 
That won't work. The camera lens has to be exposed to the elements, so it wouldn't work inside the cockpit....at least that's what the company told me.

This is an excellent point and one that sort of caused the previous generations of FLIR cameras for aircraft to be of limited popularity (because this very technology has been displayed on EFISes by Garmin, AFS, MGL and GRT for at least a couple years now - so that part is nothing new at all). That said, the packaging, size and price of the external componetry is getting to the point that it may be a better option now, though I'm still fairly certain that a lot of folks looking at these don't really understand what the "camera's" capabilities are as far as what it'll see and show you. It's already been said that it can't see through clouds, it can't see through a plexiglass window at this point (therefore no mounting it in a nice aerodynamic enclosure), and the lenses need to be exposed to the elemtns (and bugs and garbage, etc..).

These are primarily temperature sensitive devices and shouldn't be confused with NV (which is sometimes an entirely different technology, or a combination of technologies). We shouldn't necessarily lump FLIR/Thermal imaging into IR cameras or NV cameras....though they all offer some sort of "night vision", they aren't necessarily the same. Not saying either of the various technologies are better or worse than the others, but just pointing out that it might not necessarily be the same thing you're thinking of when you see these pictures, vs what you see on TV, or see in a Military plane, or on a HUD in the high end Gulfstreams, etc..

Exciting for sure, and now that prices are creeping down I'm sure we'll see more and more adoption of them, but as stated before it's not new technology (on an EFIS or not)....just new to Paul! :)

I know a fellow at our local grass strip with trees on the end sure could've used something like this before his Cessna 150 and Whitetail deer collision!

Cheers,
Stein
 
mounting

I went back and read what Paul wrote and it looks like it will work from in the plane (I shot this with the camera held at my chest while Louise flew from the back seat ? see how well she was able to hold altitude, at night, with no view of the panel!) so a gimble from the top canopy might work with a joy stick while you look at screen. If anyone pat., this i want my half.
Bob
 
I went back and read what Paul wrote and it looks like it will work from in the plane (I shot this with the camera held at my chest while Louise flew from the back seat ? see how well she was able to hold altitude, at night, with no view of the panel!) so a gimble from the top canopy might work with a joy stick while you look at screen. If anyone pat., this i want my half.
Bob

I believe the camera that Paul was referring to was a normal video camera that captured the footage of what was appearing on his EFIS and panel. The Flir camera was likely mounted outside. Confused me for a minute as well...
erich
 
$4500.... :eek:

I take back what I said. That's just far too steep for a camera....I can't afford it...Stein already took my last dollar.

:)
 
There is no doubt that an engine-out in a single at night is objectively more dangerous than in the daylight. Unless you happen to be on top of a lighted airport, knowing what you are going to find when you meet the earth is a bit of a dice roll.

Found at Baseops.net : Engine Failure at night in a GA airplane: Turn on the landing light before impact, if you don't like what you see, turn it off :D

Seriously, this looks like a super cool system.
 
I believe the camera that Paul was referring to was a normal video camera that captured the footage of what was appearing on his EFIS and panel. The Flir camera was likely mounted outside. Confused me for a minute as well...
erich

Correct I was talking about holding the video camera to shoot pictures of the EFIS screen - the FLIR camera does not move, and is mounted under the wing.
 
This would be a very good backup for night flying. In addition to learning its peculiarities (cold fields, clouds, etc), one has to remember that with a fixed camera, one is limited to where the aircraft happens to be pointing. Therefore, one might not be aware that there is a perfectly good field just over and behind one's shoulder. A miniature flir camera on a miniature pan-tilt mount driven by head movements or thumbstick might be an improvement. Then again, quickly donning on a pair of NVG goggles might be even better.

I agree.. you can get a descent set of NVG's for about the same $ these days. You are not gonna get ANVS-9's but certainly a good enough and there exists an FAA instructor rating nowadays...

very useful device.
 
Hmmm...

Am I the only one that thinks this is exactly what Ken described. Just a super cool Toy.

Something to look at out of your own curitosity but not something to make flight decisions on?

Where I do believe it is important is landing on grass strips in the boonies where you can get deer (or for our end of the world Kangaroos) caught in landing lights with no way of seeing them other wise. That I think is useful.

But you have to ask yourself do I really NEED to be landing there in pitch black. Can I wait till tomorrow or leave early or later, Am I going to spend $4500 on the luxury of that once a month grass field landing I am going to do at 9:00pm because I stayed a little too long at my friends place.

I don't know, there is lots I can do with $4500 and its kind of a toy.

Not to say that I don't want one..of course I do!! but then again I would like a corvette too but I don't know if I need a 600HP car to sit in traffic most of the time.

Maybe this a "passion vs want" debate which means go buy it if it makes you smile.

Life is short
 
AC-130 gunships use IR/thermal cameras to shoot bad guys at night (for now), and I think our application would be similar, that is, we're not interested in looking through clouds or seeing 50 miles or whatever, just interested in staying away from trees near the runway or missing the trees during a night engine-out landing that's in reasonable terrain.
 
My concern would be someone focussing on the camera image and then crashing.

This sort of stuff needs high pilot standards, recency and so on. So like many things, I could really save your backside one day. But only if you can use it effectively. Just like SV.

It could lull you in and kill you easily too.

$4500, not as bad as I thought.
 
Flown thermal imaging projected onto a HUD in business jets.
Very very useful tool.
If this is even half as good as professional systems it is a huge step forward for general aviation.
At $4500 it is pretty reasonable considering the Enhanced Vis for a Gulfstream is north of a million. It's a fascinating idea and I hope they continue to develop the technology for light aircraft.
 
Flying in the dark

No one has asked me yet about what I am wearing in my Avitar picture but it's called a helmet mounted display. Inside this helmet 2 smal video projectors send a video stream to each eye. A computer and helmet tracker knows exactly where my head is looking from inside the cockpit and 6 Infared cameras outside the aircraft looking hemispheric around the plane provide an infared video image projected inside the helmet in all directions I look with a computer stitched image from the 6 cameras. It's similar to what your hamster sees from inside his plastic roller ball. Yes a horizon and other aircraft information is also projected inside the helmet video screen. With this technology you can see through the floor of the plane or out the tail as the cameras remove aircraft structure from your view. Add ADSB datalink traffic and other navigation information to the heads up cueing through the helmet and you can see where this teclnology is today for some segments of aviation and it will be there soon for general aviation. Infared has limitations but using technology like this helmet mounted display and aircraft hemispheric cameras does open up new vistas of day/night flying we have only dreamed about till now.

Cecil
 
Available in the certified world

The Cirrus SR22T has FLIR integrated with the Garmin Synthetic Vision as one of the factory options. Camera hiding inside a fairing just under the port side wing root.

Looked pretty sweet when I saw it a few years ago. Excellent to see it in the homebuilt world.
 
I think it would lead to total confusion if you were trying to look at it on a screen fixed to the panel, and the camera was moving around. This is sort of like flying with a periscope, or a small window - you see where the airplane is going. If you want a presentation of where you are looking, you'd need a display that moved with your head - night vision goggles, essentially.

What makes this great on the EFIS is that you can combine the image with EFIS data, so all you need is in one place - it's like a HUD (not just straight through the windscreen).

Not too bad really when you get used to it. Our targeting pods can be slewed around using a thumb button on the throttle. The screen is above our knee. After getting used to it, it's not confusing.
 
The main point is that it adds organic detail to your synthetic vision display. Deer, trees, people, vehicles, things you may never see at night become obvious through the FLIR imagery. Our EFIS software provides the ability to fine tune the position and zoom of the FLIR image on the EFIS so that it lines up perfectly with the virtual runways and obstacles in the SV database. The result is a synthetic vision EFIS display enhanced with organic details that are not in the database because they're always changing.

It's not meant for people to go out and land in pitch black for the heck of it. We see its value more for emergency situations where you're not sure if that black spot down there is a woods, field, lake, or what. It gives you a fighting chance in that situation. It's also good for people who use country airports where, with one glance at the EFIS on final (between the airspeed & altitude tapes), they would get a picture of deer and other animals well before they get into range of the landing light.
 
Last edited:
All you need

NVGs! Once you fly with with them you, never want to fly at night without them. Engine start to shutdown. Git some!
 
In flight, will this pick up other aircraft, birds, etc. as well? In enough detail to be useful during a night flight?
 
In flight, will this pick up other aircraft, birds, etc. as well? In enough detail to be useful during a night flight?

My experience so far is that it definitely sees other aircraft when they at formation distances (I have checked that while taxiing o the ground, not in the air - but you are not going to see them a half mile away. If it is night, you'll probably (hopefully) see their lights first! Birds? Nope - too small. Cows? I've shot approaches to a grass strip with cattle next to it, and they show up big and bright!

With regards to Night Vision Goggles, that really is a topic for another thread - the fixed FLIR/EFIS unit is an interesting development in an of itself. Would NVG's be better? Depends on what you are specifically going to use them for, and if you can get your hands on a pair that is good quality for a decent price. I'll wait until someone asks me to review a pair for them, and do a comparison for you... :p
 
NVGs! Once you fly with with them you, never want to fly at night without them. Engine start to shutdown. Git some!

No question about it... NVG's are really better suited for piloting tasks of see and avoid, obsticle detection and visual reference to a horizon, landings, take-off, etc.. while FLIR is far better for object (target) detection and tracking (given a slewable installation). I can understand use of FLIR in the taxi envoronment where life is a little less dynamic though with NVGs you can basically fly at night nearly the way you fly during the day, except you loose some depth perception which requires training and time to acclimate.

Slewable FLIR systems with video overlaid your PFD can introduce a host of very disorienting phenonmena. First, you need to have azimuth and elevation references displayed on your PFD othewise you will not know where the FLIR is pointed, this adds to clutter. Secondaly, imagine you slew the FLIR 90 deg to the left/right and pitch up. While your primary attitude instrument correctly displays aircraft attitude the FLIR image overlaid your PFD will show what appears to be an angle of bank. Now your are flying at night and you lose your engine, you now slew the FLIR looking for the safest place to land. The workload you've just added to simply keeping the airplane in control is enourmous as you must not only handle the engine out scenario but you must reconcile where the FLIR is pointing relative to the nose of the aircraft by cross-checking your heading with FLIR azimuth and elevation. Then as you turn the aircraft toward the designated safe landing area you must continue to slew the FLIR to maintain the image. If the FLIR as an auto tracker than this will be a bit easier but is still very, very workload intense. You will also have to consider the slew function dynamics - how fast does the FLIR slew, does it overshoot, and if so how hard is it to get back on target? I've flown many military grade and civilian FLIR systems and none are low workload. A fixed forward FLIR offers little help for night emergency ops as you'll need to manuever the airplane to find a suitable landing area based on FLIR imagery. Once you have the landing area in view it certainly would be helpful but don't underestimate the difficulty. Also, you'll have a cone of darkness under the airplane extending outward to a point where the FLIR Field of View intersects the ground based upon altitude. NVGs you simply swing your head around like normal and turn the airplane until your head is lookng straight ahead... you wont' even think about it. Of course NVGs have ambient lighting limitations just like FLIR has temperature and humidity limitations. A pair of high-quality ANVS-6 NVG's cost about $8K.
 
Back
Top