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IFR in the flight levels with the RV's?

riobison

Well Known Member
I'm looking at getting my IFR rating so that I can fly more from British Colombia to Denver Colorado twice a month. I have an RV4 so that is not really an option to use as it's not cost effective to bring it up to IFR standards and as well, it is way too small for me to make those 4 and 5 hr trips in.

Therefore, I was thinking maybe get into an RV7, RV8 or maybe get into a Turbocharged Cardinal. I will need something that will give me the altitude to safely clear the mountains and some of the weather with an altitude capability to maybe 20,000 ft.

Now there are people up here where I live that are telling me that unless the plane has and is certified for flight into icing there is no real advantage for me to consider getting this rating.

So my questions are, how many of you file and fly IFR into the flight levels? How well do the normally aspirated RV7's and the RV8's work for flying IFR in these flight levels?

Is having De Icing Capability really needed?

Or should I really be looking at a Turbocharged Spam Can with or without De-icing? Honestly de-icing is not in my budget.

Thanks

Tim
 
Ceiling for RV-7 with 180 hp is 20,500,
and for RV-7A is 19,500.

I'm guessing that performance would not be very good up there.
 
17,000 ft is probably the highest practical IFR altitude for an RV with a normally-aspirated engine. A turbo-charged engine would allow you to cruise at FL200 or 210, but that is a very large mod, and would require considerable extra work and would likely require quite a bit of tweaking in the flight test phase to get the cooling sorted out.

Which months of the year would you do these trips? How much flexibility would you have to pick the trip dates? An aircraft without a known ice capability is not going to be able to do this trip on many days in many months of the year. You would require either very significant flexibility to pick the trip dates that matched the weather, or you would need to be prepared to abandon the aircraft on the road and make a last minute switch to the airlines.

A Cessna P210 with known ice approval might be a better aircraft for this mission, but the acquisition, operating and maintenance costs would be far higher than an RV.
 
I cruised my RV7a at 15.5K, 153 knots and 7 GPH all the way back from Osh this year. 4.5 hours, 900SM ( I had a 40 knot tail wind).

You will need an O2 bottle.
 
Thoughts

I have flown singles and twins 3-400 mile legs in the Southwest for work where the weather is as mild as it gets. It gets pretty daunting. Truthfully, i would find myself preoccupied with weather forecasts at the expense of concentrating at the tasks at hand more than i would like to admit. The corridor you are considering is much more challenging in terms of distance, terrain and weather. I wouldnt consider it on a scheduled basis unless it was a twin, full function AP and good ice equipment. Also, with the weather, you will really wish you had turbines to get you well into the 20's.

I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm but IMHO going scheduled that distance every 2 weeks in a small, low altitude single would get old quickly all things considered.
 
1 more thing

I forgot to mention, by all means pursue your IFR rating and proficiency. You will never regret it!
 
This will be year round. The winter months would certainly not be possible and for me being there my days are set so if I can't make it then it's back to the airlines and parking the plane.

It appears there is some truth to this that unless I have De-icing then it's probably not worth pursuing this rating. I'm not sure if there would be any real benefit to the IFR rating at this point, unless I can afford to get into something with de-icing and I don't thinks that's in my budget at least at this time.

Thanks

Tim
 
With a 160 hp RV-9, you get something like 24,500 feet for the service ceiling. That's close to what my Cessna 180 has, and the airplane doesn't have much excess power at 18k - but it does have some, and not being IFR rated, I can't use it.

My feel for this is that you'd want more altitude performance.

Another thing to bear in mind, though, is that on a reasonable percentage of these trips, you probably won't need the extra capability. You would be able to safely manage the flight below 18k. It might be worth finding a good aviation meteorologist and getting their assessment.

Dave
 
It appears there is some truth to this that unless I have De-icing then it's probably not worth pursuing this rating. I'm not sure if there would be any real benefit to the IFR rating at this point, unless I can afford to get into something with de-icing and I don't thinks that's in my budget at least at this time.

Thanks

Tim

I have seen a huge benefit in having an IFR rating with my RV-10. It will make you a far safer pilot and you will use it more than you think when the weather is appropriate. I find it far less stressful and safer to just file IFR rather than scud run under the weather.

The problem with the trip you are talking about is ice and mountains. The MEA's between Denver and Seattle are high and this will put you right into the icing zone for much of the year.

I have a good friend with a Turbo Deiced SR22 Cirrus and he uses it for business trips between Oregon-Washington-Idaho-Montana. There are times when he has to go on the airlines, a lot of the time he uses the Cirrus.

Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
 
This route combines some of the roughest terrain south of Alaska with weather that is notoriously unpredictable. I'd guess there will be days when the airlines have trouble making that trip? :eek:

It would be a spectacular trip in good weather though!
 
rough weather and terrain

I don't know your exact route but the terrain north and east of boise is rough enough it made me nervous even when flying a 737. Flying a bigger jet with a higher single engine capability lessens the worry some. I would never fly a single engine airplane in the weather over that terrain. If you fly over the LKT vor ( Salmon) you would be over this terrain.

good luck

Chris M
 
I would never fly a single engine airplane in the weather over that terrain.

Same here.

To me, over the mountains, IFR only stands for I follow roads. The conventional wisdom around here is that IMC in the winter is almost a guarantee of picking up ice.

As for performance, I had my 180 HP RV6 up to 17.5 Monday and again just yesterday, back and forth to Vegas. The last 2000' yesterday were helped mightily by a mountain wave updraft, and I had to cut power and lower the nose to keep from bumping into class A once I hit the wave after that. It is hard to really be definitive, but based on how the plane performed yesterday, I would say Kevin H's comment on 17K being a practical limit is very true, and maybe even a little lower if you're within a couple hundred pounds of max gross

Go ahead and get your IFR rating though. It is fun, challenging, useful, and will almost certainly make you a better pilot.
 
Mountain WX

Not much mention of it here but in addition to the rocks and ice in the clouds over the Rockies, the wind and turbulence is often limiting as well. Clouds are often orographic. Makes for an ugly package- wind, turbulence, clouds, ice. And, though many days may look beautiful, the winds up there make it impassable, particularly now through April.

Though I enjoy flying over the Northerrn Rockies when it works, I often yearn to live somewhere that the weather is not so limiting.
 
Not much mention of it here but in addition to the rocks and ice in the clouds over the Rockies, the wind and turbulence is often limiting as well. Clouds are often orographic. Makes for an ugly package- wind, turbulence, clouds, ice. And, though many days may look beautiful, the winds up there make it impassable, particularly now through April.

Though I enjoy flying over the Northerrn Rockies when it works, I often yearn to live somewhere that the weather is not so limiting.

+10!

I live in Denver and have a Mooney Acclaim with TKS de-icing and a very doable ceiling of FL250. As capable as this plane is, I won't fly it over the Rockies in IMC conditions or even in clear air when the turbulence is forecast to be moderate or worse.

The most terrifying flight of my life took place 4 years ago on Labor Day weekend in CAVU conditions and wind calm on the ground in Denver. My wife and launched in the Mooney towards SoCal. Takeoff and climbout were smooth, but the jet stream dipped way south in a hurry (it was forecast to stay up in Wyoming until 3 hours after our departure) and when we crossed the Continental Divide at FL180, we flew straight into the teeth of a 90-knot headwind. Our groundspeed dropped from 170KT to 80KT... at full throttle. Decided to turn back when the turbulence started getting worse, but then we got caught in the mountain wave and rotor action descending into Denver, even though I flew 50 miles east of the foothills before descending to try to avoid it. I'm guessing we experienced +2G to -1.5G in the 90 minutes of moderate to severe turbulence that ensued. Cargo net broke in the baggage compartment and soon our luggage was hurtling throughout the cabin. My wife was screaming and crying. It was the most hellish rodeo ride I've experienced in 30 years of flying.

I vote you leave any regularly scheduled flying over the route you've described to the airlines, especially if it will be year-round.

Definitely get an instrument rating, though!
 
Instrument Rating - mixed blessing

I got my instrument rating in 1984 and from 1988 through 2004 I flew to work daily in the Los Angeles basin an a Piper Archer II. Very stable airplane with an autopilot but I never used it. My wife Jeanine and I built our RV-6A from 1996 through 2004 when I retired. I decided that I never used the autopilot so I did not install one. I flew it for a year IFR that way. The workload to me was very demanding. After a particularly difficult approach to Winston-Salem, NC I knew I needed the autopilot and installed a TruTrak Pictorial Pilot and Altrac altitude hold - tremendous improvement.

I originally installed an SL-60 panel mount GPS nav/com, a SL-40 Com and a Terra Nav radio with an electronic display similar to the dual Bendix BX 2000 that was in the Archer. It worked and met the requirements for ILS, Localizer and VOR approaches but switching NAV frequencies to get step down fixes during approaches was not a pleasant experience in an airplane that is as fast and maneuverable as the RV. To improve this I replaced the SL-40 with a SL-30 and an additional GS/LOC/VOR display.

Following a race in Llano. TX earlier this year there was a severe weather forcast for damaging hail in that area and the weather back at Fayetteville, Arkansas where I now live was forecast to be VMC. My solution was to file IFR and get on my way. No alternate was required and I only had 38 gallons of fuel and would have had to do some fine calculating to get to FYV do a missed approach fly to the alternate and still have 45 minutes reserve and the incoming weather did not permit me the time to do that. I did know that Springdale, Rogers and Northwest Arkansas Regional were nearby and I would have no trouble getting to them if necessary. As I neared Fayetteville I learned via ATIS that the airport was below approach minimums so I called Razorback Approach told them the situation and asked for the ILS approach to Springdale. I was told that both Springdale and Rogers ILS were out of service and that the only ILS available in northwest Arkansas was at XNA. I said that I needed to go to XNA and fly that approach. XNA ATIS was calling the ceiling at 300 and low visibility. I flew the approach in ragged form, knowing that this approach must be completed or ... there was no option. At 300 feet I saw the glow of the approach lights through the haze and everything worked out OK but it was not easy and it was not a routine confident flight operation. This experience should alert you to several things:

- RVs are not simple to fly IFR airplanes with a lot of performance margin.
- Some times the weather forecast is wrong.
- Actual conditions can be such that you have to rush to get airborne.
- Ground based navigational aids are not being maintained reliably
- Glass panel navigation is best probably but obsolescence and product support threats exist

Last week I flew to Waupaca, Wisconsin for another air race on Saturday 10-5-13 and the weather was marginal. I could go whenever I wanted and the weather was supposed to get worse later in the week so I decided to make the trip on Thursday. I had to decide whether to fly IFR or VFR and I said to myself just take the time and replan the flight for IFR. I found I could go direct to Razorback then V63 to Oshkosh at 7,000 feet. I thought I could land there or continue to Waupaca depending on conditions. I took off and all went well until northern Missouri. There, Kansas City Center told me they could give me a vector around some weather but they said there is a cell to the right and another to the left of your course and if you continue that line it appears you will avoid the bad weather. I said that I would just continue my current course. In the past I have scoffed at concerns for turbulence. I flew into this big solid white cloud on autopilot and the turbulence was so bad that I didn't know if the airplane would survive it. I had Jeanine's headset on with the thick leather and wool pad on top because my mic performance is getting marginal. At one point I was smashed into the canopy so hard that I might have been knocked out without it - I have hit my head in rough weather before but nothing like this. I did not know if this was the way my life would end in the next few minutes or not but I knew that I had to do my part correctly for any chance of survival. When I entered a momentary clearing I cancelled IFR and descended below the clouds around Hannibal, Missouri. There I could see the massive black formations on the left and right of my course and deviated north around the back of the one on the right and refueled at Burlington, Iowa, From there I flew at about 1,000 ft AGL to Waupaca deviating many times to avoid weather. More lessons learned.

IFR allows you to fly when the VFR only pilot is grounded but it can kill you. The ground elevation on this trip was around 800 feet. In the past two years I have flown to your part of the country eight times (16 oneway flights) for races in Washington, Idaho, Montana and Reno (not as a racer) and there is no way I would fly there in IMC with an RV. The victor airways are not always the best routes for example, the direct route from Goodland, Kansas to Sheridan, Wyoming is much safer than Goodland - Cheyenne - Muddy Mountain - Crazy Woman - Sheridan

It is often said (by instructors especially) that getting an instrument rating will make you a better pilot. I say that it will demonstrate that you focused on a goal and persisted until you got the rating. I think it exposes you to additional knowledge and procedures but it is a transient skill that must be exercised regularly to maintain and it exposes the pilot to greater risks in exchange for the convenience.

Bob Axsom
 
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Excellent Advice

Bob,

I agree with you 100%. Even though at this point I am still flying a Cherokee 180, more or less the same aircraft you used to fly the Instrument rating does give you plenty of rope to get yourself into trouble with.

That being said, it is a very valuable tool and I keep proficient or don't use it until I am. I am always prepared to fly down to mins at any time however still prefer 'gentlemens IFR' and in light airplanes Archer/Cherokee (assuming RV as well) I find that enough lifting in the clouds can toss you around enough to scare me at times.

Thanks for sharing your experience.
 
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Thoughts:

-1st get an instrument rating. 2nd decide what is the best aircraft. You will at least have context for the decisions.

-You need de-ice capability.

-Performance margin. When descending is not an option (terrain, another flight operating below you, moderate ice in the mid-teens) and you need (must) to climb you are lacking good performance margin. Think of a bad but realistic scenario; you are heavy, cruising at 17K, something prevents you from descending (see reasons above), you are carrying some ice (can?t be shed; deice vs. anti ice vs no protection) and you need to climb at a least 500 fpm?
 
Bob Axsom, Rob Hickman et al have explicitly captured the importance of this post. Is it worthwhile to get an IFR ticket? Very rewarding and beneficial. Is it possible to fly IFR in an RV? Yes, but once you have obtained the IFR rating you will gain a new found appreciation for such things as flights into known icing. There are far worse things in life than being squeezed into an air carrier for a few hours across the Cascades and the Rockies. Not much but a few.
 
This should always set off alarm bells.

It should always raise awareness - not necessarily set off alarm bells. I've been in a hurry many times, you just have to make sure all your bases are covered without wasting time. If you start missing items, now that should set off alarm bells.
 
IFR

I got my instrument rating in 1984 and from 1988 through 2004 I flew to work daily in the Los Angeles basin an a Piper Archer II. Very stable airplane with an autopilot but I never used it. My wife Jeanine and I built our RV-6A from 1996 through 2004 when I retired. I decided that I never used the autopilot so I did not install one. I flew it for a year IFR that way. The workload to me was very demanding. After a particularly difficult approach to Winston-Salem, NC I knew I needed the autopilot and installed a TruTrak Pictorial Pilot and Altrac altitude hold - tremendous improvement.

I originally installed an SL-60 panel mount GPS nav/com, a SL-40 Com and a Terra Nav radio with an electronic display similar to the dual Bendix BX 2000 that was in the Archer. It worked and met the requirements for ILS, Localizer and VOR approaches but switching NAV frequencies to get step down fixes during approaches was not a pleasant experience in an airplane that is as fast and maneuverable as the RV. To improve this I replaced the SL-40 with a SL-30 and an additional GS/LOC/VOR display.

Following a race in Llano. TX earlier this year there was a severe weather forcast for damaging hail in that area and the weather back at Fayetteville, Arkansas where I now live was forecast to be VMC. My solution was to file IFR and get on my way. No alternate was required and I only had 38 gallons of fuel and would have had to do some fine calculating to get to FYV do a missed approach fly to the alternate and still have 45 minutes reserve and the incoming weather did not permit me the time to do that. I did know that Springdale, Rogers and Northwest Arkansas Regional were nearby and I would have no trouble getting to them if necessary. As I neared Fayetteville I learned via ATIS that the airport was below approach minimums so I called Razorback Approach told them the situation and asked for the ILS approach to Springdale. I was told that both Springdale and Rogers ILS were out of service and that the only ILS available in northwest Arkansas was at XNA. I said that I needed to go to XNA and fly that approach. XNA ATIS was calling the ceiling at 300 and low visibility. I flew the approach in ragged form, knowing that this approach must be completed or ... there was no option. At 300 feet I saw the glow of the approach lights through the haze and everything worked out OK but it was not easy and it was not a routine confident flight operation. This experience should alert you to several things:

- RVs are not simple to fly IFR airplanes with a lot of performance margin.
- Some times the weather forecast is wrong.
- Actual conditions can be such that you have to rush to get airborne.
- Ground based navigational aids are not being maintained reliably
- Glass panel navigation is best probably but obsolescence and product support threats exist

Last week I flew to Waupaca, Wisconsin for another air race on Saturday 10-5-13 and the weather was marginal. I could go whenever I wanted and the weather was supposed to get worse later in the week so I decided to make the trip on Thursday. I had to decide whether to fly IFR or VFR and I said to myself just take the time and replan the flight for IFR. I found I could go direct to Razorback then V63 to Oshkosh at 7,000 feet. I thought I could land there or continue to Waupaca depending on conditions. I took off and all went well until northern Missouri. There, Kansas City Center told me they could give me a vector around some weather but they said there is a cell to the right and another to the left of your course and if you continue that line it appears you will avoid the bad weather. I said that I would just continue my current course. In the past I have scoffed at concerns for turbulence. I flew into this big solid white cloud on autopilot and the turbulence was so bad that I didn't know if the airplane would survive it. I had Jeanine's headset on with the thick leather and wool pad on top because my mic performance is getting marginal. At one point I was smashed into the canopy so hard that I might have been knocked out without it - I have hit my head in rough weather before but nothing like this. I did not know if this was the way my life would end in the next few minutes or not but I knew that I had to do my part correctly for any chance of survival. When I entered a momentary clearing I cancelled IFR and descended below the clouds around Hannibal, Missouri. There I could see the massive black formations on the left and right of my course and deviated north around the back of the one on the right and refueled at Burlington, Iowa, From there I flew at about 1,000 ft AGL to Waupaca deviating many times to avoid weather. More lessons learned.

IFR allows you to fly when the VFR only pilot is grounded but it can kill you. The ground elevation on this trip was around 800 feet. In the past two years I have flown to your part of the country eight times (16 oneway flights) for races in Washington, Idaho, Montana and Reno (not as a racer) and there is no way I would fly there in IMC with an RV. The victor airways are not always the best routes for example, the direct route from Goodland, Kansas to Sheridan, Wyoming is much safer than Goodland - Cheyenne - Muddy Mountain - Crazy Woman - Sheridan

It is often said (by instructors especially) that getting an instrument rating will make you a better pilot. I say that it will demonstrate that you focused on a goal and persisted until you got the rating. I think it exposes you to additional knowledge and procedures but it is a transient skill that must be exercised regularly to maintain and it exposes the pilot to greater risks in exchange for the convenience.

Bob Axsom

Good story Bob. Thanks for sharing it.

After thirty five years as a professional pilot I am more restrictive with myself than most IFR pilots I talk to. The Doll is very well equipped with a two screen G3X, GTN 650 navigator/Com, two axis auto pilot, and all the weather, and traffic bells and whistles, and can fly a very nice coupled approaches if desired. In addition, HWA extended range AUX tanks increases the fuel capacity to 51 gallons. Never the less, I ask myself before filing: Do you really need to do this?

Back at Laughlin Air Force Base above the door in "H" Flight (a T-38 undergraduate pilot training flight room) there is a sign the reads:

It is far better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, then be in the air wishing you were on the ground! I've been both places!

It comforts me to know that the Doll is equipped for IFR if ever I need it, but I can't get past the thought that the Air Force and American Airlines paid me to fly IFR into all kinds of weather. No one does that now!
 
Thanks for sharing your experience Bob. What a story - lots of lessons to be learned from that!

An IFR rating is certainly an asset but should be used judiciously. Good decision making is essential when deciding whether to fly IFR. Being instrument rated is an excellent survival tool should you ever be surprised when flying VFR, a fate to which many non instrument rated pilots have succumbed and met their demise.

Whilst I've not yet finished my RV-7 I will not be equipping it for IFR flight but it will be equipped as a very redundant VFR airplane with two GPS's and an EFIS, MFD and autopilot from none other than Rob Hickman's company, AFS. The reason for my decision is that after a long and colorful career starting with the military and ending up with a major European Airline from which I'm soon to retire, I'm just not prepared to fly in IMC with a single engine aircraft without de-icing and redundant independent avionics systems (and no co-pilot to keep an eye on me). I think that my plane will be adequately equipped to get me through a medium height layer of clouds, should I experience an unexpected change in the VMC conditions I intend to operate in.

Having said that, it is my intention to retain my instrument rating after retirement and I will be passing my skills onto others as a flight instructor. I also agree with Rob Hickman who I believe has an excellently equipped RV-10 with a good level of redundancy. Rob has in the past also demonstrated good judgement and decision making by having a plan B after being surprised by an unexpected turn in the weather, making a safe landing at an airport with adequate weather and taking a ride home in an airliner.

Airlines, the military and reputable corporate fleets have Flight Operations Manuals where the crews have to stick to very stringent rules governing the selection of airports, decision making and carriage of fuel in adverse weather conditions. Most companies refer to it as their bible and it generally keeps crews and passengers out of harms way.

In the general aviation world, everyone has to write his own bible before making that all important decision whether to take off or not. First and foremost, in a single engined aircraft you should have an overnight bag and a credit card so that you are not pressured to make that fateful flight. Be prepared to sleep over/use alternate means to get home should you be surprised by the weather. Secondly you should have a plan B consistent with the way your aircraft is equipped, for instance if you don't have redundant instruments and avionics, you should have a reachable alternate airfield that is definitely going to be VMC. And lastly if you do have all the whistles and the bells and adequate alternate airfields, you'll have to be comfortable with the fact that if the prop stops, when you break out of the clag at 200 feet, you'll have around 15 seconds before you hit the ground. If we have an engine failure with the airliner I fly, we declare an emergency and land at the nearest suitable airport. The remaining engine has a comfortable power margin and is about 1000 times more reliable than a Lycoming piston engine! Go figure!
 
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Learning to fly was fun. Getting the instrument rating was challenging and hard work, far from fun. The only fun time was looking up at the end of an approach and seeing(hopefully) the runway in front of you.
 
Flying an RV IFR at FL180 and above is like taking a 24' outboard fishing boat to sea, not wise to do so. The environment can be most hostile and no fun to deal with even with equipment designed for the mission. Many a time the thought was - sure glad to not be here in a light airplane.
 
Tim, it is ashame that others would tell you that there is no advantage to getting an instrument rating. I think every pilot should aspire to an instrument rating and at the very least take some instruction even if you don't get the rating. In my flying I can point to three things that exponentially made me a better and safer pilot. First was getting my instrument rating, second was formation flying, and third was my tail wheel instructor who was an old timer that taught me true and pure stick & rudder flying skills. Each one of these brought precision, knowledge, safe confidence, and skills that a basic VFR spam-can driver has not been exposed to. I do not use my instrument rating often but I keep current which keeps me sharp. I have witnessed the same precision from other pilots that also got their instrument rating. At the very least start taking some instruction and decide for yourself. I think you will find it not only fun but your skills will improve quickly plus it will impart knowledge that is advantagous for VFR flying.

For the mission you decribed, twice a month from BC to Denver, the airlines will be your best bet with perhaps occasionally doing it on your own. I agree with all the others on why an RV is not great in the flight levels. If that is where you want to go on a consistent basis you will want a plane that is not only certified for flight into known icing but also turbocharged or turbine not to mention the need for either a oxygen mask or presurized cabin and a good heater. I have flown in my buddies Meridian a few times and it was pleasurable smooth ride at FL260 overtop the wx. Then there was the flight we were dodging wx and had to divert and land because the route was a solid block of severe thunderstorms up to 45,000', bad enough to close down two Class B airports and many others.
 
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