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First Flight of My RV-3

jim miller

Well Known Member
I have made many posts here recently about my purchase of a less engine
formerly flying (200 hrs) RV3. With the excellent help from forum I flew it
for the first time yesterday and again today. So far 8 landings and 1.5 hours
with a 0235 C-1 and a Ed Sterba 68 X 64 prop. It flys great and I have seen
1200 FPM climb at one point and noted 162 mph on my GPS. Very preliminary numbers but encourgaging. I thought at first the 68 x 64 prop
had too much pitch but noted today a max rpm of 2500 at 2000' altitude.
I want a cruise prop and it may be OK as is. If I continue without major problems I will be proof of how easy it is to fly a RV3.
I have 8 hours dual in champ with endorsment and one hour in a RV8 and one hour with a non-instructor friend in his RV6. So far all is well. I am flying
off a large WW2 concrete runway and landing on an ajoining very, very wide
and long grass runway. I would have preferred more training but going half-way cross country and flying in a high powered RV6 or 7 was not practical
for me.
 
Congratulations!

May all your landings be smooth and best of all, straight!

And please keep us posted as you get more experience with it, too.

Thanks,
Dave
 
I have some pics and will try to post some later. I now have 3 hours and
21 landings. I have learned a lot with a lot to go, I didn't have my first bounce until about landing 14 or 15 and think I learned from that. Overall
I feel very good about landing so far but have not ventured from the wide
grass strip yet. My BIG problem is take-off from the hardsurface runway.
I would like some advice. Basically tell me everything. I am setting on
the center line ready to apply power what do I do? How quick should I be
to get it on the mains only?

Thanks
Jim Miller
 
Jim, there's no hurry to get her on the mains, besides, with the stick in the neutral position, you already have a positive angle of attack back there and she'll automatically lift the tail on her own. You can help with a little forward elevator but don't rush it. You'll have more positive steering with the tailwheel down too.

As it accelerates, it'll take less and less forward stick and when it starts taking a little backpressure to keep it from coming too high back there, is when she'll lift off.

Best,
 
My BIG problem is take-off from the hardsurface runway. I would like some advice. Basically tell me everything. I am setting on
the center line ready to apply power what do I do? How quick should I be
to get it on the mains only?

Jim, what sort of problem are you having? I've flown RV-3's and they were no different from any other tailwheel airplane I've flown regarding takeoff procedure. Here's what I do in pretty much any TW plane:

1)Stick neutral or very slightly aft
2)Smooth but assertive full power application
3)Feel for the speed that the tail almost wants to fly on its own, and help it up with a small amount of forward stick, but don't force it up early with full forward stick. The timing really isn't critical. Just don't give up tailwheel control too early in strong x-wind conditions - especially left x-wind.
4)Raise the tail 6-12" to a slight tail-low attitude and hold it. No need to look at the ASI.
5)Let it fly off in that attitude. The plane will fly when it's ready, regardless of density altitude conditions and how the plane is loaded. As Pierre mentions, holding that attitude will require the stick to progressively move aft as speed builds. But it's not a large movement. Just do with the stick what's required to hold the attitude you want.

But you can take off 3-point, you can raise the tail immediately, you can hold the stick very slightly aft, as if it was in concrete until it flies, you can force it to run on the mains tail high until you see a speed you like on the ASI and then "rotate". There are really no rules. Whatever you're most comfortable with and works best for you. The procedure I describe is just my preference and what seems most natural. There's really nothing unique about the RV, as far as tailwheel techniques go. Again, I would simply caution against forcing the tail up too early. No reason to do it, and could get interesting in strong x-winds.
 
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When the tail does start up, come in with right rudder to keep it straight.

Incidentally, that's why a left crosswind is more serious than a right one on take-off. It's because you've already got some right rudder committed to handling p-factor and there's less available for handling the crosswind.

Dave
 
Very nice to see you complete your project and fly it!
Great advice from the group on your take-off techniques. Don't settle into one technique or another. Playing with it will develop a wider and better understanding of how it behaves.
As you learn, especially your landings, keep your limits low until you gain the confidence that you can handle heavier winds and cross winds. Sounds like you are already doing a good job of that.
Don't be afraid to test your bounderies on cross winds as long as you keep an "into the wind" runway available to you. Basic rules while you learn; if you run out of rudder on final and can not keep the airplane straight, don't touch down. If you bounce, go around. Even with the 235, you have enough power to easily get yourself flying again. You can even practice cross wind landings without a crosswind by learning to land on the "upwind" wheel. Do it on both sides so you don't get "handed".
Good luck and have fun!
 
When the tail does start up, come in with right rudder to keep it straight.

Incidentally, the takeoff technique I described hardly requires any additional right rudder input as the tail comes up...if you time it correctly and do it smoothly. This right rudder addition as the tail comes up has always been chalked up to gyroscopics. This is true to a degree (with metal props), but with all the Cattos and other composite props everyone is running now, pure gyroscopics are almost non-existent for these. And P-Factor is being reduced as the tail comes up. So really what's happening is that the slipstream yaw is becoming more apparent once you've raised the tail and given up tailwheel directional control. This may require a bit of additional right rudder, but again, you can time the raising of the tail such that the need for additional right rudder is almost non-existent. Makes things simpler. And after a certain point, as you accelerate during the takeoff run, the rudder requirement will be reduced due to increasing airflow over the rudder.
 
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Incidentally, the takeoff technique I described hardly requires any additional right rudder input as the tail comes up...if you time it correctly and do it smoothly. This right rudder addition as the tail comes up has always been chalked up to gyroscopics. This is true to a degree (with metal props), but with all the Cattos and other composite props everyone is running now, pure gyroscopics are almost non-existent for these. And P-Factor is being reduced as the tail comes up. So really what's happening is that the slipstream yaw is becoming more apparent once you've raised the tail and given up tailwheel directional control. This may require a bit of additional right rudder, but again, you can time the raising of the tail such that the need for additional right rudder is almost non-existent. Makes things simpler. And after a certain point, as you accelerate during the takeoff run, the rudder requirement will be reduced due to increasing airflow over the rudder.

Works as you describe in my Bucker, not so much for my 6 unless I am really patient in applying full power. The engine/prop combination makes a huge difference. 180hp CS in the 6, 150hp FP composite (wood) in the Bucker. Makes sense described as you did. Good stuff.
 
Works as you describe in my Bucker, not so much for my 6 unless I am really patient in applying full power. The engine/prop combination makes a huge difference. 180hp CS in the 6, 150hp FP composite (wood) in the Bucker.

I believe that. But even with a metal prop, unless you really raise the tail quickly, IMO, most of the need for extra right rudder is still caused by the slipstream and loss of tailwheel steering. Most experienced folks raise the tail pretty smoothly, which doesn't create much gyro action, even with a metal prop. Not arguing, just giving my take on a point that "conventional wisdom" has long held that it's gyroscopics causing the nose to pull left when raising the tail. This even happens in a J-3 with a wood prop if you raise the tail quickly. And if you do it really early, it'll even swerve pretty hard if you let it...and with a wood prop and 65hp, there sure ain't much gyro action, consdering the relatively long moment provided by the fuselage in relation to the size and mass of the wood prop. Gyroscopic precession is real, but IMO, just not the primary force at work at any point during the takeoff run.
 
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My problem was keeping it straight. If the tailwheel is left on ground
do I start to add some right rudder as power is applied or just wait until
plane starts to go left before adding right rudder. I am getting behind
the airplane, going left and then over controlling to come back right which
sometimes leads to a unpleasant weaving and a desire to jerk it off the ground. The timing of adding right rudder is most likely my biggest problem.
 
My problem was keeping it straight. If the tailwheel is left on ground
do I start to add some right rudder as power is applied or just wait until
plane starts to go left before adding right rudder. I am getting behind
the airplane, going left and then over controlling to come back right which
sometimes leads to a unpleasant weaving and a desire to jerk it off the ground. The timing of adding right rudder is most likely my biggest problem.

No worries Jim. That's normal when starting out, and is just a matter of practice. And yes, you'll learn to be more proactive with your rudder pressure/input rather than waiting to see the nose move and responding. The dynamics are constantly changing during the takeoff run, which requires constantly adjusting your rudder pressure/input. You'll learn to anticipate what's required before the nose even moves, so that you'll be doing perfectly dead-straight takeoff runs, with very little rudder use. In most of the airplanes I've flown, right rudder pressure is needed from the very start to keep things straight.
 
My problem was keeping it straight. If the tailwheel is left on ground
do I start to add some right rudder as power is applied or just wait until
plane starts to go left before adding right rudder. I am getting behind
the airplane, going left and then over controlling to come back right which
sometimes leads to a unpleasant weaving and a desire to jerk it off the ground. The timing of adding right rudder is most likely my biggest problem.
Overcorrecting is a common problem with new tailwheel pilots. You will learn to apply rudder more smoothly with time. On both of my airplanes, some right rudder goes in while the tail wheel is on the ground. I can not tell you how much, it is just a natural thing learned over time. You will get the hang of it.
(edit, parallel response, what he said, ha....)
 
Been a little too gusty to fly but I plan to drastically change my take-off
technique. Carefully line up on centerline, apply power slowly as speed picks
up, holding stick neutral, or very slightly aft. If I can develope a sure safe way to take off I can refine it as I gain confidence and experience. The only
landing problem I have had in my 21 landings is I got the feeling I was getting
very close to three pointing versus tail low wheel landings and decided
to stick it on like I did in the champ during my tailwheel endorsment training.
Very bad idea, that I will never try again. After a few more landings on the grass and a better handle on takeoff's I will give landing on the hard surface
a try. I didn't like the idea of flying the RV3 with my limited tailwheel experience but feel I am now at least about even with where I would be with
4 or 5 hours of dual in a similar but not quite the same RV 6 ,7 or 8. Thanks
for all the advice and I will report back with my progress.

Jim Miller
 
RV3 Takeoff/Landing methods

On takeoff, smooth application of throttle, a little fwd stick to bring the tail up ... until you can juuust see over the top of the cowling. Now hold it there (don't look at the ASI), and let it fly itself off. I don't know what speed my -3 lifts off at, as I've never looked. With the tail up after smooth application of power, the -3 has *plenty* of authority in the rudder to stay straight.

Landing: after getting on airspeed/glide path/centerline, the key with the -3 is to keep the descent rate going through the round-out, the flare. As you bring the stick back slowly, say to yourself: "descend, descend, descend ...", and keep the sight-picture descending until something touches, either all three, or just the mains, or a single main, or a single main and the tail, then put the other main down (as in a x-wind). Whatever, it doesn't matter. In turbulence, it is pretty difficult to say "Now, I am going to do a 3-pt", or "I will do a wheel landing this time". Just let the airplane do what it is going to do, then adapt to it.

This technique works great to avoid the hit-and-bounce, and the flare-too-high (which will result in a hit-and-bounce), or the run-out-of-airspd-and-hit-too-hard (IMHO).

- Steven
2300 RV3 takeoff/landings
700+ hours
(10 more in the last three days!)
 
I finally got to fly again after all the bad weather from hurricane. I lined up
on centerline and very slowly started applying power holding the stick neutral. With no control problems like before the tail came off and within
seconds I lifted off smoothly. With the advice of everyone I feel much more
confidant and this morning plan to takeoff and land from the hardsurface.
I am lucky here at THA to have parallel grass and very wide 5000 ft concrete
runways. Being able to land on grass for my first 20 something landings
was critical to my RV3 transition training. Thanks to all for the good advice.

Jim Miller
 
I have now switched to hard surface runway after 22 grass landings. I am
doing fine on the pavement for landings and my takeoff's are now no problem. I have 28 total landings, have put the wheel pants on and have
flown off the FAA five hour 25 mile radius restriction due to the different
engine and prop. I am going on a 250mile each way trip to Indiana tomorrow.
Thanks for all the advice.

Jim Miller
 
I now have 14 hours with two trips to Indiana of 275mi each way. Other than
a slight bounce every now and then I feel very good about my progress. I didn't have insurance until I got 10 hours and now feel a lot better knowing
that i have liability coverage. The plane performs well with the 0235 C1 engine with a cruise of 160mph. My prop may be slightly over pitched 68 X 64 with Max RPM seen of 2500. I cruise at 2350 like I did when the engine was in the Colt. The Colt specs called for a max of 2600 as I recall. The engine itself has a redline of 2800. Climb is 1200 to 1500 FPM. If any of the
prop experts has any advice on these numbers and any need to change prop
pitch I would welcome it.

Thanks
Jim Miller
 
I now have 28 hours on my RV3 with six cross countries of 200 plus
miles each way. Overall my landings are fine but not consistant. I have
found that when doing "tail low wheel" landings some are nearer three
point than others. The best ones seem to be more wheel than near three
pointers. What should I do to make them wheel or more wheel-like?
Should I carry some power until near touchdown? I have been using full
flaps. Would I be better off with only two notches?

Thanks
Jim Miller
 
Jim, loaded question - generally speaking, why do wheelies at all? It's a preference thing, but in general I much prefer the minimum speed and purity of a 3-pointers. My RV-3 would do either just fine. I mostly 3-pointed it. You're simply getting too slow before touching down. Nothing wrong with that, but if you're already that tail low before touching down, you might as well just 3-point it. The tail has to come down anyway. I'd rather it be down right away than delay the inevitable. You need to touch down faster if you want a more normal "wheel" attitude. Just realize that this does not necessarily mean approaching faster.

For me, the difference between the two landing types occurs in the timing of breaking the glide. If doing a three pointer, I'll break the glide higher, above ground effect and try for a smooth continual pull to three point attitude so that by the time I'm 6" above the runway I'm very close...without much excess speed that causes floating and bouncing. I try to avoid what I see a lot of times with RVs - leveling off low and fast and then floating for 1000'+ before touching down.

When doing wheelies, fly the same approach, but delay breaking the glide until you're lower to the runway, entering ground effect. Fly it on. This will cause you to maintain more airspeed by the time you're 6" off the ground and starting to settle smoothly and feel for the runway. You can use power as a crutch during the roundout, since timing is more critical when flying power off. But with practice, you can do it power off with full flaps just fine. It's all about energy management and practice...and of course learning the sight picture and knowing exactly how far you are from the runway during the landing process.
 
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It's all about energy management and practice...and of course learning the sight picture and knowing exactly how far you are from the runway during the landing process.

Very good description Eric.

When I am most interested in the shortest possible landing/roll (with a reasonably competent looking touchdown), I am usually flying with an aft CG (camping gear at backcountry airstrips) and full flaps. In this scenario, it is very easy hold it off too long and touch tail first. Of course, the mains then come down harder than I'd like. I'm slowly learning that it is more about sight picture in this scenario than slowing the airplane to minimum speed before touchdown.
 
I'm slowly learning that it is more about sight picture in this scenario than slowing the airplane to minimum speed before touchdown.

Yep, you'd need some 31" Bushwheels to do a good full-stall landing in the -3 with all your camping gear in the back. Hmmm... :)
 
Yep, you'd need some 31" Bushwheels to do a good full-stall landing in the -3 with all your camping gear in the back. Hmmm... :)

Exactly!! I've never seen it but am told there is a fellow with an RV-8 and big wheels. Not that big though! Story goes that they don't slow him down all that much but make a world of difference on the backcountry strips that he frequents. Seems like I heard something around a 10 mph loss at cruise.

Of course, one of those mammoth tailwheels is needed to complete the look!! :eek:
 
Jim, loaded question - generally speaking, why do wheelies at all? It's a preference thing, but in general I much prefer the minimum speed and purity of a 3-pointers. My RV-3 would do either just fine. I mostly 3-pointed it. You're simply getting too slow before touching down. Nothing wrong with that, but if you're already that tail low before touching down, you might as well just 3-point it. The tail has to come down anyway. I'd rather it be down right away than delay the inevitable. You need to touch down faster if you want a more normal "wheel" attitude. Just realize that this does not necessarily mean approaching faster.

For me, the difference between the two landing types occurs in the timing of breaking the glide. If doing a three pointer, I'll break the glide higher, above ground effect and try for a smooth continual pull to three point attitude so that by the time I'm 6" above the runway I'm very close...without much excess speed that causes floating and bouncing. I try to avoid what I see a lot of times with RVs - leveling off low and fast and then floating for 1000'+ before touching down.

When doing wheelies, fly the same approach, but delay breaking the glide until you're lower to the runway, entering ground effect. Fly it on. This will cause you to maintain more airspeed by the time you're 6" off the ground and starting to settle smoothly and feel for the runway. You can use power as a crutch during the roundout, since timing is more critical when flying power off. But with practice, you can do it power off with full flaps just fine. It's all about energy management and practice...and of course learning the sight picture and knowing exactly how far you are from the runway during the landing process.


Eric
That makes a lot of sense and thinking back is most likely the difference in
my landings. Knowing to adjust the flair point will allow me to better understand what is happening. I think I would do better to wheel land on
long paved runway's using power to correct and tend more to 3 point/very
tail low wheel when landing on shorter grass runways.

Thanks
Jim Miller
 
Big Un's....

Exactly!! I've never seen it but am told there is a fellow with an RV-8 and big wheels. Not that big though! Story goes that they don't slow him down all that much but make a world of difference on the backcountry strips that he frequents. Seems like I heard something around a 10 mph loss at cruise.

Of course, one of those mammoth tailwheels is needed to complete the look!! :eek:
JD,
Four years ago I mounted larger cross section tires on my Harmon Rocket for operations off my very soft home "Swamp" strip. The idea sprung from RV4 builder Steve Sampson who was looking for a larger footprint on his short home strip in the UK without adding drag. Here's a link to his blog showing the mod. http://gikonfinsh.blogspot.com/ I have since modded my RVX Hybrid the exact same way as Steve's RV4. Actually Vince Frazier's TW works really well in mud...

The handling, taxi ability and footprint, even on pavement is significantly improved, compared to 500X5's. Here's a link to that thread:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=23360&highlight=bushwheels+Rocket

V/R
Smokey
Dues gladly paid in Iraq...
Gladly paid to DR anyway...
 
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JD,
Four years ago I mounted larger cross section tires on my Harmon Rocket for operations off my very soft home "Swamp" strip.

Thanks Smokey! An RV-4 friend has done the same thing and likes it. I'm convinced but not excited about the wheel skirt work that I expect will be required. I just installed a set of the Dresser 500-5 Monster Retreads and they are a bit taller than what I had previously (and significantly more robust). This buys me some ground clearance (to the skirts) and I think will be sufficient for the time being. That said, I do plan the swap that you have referenced, some day...
 
I now have 45 hours on the RV3. I feel very confortable flying it now. One of the
problems I had initially was approach speeds too high. I now try to keep
final around 70 for a wheel landing. I do all wheel landings and try to keep the
tailwheel off by neutral to slight forward stick after touching down. On
takeoff's I just try to let it lift off by holding a neutral or slightly aft stick.
That first day when I took off I had a grand total of 8 hours TW time so it
can't be too hard to fly. I feel a lot better about flying my clipped wing super
cub if I ever get it done. Thanks to all for the excellent advice on flying technique
and to Mark Spry and Larry Jenkins for
taking me up in their RV's to get a feel for what to expect.

Thanks
JM
 
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Wheel landings

There were about 280 hours on my -3, n283RV, when I sold it last year so I have a little bit of landing experience. I always did wheel landings because that seemed to provide a more precise arrival, particularly in windy conditions.
A little trick I used to keep the tail wheel a little higher without increasing speed, was to go to full nose-down trim immediately before the mains touched. Along with elevating the tail wheel, this changed the angle of attack, keeping the mains firmly planted.

Bill Newkirk
N488KM
 
I now have 95 hours on my RV3 and 103 total TW time. I make only wheel
landings and rarely touch down hard enough get any bounce. The only problem I see with this is using a lot of runway especially if a little fast on
final. I try to keep my short final at around 75mph. Overall Buying the RV3
was the best flying decision I ever made.

JM
 
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