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Forced Rebuild of RV6-A "Alice"

zcv7853

Member
The history - I used to work at my local airport and knew of an RV6A slowly dying in a hangar. The owner stopped flying it and it sat for the last 8 years at least. I decided to purchase it (for a killer steal of a deal!) and set about making it airworthy once again....I spent about 2 months getting it ready: new fluids, complete lube of all moving parts, removed a cylinder from the 0320 and borescoped - all looked good. First time engine start was great - no issues. Flew it for the first time in 8 years and had an RV grin that everyone talks about. First time in a 6! Flew it a lot for the first 2 weeks and really loved it. I put around 10 hours on it and disaster struck - engine out over the beach at 1500 feet with no options. Long story short, picture perfect off airport landing on the beach until the nosewheel dug in and we flipped. Both wingtip skins were damaged along with the empennage. Fuse somehow was undamaged except for the sliding canopy.

The project - I purchased a kit for repair parts from a local that gave up after finishing all but the fuselage. Wings, tail surfaces, control surfaces all completed and crated....almost like a gift from the man himself. I have removed all the damaged surfaces and am in the process of attaching my new parts.

Ill try to keep this up to date and post some pictures. I am hoping my new Vans family can keep my spirits up, never had an engine let me down before.

Image here
https://imgur.com/mSEgzme
 
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If you walked away it was a GOOD Landing!

What caused the engine out ? Is the long black streak down the belly related to the engine out ? Its source from that seam looks dubious.
 
What caused the engine out ? Is the long black streak down the belly related to the engine out ? Its source from that seam looks dubious.

I believe the black is from when it was still running. I guess I installed a smoke system without meaning to...? The seam line is where it started to collect at the beginning of the emergency. Just my best guess. Nothing obvious. It was clean before the flight.

Glad you made it out safely! How did you get out of the cockpit?

Fortunately the canopy shattered . My passenger was unbuckled and in the baggage area so fast I still dont know how he did it. He was able to enlarge the hole with a foot and dug us out. I was pinned pretty good, my side took most of the impact. He got the seat cushions out and gave me some room.


Todays progress - Bolted the new/replacement horizontal stab on and started working on the vertical. In the picture you can see the rivet line of the aftmost bulkhead that I replaced behind the rudder stops. The vertical stabilizer attachment nuts pulled though the thin bulkhead. First time Ive ever riveted anything! Beginning to look like an airplane again. :)

https://imgur.com/LSzSpHl
 
I also have a question I need some advice on.

I tore my engine down (O-320) with the help of a very experienced local guy that does experimental and airboat engines for the past 40 years. The engine overheated as all the oil was on the bottom of the plane and it needs: at the very least 4 new jugs, a crankshaft (likely warped no inspection yet though) and the camshaft sent out for regrind or yellow tag replacement. Including all the little bits here and there I fully expect the pricetag to fix it to be in the neighborhood of 8-10k.

Taken into account its a 320, many have suggested that now would be the time to upgrade to 180hp. I will be selling this as soon as it is completed and airworthy again and want to keep costs cheap, however if I can spend 5k more to add 10k to its value then it is worth considering.

I believe I would need a replacement engine mount and all the associated work to convert it. Seems like a huge effort for 10 more knots. Thoughts?
 
O-320

The general consensus in my neck of the woods is that the -6 handles better with the lighter -320 than -360. A light -6 is the best.
 
The most fundamental thing here of interest to other RV pilots is why your engine quit. That’s what everyone wants to know.
 
The most fundamental thing here of interest to other RV pilots is why your engine quit. That’s what everyone wants to know.
+1.

As for your question about upgrading to an O-360 -- that's what I have with a CS prop and I love it. That said I think the used RV market is pretty good right now so I think you'd be able to get a decent price for it without having to make expensive upgrades.
 
+ 3 .. What caused the engine to quit ?

I took the bait, but I wonder: Anyone else feeling shades of EARL? :rolleyes:
 
Hmm maybe...the story does not quite ring true.

N196DJ is not currently showing as registered on FAA database.

Here is a link to the accident report:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/241191

Paperwork is taking longer than usual for registrations. I had my pink sheet/copy with me.



Status -
I was able to do a preliminary fit up of the elevators yesterday, both are temporarily in place. I am working on installing electric trim and needed to get some length measurements. I purchased a T3-12A roy allen servo and an A-950 control arm linkage and will be doing something very similar to this http://www.romeolima.com/rv3/rv3works/airframe/airframe.html#ElectricTrim
 
I think the comment about earl is that the OP won't answer the question "What caused the engine to quit?"
He seems to keep dodging that one. ..
 
I think the comment about earl is that the OP won't answer the question "What caused the engine to quit?"
He seems to keep dodging that one. ..

To be completely honest, I'm still not 100% sure. When we (a reputable experimental/airboat engine mechanic and I) took it apart, there was nothing obvious as to why all the oil went out the exhaust. We did find a cracked cylinder near the exhaust valve with a very odd burn pattern on the spark plug (half white, half black ceramic insulator) but have not investigated it further. The only obvious thing was that it overheated, which we already knew.

When I find out more, I'll let everyone know.


Spent yesterday making a plate to mount my trim servo. Came out decent if I may say so myself!

https://imgur.com/jXVy4TT
https://imgur.com/Lws557C
 
To be completely honest, I'm still not 100% sure. When we (a reputable experimental/airboat engine mechanic and I) took it apart, there was nothing obvious as to why all the oil went out the exhaust. We did find a cracked cylinder near the exhaust valve with a very odd burn pattern on the spark plug (half white, half black ceramic insulator) but have not investigated it further. The only obvious thing was that it overheated, which we already knew.

Does your plane have an electronic engine monitor? From the sounds of it, you didn't see the engine temperatures rising in flight. You don't need anything fancy, even a good-old-ugly GRT EIS would have given you a heads-up on your temperatures and oil pressure and possibly given you enough time to avoid your beach landing. If you don't have one, you should install one during your rebuild.

Good luck!
 
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Does your plane have an electronic engine monitor? From the sounds of it, you didn't see the engine temperatures rising in flight. You don't need anything fancy, even a good-old-ugly GRT EIS would have given you a heads-up on your temperatures and oil pressure and possibly given you enough time to avoid your beach landing. If you don't have one, you should install one during your rebuild.

Good luck!

It had/has one installed yes, however the gauges are so old the plastic on the faces are shriveled and unreadable.

Oddly enough I was already in the process of working on a new panel which would have included a skyview and engine monitor to replace everything. Now the money for that project will be used for repairs. =\
 
It had/has one installed yes, however the gauges are so old the plastic on the faces are shriveled and unreadable.

Oddly enough I was already in the process of working on a new panel which would have included a skyview and engine monitor to replace everything. Now the money for that project will be used for repairs. =\

To heck with the Skyview or any other EFIS... but you really shouldn't fly it again without a working engine monitor. I'll bet if you put out an ad here in the Classifieds you'd get someone out there willing to sell you a GRT EIS. I mention that one because it's simple, cheap, self-contained with its own screen and very reliable.
 
Instruments for the Motor

So, Zack, you did have working (readable?) engine gauges in the airplane when you flew, right? We're required to have oil pressure, tach and some kind of temperature indicating instrument... oil temp, CHT, whatever. The cheap way to get an engine analyzer is to watch for someone who's upgrading and willing to sell the one they're replacing. KatieB is on the right track for sure. I got a howling great deal from a buddy on a Dynon D10. It will replace the round steam engine gauge hodgepodge in our RV-6 at the next condition inspection in April. It might even clear enough panel space for a glove box!
 
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The history - I used to work at my local airport and knew of an RV6A slowly dying in a hangar. The owner stopped flying it and it sat for the last 8 years at least.

Sounds familiar Zack. Did it come from Tuscaloosa?
 
Hmm maybe...the story does not quite ring true.

N196DJ is not currently showing as registered on FAA database.

Here is a link to the accident report:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/241191

It took almost 3 months for the FAA to get the registration of my airplane transferred from the previous owner to me. I understand it can take longer than that to re-register if it's been de-registered. In the meantime, you can carry the application around in the plane while you're waiting for the FAA to grind out the paperwork. Legal to fly, but looking on the internet might only show the plane's registration status from several months ago.
 
Be careful.......

In the meantime, you can carry the application around in the plane while you're waiting for the FAA to grind out the paperwork. Legal to fly, but looking on the internet might only show the plane's registration status from several months ago.

This is true if you purchase an aircraft that's already been certificated.

It is NOT true for an aircraft that's not been certificate. The application copy is NOT legitimate for a new certification of the aircraft.
 
This is true if you purchase an aircraft that's already been certificated.

It is NOT true for an aircraft that's not been certificate. The application copy is NOT legitimate for a new certification of the aircraft.

Point being...FAA registration data available on the various websites may lag reality by at least a couple of months.
 
ain’t the first time... but how aggressive you gals/guys are, wtf...

Some (newish) member encounters major trouble and he is getting terminated :(

What about some encouraging or/and constructive comments?

Zack, well done on that beach landing, good choice, didn’t kill anyone, all good.
Thanks for reporting here on the too famous VAF.
Well done on you and your pax getting out, amazing stuff.
Thanks for the FB about your engine trouble, we can all learn about it.

I sincerely hope the repairs don’t be too long nor expensive and wish we’ll meet some day, beers will be on me :cool:
 
ain’t the first time... but how aggressive you gals/guys are, wtf...

I was just trying to help. I don't think I was being judgmental or aggressive at all. From his description of the events, engine overheating and oil loss, and my personal experience with such things, I knew an engine monitor is a great tool to help see that stuff before it lunches your engine and forces a landing. And he said he didn't have working engine instruments, so I suggested a cheap way to get some.

I do agree that some of the posts on this thread were a bit edgy though. Back when I was really active on this forum from 2010-2017, it seemed to be a much friendlier place.

So anyway, welcome, Zack. I hope you find all the answers you need here.
 
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Zack,

I see from your pic that you are rebuilding the VS and rudder. The wings look like they took some damage. How did that turn out?
 
ain’t the first time... but how aggressive you gals/guys are, wtf...

Some (newish) member encounters major trouble and he is getting terminated :(

What about some encouraging or/and constructive comments?

Zack, well done on that beach landing, good choice, didn’t kill anyone, all good.
Thanks for reporting here on the too famous VAF.
Well done on you and your pax getting out, amazing stuff.
Thanks for the FB about your engine trouble, we can all learn about it.

I sincerely hope the repairs don’t be too long nor expensive and wish we’ll meet some day, beers will be on me :cool:


I think a lot of members here don't want RVs, and experimentals (as well as GA in general) to get a bad reputation for being unsafe, and falling out of the sky. Between "Earl" bragging about going 30+ knots over Vne, blowing off members here trying to educate him, this accident flying without readable oil pressure and oil temperature guages, planes having full electrical failure at night over mountains due to maintenance error (and perhaps pilot judgement) come on. .we're trying to keep insurance from skyrocketing, and keeping aviation out of the news in general. .you don't need a full on engine monitor, but at least get some guages that are usable. .
I'm hoping this doesn't discourage the cockpit confessions here, we all want to learn from these instances, that's why there is so much curiosity about why the engine quit, or what could have been done to prevent it...
 
To all those curious, yes I was fully compliant with 91.205. The engine gauges required were working as they should. The cht's/egts and all other "monitor" related items were the gauges that were unusable. There was a set of 4 gauges for the ems and they were all flakey. Not sure if they were just cheap or what but the rest of the gauges survived the 8 year hangar jail just fine.

Side note: I used to own a grumman yankee - almost indistinguishable from a 6A and it never had any engine monitor installed. I am very used to flying without the instruments and therefore didnt think they were all that necessary. Lesson learned I guess.

I am here today and learned quite a few things in the process, soooo... Success!!


Went to the paint store yesterday for some aluminum wash, purple scuff pads, 2k primer and some other things, will post updates as they come.


Thanks for the kind words and interest in my well being and regulatory compliance! You guys give me a reason to keep working. Not going to lie, the airport is a lot less cheerful lately.
 
Zack,

I see from your pic that you are rebuilding the VS and rudder. The wings look like they took some damage. How did that turn out?

I actually bought a kit locally from an old timer (best 5k ever I think) that gave up. He had everything completed except the fuse. Wings, tail, control surfaces, all crated. Almost a match made in heaven.

Anyways, my wings got some skin damage on the edges. They are repairable if need be however, I'm planning to use my new ones.
 
Sounds familiar Zack. Did it come from Tuscaloosa?

Nope, came from Melbourne area. Guy at my local airport lost his flying buddy to cancer I believe and it sorta died with him. I knew it was in a hangar and I couldn't watch it sit there anymore so I offered him and he sold it.
 
To all those curious, yes I was fully compliant with 91.205. ......
Thanks for the kind words and interest in my well being and regulatory compliance!

Well, as a matter of fact, and despite a previous post to the contrary, compliance with FAR 91.205 is not required for an EAB if operated day, VFR, only. It's just a good idea.
 
Well, as a matter of fact, and despite a previous post to the contrary, compliance with FAR 91.205 is not required for an EAB if operated day, VFR, only. It's just a good idea.

But he was NOT flying Day VFR. And by virtue of Operating Limitations, 91.205 does indeed apply for nighttime operations.
 
But he was NOT flying Day VFR. And by virtue of Operating Limitations, 91.205 does indeed apply for nighttime operations.

Wow... *sigh* The internet seems to loose a lot in translation.


And Bob I actually didn't know that! Interesting.
 
I actually bought a kit locally from an old timer (best 5k ever I think) that gave up. He had everything completed except the fuse. Wings, tail, control surfaces, all crated. Almost a match made in heaven.

Anyways, my wings got some skin damage on the edges. They are repairable if need be however, I'm planning to use my new ones.

Just a bit of friendly advice and caution on using the new wings... the mounting holes that bolt the spars to the fuselage bulkhead will probably not line up because the early RV models were not CNC identical. The wing spars and fuselage bulkheads came match drilled as a set and they are not generally interchangeable. So the better option may be to repair the existing wings if the spars are still OK.
 
??? Accident report says 9:15 am.

Sorry about that. Getting threads mixed up. I was thinking about "Lost electric at night over mountains" thread. I must be working too hard.

Time for beddy-by! No more inspections 'till next year.
 
Just a bit of friendly advice and caution on using the new wings... the mounting holes that bolt the spars to the fuselage bulkhead will probably not line up because the early RV models were not CNC identical. The wing spars and fuselage bulkheads came match drilled as a set and they are not generally interchangeable. So the better option may be to repair the existing wings if the spars are still OK.

+1
Another one would be the rear spars... those are match drilled to the fuse fork, and unless your spare wings are not drilled, the holes will most probably not align...
 
Just a bit of friendly advice and caution on using the new wings... the mounting holes that bolt the spars to the fuselage bulkhead will probably not line up because the early RV models were not CNC identical. The wing spars and fuselage bulkheads came match drilled as a set and they are not generally interchangeable. So the better option may be to repair the existing wings if the spars are still OK.

I agree.
Mismatched holes could be enlarged for over sized bolts but they are expensive and likely won’t be enough to resolve the mismatch on all holes. The F-605 bulkhead could be swapped to resolve the hole mismatch problem but would be a lot more work than repairing the damage on the original wings.
 
Just a bit of friendly advice and caution on using the new wings... the mounting holes that bolt the spars to the fuselage bulkhead will probably not line up because the early RV models were not CNC identical. The wing spars and fuselage bulkheads came match drilled as a set and they are not generally interchangeable. So the better option may be to repair the existing wings if the spars are still OK.

+1
Another one would be the rear spars... those are match drilled to the fuse fork, and unless your spare wings are not drilled, the holes will most probably not align...

I agree.
Mismatched holes could be enlarged for over sized bolts but they are expensive and likely won’t be enough to resolve the mismatch on all holes. The F-605 bulkhead could be swapped to resolve the hole mismatch problem but would be a lot more work than repairing the damage on the original wings.

I had a discussion with someone from Vans about this as I was concerned as well. I spoke with numerous other builders and they all said the same thing - the holes wont line up.....

I am going to give it a shot, my old spar doubler and new wings seem to be a dang close match.

https://imgur.com/AOlNnfT

When I go to install them, I am going to try the bolts in dry ice trick to squeeze a little extra room before they expand. According to this site (https://goodcalculators.com/thermal-expansion-calculator/) using dry ice should get close to 1/2 thou extra room.

If that doesnt work, ill be reaming and using oversize bolts. New bolts came with my spare kit and oversize bolts cheapest I could find are around $27 ea. =\
 
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I had a discussion with someone from Vans about this as I was concerned as well. I spoke with numerous other builders and they all said the same thing - the holes wont line up.....

I am going to give it a shot, my old spar doubler and new wings seem to be a dang close match.

https://imgur.com/AOlNnfT

When I go to install them, I am going to try the bolts in dry ice trick to squeeze a little extra room before they expand. According to this site (https://goodcalculators.com/thermal-expansion-calculator/) using dry ice should get close to 1/2 thou extra room.

If that doesnt work, ill be reaming and using oversize bolts. New bolts came with my spare kit and oversize bolts cheapest I could find are around $27 ea. =\

Hopefully you are aware that the NAS bolts in the center splice plates are only part of the equation. All of the AN3 bolts were match drilled to the center as well (an then match drilled to the main gear weldments by the build during construction).

I have rebuilt a RV-6A that had been flipped on its back (with more damage than yours appears to have sustained) so I know the level of damage your wings likely have.
I have been working on RV's for a long time and there is no way I would choose replacing the wings over repairing the originals, unless there was some very questionable workmanship from the original builder.
 
January Update

Progress since my last post has been a little less than desirable. I spent a few days cleaning up and reorganizing the hangar enough to move around again.

Airframe-
I have begun the process of fitting my new wings. For all who have said it would be easier to repair my old wings, I appreciate your insight and advice! I completely expect to have to undo some of my progress and revert back to using my old wings when I hit an impass. Until then I am going to attempt to use my new ones.

So far, the fit is better than expected. I fitted the pilot side wing last week to check fit and hole allignment. Everything looks spot on! I installed 6 out of the 8 spar bolts without issue. They went in snugly with a rubber mallet after being coated with corrosionX. The remaining 2 were rather inconvenient and I used up my allotment of cursewords for the day so I called it quits. The smaller AN holes lined up as well and I got many started by hand without trying too hard.

I have a new set of landing gear weldments I can use/drill if necessary, but so far I believe everything will line up.


Engine-
There was a guy at my field that started building an rv7 a few years ago and recently gave up. He sold his kit to a friend of mine that insists on an o-360, leaving his pile of o-320 parts needing a new home.

All his parts were either new or overhauled with yellow tags. I got a 320 case, crank, new cam, oil pan, 4 overhauled chrome complete cylinders, OH mags, inverted oil system, and enough spare parts to build 2 engines. All this for a whopping steal-of-a-deal of six thousand bucks ($6000):D:D:D:D:D. He had all the paperwork including work orders, receipts, and tags for everything. I lost count after 12k in receipts. I didnt have the heart to even try to negotiate a lower price, I just payed the guy and ran like ****. I took everything over to my engine guy and hope to start assembling this weekend!!!!

Side note: it came with an overhauled dynafocal case with a direct cam lubrication mod. Unfortunately I have a conical mount in my -6A :( and Vans doesnt sell -6A engine mounts anymore. They do sell -7A mounts but dont guarantee that it will work with the 6's. In everyone's opinion...is dynafocal worth getting a new mount and trying to fit it, or just clean and reuse my old case???? Anyone have experience with 7A mounts on a 6??? If someone out there has a -6A dynafocal mount for sale at a decent price hit me up ;);) Curiosity question: Will a 7_ mount work in a 6A if you cut the gear legs off with a cutoff wheel?

Job update-
I was hired by a regional airline last february and then COVID delayed my training. I had my house for sale, wife and I both quit our jobs and packed up our lives and then.... the world stopped. Long story short, my job called and they are reinstating training! I have a class date! Not sure how the -6 rebuild will be affected. Unemployment is stressful and I cant wait to get back in the air again.

Please comment on the engine mount topic as I am at a crossroads! Thank you all for your advice.
 
Please comment on the engine mount topic as I am at a crossroads! Thank you all for your advice.

It is not very hard (or expensive) to have the case mount modified between conical and Dynafocal - has to be done at a case shop like DIVCO, but I think I have a few hundred dollars mentioned.
 
It is not very hard (or expensive) to have the case mount modified between conical and Dynafocal - has to be done at a case shop like DIVCO, but I think I have a few hundred dollars mentioned.

This particular case was already modified from conical to dynafocal =\

Im not sure if it can be changed back or if it is even a good idea to keep changing it.
 
engine mount

I have a 6A and recently converted to the new revised nose gear, which includes a new engine mount. If you are considering a change of mount, it seems an elegant and well executed redesign.
I do not believe that the 6A and 7A original engine mounts are of different design. When I ordered the 6A finishing kit, the 7A was in production and I believe the mounts were the same.
If you do change the mount, you can expect that the weldment may not be identical to your original in terms of mount hole location, and position of engine, which may involve cowling, baffle and air intake mods. Van's service letter offering and describing the new revised nose gear describes the changes that may result from changing the engine mount. These changes would largely apply whether you went with the original or revised mount. With the revised mount,with a vertical induction engine, I found it necessary to modify the cowling slightly, and relocate the throttle and mixture cables, both to run through the lower part of the governor firewall cut out box. The revised nose gear engine mount incorporates pads at the firewall mounting points that have sufficient tolerance to accommodate the existing firewall bolt holes.
 
This particular case was already modified from conical to dynafocal =\

Im not sure if it can be changed back or if it is even a good idea to keep changing it.

A quick phone cal to DIVCO can answer that question - and you could share what they say here! ;)
 
Parts on order

Decided to reuse my old case and sell my my new/recert dynafocal one. I would rather not mess with anything and have my engine in the exact same place.

Ordered a whole list from Vans including canopy, canopy frame, a few fiberglass pieces, and am getting the nose fork upgrade with a new front gear leg and match drilling service. All for $2.5k. Expensive canopy. I bought one for my old grumman yankee it was $400 and certified. =\

Also bought some flex brake lines for fuse to caliper run (40 inches -an4) and new wheels and brakes from MATCO.

I also decided to go with dual emags (p model) for ignition and am selling 2 sets of slick mags. 1 set overhauled 0 hrs. and my old set that has time on them. If anyone is interested dm me.

Things are starting to feel expensive. :eek:
 
Be aware that a friend just had a Rocket engine overhaul by a shop in FL that does airboats and experimental engines. At 10 hours after OH the cylinder bolts started breaking and luckily he noticed something awry before catastrophe.

Seems the airboat engine builders like to put silicone as a gasket on the cylinder base. It seems to work ok for airboats which don’t have long constant power output like aircraft and can pull over if an issue.

On an aircraft with constant power output for long periods, the silicone enables the torque on the bolts to vary which results in the bolts getting pounded to oblivion and then breaking.

The engine builder didn’t step up and it was an expensive lesson.
 
Be aware that a friend just had a Rocket engine overhaul by a shop in FL that does airboats and experimental engines. At 10 hours after OH the cylinder bolts started breaking and luckily he noticed something awry before catastrophe.

Seems the airboat engine builders like to put silicone as a gasket on the cylinder base. It seems to work ok for airboats which don’t have long constant power output like aircraft and can pull over if an issue.

On an aircraft with constant power output for long periods, the silicone enables the torque on the bolts to vary which results in the bolts getting pounded to oblivion and then breaking.

The engine builder didn’t step up and it was an expensive lesson.

Thanks for the info! My engine guy refuses to use silicone and I have a complete gasket set for reassembly. Really good info though, I thought silicone was better tbh =\
 
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