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Need help understanding some iPad apps

Darren S

Well Known Member
I'm on the verge of getting an iPad 2, 32G with 3G to use when flying. I can see the many benefits.

Thing is it appears that Sky Charts doesn't have Canadian maps and I'm not sure what Fore Flight has for Canadian airports.

Also, is the 3G capability strong enough to get internet access while at 9,000 feet ?

Thanks,

Darren
 
3G will not work reliably above about 800ft AGL. Sure the occasional fast text msg might get thru but surfing or large downloads forget it....
 
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Not sure about Foreflight and data for Canada. I wouldn't count on getting 3G coverage at altitude, but with Foreflight you don't need it anyway, charts and airport data are stored locally. The only thing you really lose without data coverage is weather info.
 
Darren,

SkyCharts does not have Canadian charts. However, the portions of Canada that appear on US Sectionals do appear. SkyCharts scans the current US charts, so everything that is on the paper charts is in SkyCharts. Pretty good Canadian coverage in the East, (Toronto & Montreal) not very good in the Midwest but good north of Seattle. Been using SkyCharts for over a year and love it.

Jim Butcher
Europa XS
 
Also, is the 3G capability strong enough to get internet access while at 9,000 feet ?

I doubt it will work when that high. Back in March, I was skirting around the Little Rock class C airspace at about 3,500 feet and was getting intermittent connections - but it was enough use instant messenger to chit chat with my wife back home for a few minutes. I was actually surprised.
 
I would get the 3G just for the GPS. The WiFi only version does not have a built-in GPS. You could get the wifi version plus the Bad-Elf external GPS. It will probably have a bit better accuracy but I like having it all built in.

As for Canada data, I just checked ForeFlight. It has VFR/IFR downloads for New Brunswick, Ontario, and Quebec.

Here are screenshots from both ForeFlight and Garmin (sorry they're a big large) ...
http://53vg.com/share/sectional-foreflight.png
http://53vg.com/share/sectional-garmin.png
 
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I know that yapping on a cell phone in flight is not allowed. Does this apply to 3G? Does is apply to leaving 3G on so that AGPS will work on an iPad 2? I am not talking about streaming Lady Gaga videos - just leaving it on. The GPS by itself does not appear to work nearly as well with 3G turned off.
 
The AGPS only helps with the initial acquisition. I leave the 3G off 100% of the time on my iPad 2 and it still acquires GPS very quickly and stays pretty accurate. I'd bet the Bad Elf is more accurate but 3-5meters reported by ForeFlight works for my VFR enroute flying.
 
Thanks for the help guys. I plan on getting the 3G version even though it costs a bit more. I'll see if I need the Bad Elf for added GPS connectivity once I fly it for a while.

My hope is that on the ramp before takeoff I can get current Weather, Metar, Taf etc..... via 3G and even though I'll lose connectivity to the internet once I take off, the latest data will remain in the iPad for my later reference.

Is that how you guys do it on a Cross Country ?

Thanks,

Darren
 
I would get the 3G just for the GPS. The WiFi only version does not have a built-in GPS. You could get the wifi version plus the Bad-Elf external GPS. It will probably have a bit better accuracy but I like having it all built in.

I've read this in several places, but am seriously wondering if Apple has changed that. I bought Wi-Fi only 64 GB iPad-2 about a month ago (via Apple.com) and have since installed a bunch of apps, including ForeFlight. I also bought a GNS 5870 MFI Bluetooth GPS.

With the Bluetooth GPS turned off and the iPad NOT connected to Wi-Fi, I get no GPS/position/speed information. This is consistent when what I've read. Even the iPads that have GPS built-in have only "assisted" GPS that requires either Wi-Fi or 3G to get the GPS satellite almanac data.

With the Bluetooth GPS turned off and the iPad connected to Wi-Fi, I get GPS/position/speed information to an accuracy of typically 100 meters. This is the part that surprises me, but it's true, I swear! I can drive to a coffee shop in town, leave my Bluetooth GPS at home, and my position changes as soon as I reconnect to the Wi-Fi in the coffee shop. I definitely ordered and paid for the non-3G iPad. If anyone here knows how I can confirm for sure that I don't have the 3G unit (vs. Apple sending me a 3G unit even though I didn't pay for it), let me know.

With my Bluetooth GPS turned on, the iPad shows my GPS/position/speed to an accuracy of typically 10 meters, regardless of whether or not I'm connected to Wi-Fi (or 3G -- I don't have a 3G subscription either).

I've used ForeFlight in flight a few times now (so far only in Cessnas and Beechcraft), and I think I really like it. Reading the screen in direct sunlight has been easier than I feared (though the brightness must be turned all the way up). I used it at night as well, and since both the iPad and ForeFlight have a "dimness" control that are "additive" with each other (you can dim the iPad to the max, then dim it even more from within ForeFlight), you can dim the screen down very nicely. You can also invert all the colors on the display which can help further (e.g., draws an approach plate with white on black instead of the default black on white).

One problem I've had is accidentally changing screen views because my wrist or another finger touches part of the screen and the app reacts accordingly. You can "lock" approach plates but it really only locks the orientation. It'd be nice if it locked down everything except the "unlock" button, so that if you're flying an approach in bumpy conditions and/or in a cramped cockpit, you can pull up the plate you need and leave it there without fear of accidentally changing screens and having to try to figure out what happened while flying a critical phase of flight. I've had similar problems even on the ground, while planning a route using the VFR sectionals. On several occasions I've added lat/long user waypoints to my route without meaning to do so! An inadvertent touch of the screen can easily do that. But all in all, I really do like the app, and the iPad, and have been very happy that I spent my money on it (and Bluetooth GPS and ForeFlight subscription) vs. twice as much on a really nice Garmin GPS.

Oh, a few more quick comments on the iPad, ForeFlight, and the GNS 5870 Bluetooth GPS:

The iPad 2 has a couple of pretty powerful magnets in it for the optional cover (which also has magnets). They don't seem to interfere with the built-in magnetic compass capability of the iPad (how do they do that?), but they could affect the magnetic compass in your aircraft. Check it out in your plane with the iPad situated where you'll normally use it in flight.

ForeFlight doesn't show you the chart legend, so you need to look up a symbol you'll need another source. It does mark airspace hours however -- tap on a restricted area and it'll tell you the days and hours that it's hot (transferred from the end panel of the sectional, which you can't access in ForeFlight).

If, in ForeFlight, you zoom in enough at area where a TAC exists (such as KSEA), the TAC is displayed instead of the sectional, which is really cool. However, this is only true if a separate TAC chart exists. For areas like KPDX, where there is a "mini TAC" for just the Class C area on a chart panel (paper sectional), you're out of luck with ForeFlight. No matter how far you zoom into KPDX you get only sectional data.

I'm still looking for a good app that will store my flight track for later review on Google Earth, etc. Advise if you have any recommendations. I wish ForeFlight would do it.

I love the Bluetooth GPS. Throw it on the dash or stick it to a window with the provided suction cup and away you go. No wires whatsoever, and since both it and the iPad have 10-hour batteries, you're set for a whole day of flying. However, the GNS 5870 is turned on and off not by a physical switch, but rather through a "swipe" of your finger. It's easy to accidentally turn it on while sticking the unit in your pocket and run down the battery. It'll auto-shutoff if there is no Bluetooth connection for 15 minutes, but if my iPad is within 25 feet or so of me, I'm hosed, as the Bluetooth connection will remain. Also, sometimes the "swipe sensor" doesn't respond (my finger isn't "human" enough???), and I have difficulty turning the GPS on or off. I may consider buying a different Bluetooth GPS, which has a physical on/off switch.

OK, sorry for getting carried away. I do love my iPad though! ;-)
 
My hope is that on the ramp before takeoff I can get current Weather, Metar, Taf etc..... via 3G and even though I'll lose connectivity to the internet once I take off, the latest data will remain in the iPad for my later reference.

Is that how you guys do it on a Cross Country ?

No. It's not how I do it.

The weather data is indeed cached in ForeFlight/iPad, so you can refer to it in flight *if* you looked at that particular weather data while connected to the Internet. But what you're looking at an hour later (the cached data) is old, and possibly dramatically different than the present reality.

Since I don't have XM/WX or ADS-B weather feeds, I still call FlightWatch on 122.0 for the very latest enroute and destination weather once I'm in the air.

Tempting: you can also buy a Skyradar ADS-B receiver for about $1,000 that sits on your dash and interfaces to your iPad running the WingX Pro7 app, and get free (no subscription) in-flight weather. I don't have any experience with WingX or Skyradar, however. I have used a Garmin 496 with XM/WX weather in the past and it doesn't take long to get hooked!
 
With the Bluetooth GPS turned off and the iPad NOT connected to Wi-Fi, I get no GPS/position/speed information. This is consistent when what I've read. Even the iPads that have GPS built-in have only "assisted" GPS that requires either Wi-Fi or 3G to get the GPS satellite almanac data.

I'm not sure why we are having different experience. With my iPad 2 3G, I have no data subscription so I have clicked the setting that turns off 3G completely. iPad has no problem getting a GPS fix.

A track record would be nice but I use APRS which not only lets me review a track, but also let's my family track my flight in real time. It you are curious about APRS, there's a forum here on VAF dedicated to it.
 
With the Bluetooth GPS turned off and the iPad NOT connected to Wi-Fi, I get no GPS/position/speed information.

This is correct. Since you bought the non-3G iPad, it does not have a GPS and will not give you position data if it has no Wi-Fi data signal.


Even the iPads that have GPS built-in have only "assisted" GPS that requires either Wi-Fi or 3G to get the GPS satellite almanac data.

This is incorrect. The GPS in the 3G iPads is a "real" GPS and works fine without any 3G or Wi-Fi signal.


With the Bluetooth GPS turned off and the iPad connected to Wi-Fi, I get GPS/position/speed information to an accuracy of typically 100 meters.

This is correct. The non-3G iPad will triangulate position data based off known Wi-Fi locations, such as Starbucks, McDonalds, etc. This is the same as the original iPhone.

-Dj
 
This is incorrect. The GPS in the 3G iPads is a "real" GPS and works fine without any 3G or Wi-Fi signal.

Interesting! I stand corrected then.

So, according to your info., it appears that the 3G iPad 2 has a true GPS (no 3G or Wi-Fi needed), and the Wi-Fi only iPad 2 has an assisted GPS that needs either 3G or Wi-Fi to get the satellite orbital data that true/full GPS receivers can receive directly from the satellites.

I'll do more tests and see if my iPad 2 ever reports GPS position when not connected to Wi-Fi or to my Bluetooth GPS. I will say that it *has* reported position information in this case before, but it was a trick! It was reporting "last known" position. It's an irritating behavior, in that, at times, my iPad 2 apps (including ForeFlight) show a GPS position that's just dead wrong. It has shown my position the last time it was connected to Wi-Fi or my Bluetooth GPS, with no indication that it's not receiving a valid GPS position at the moment. This has happened in flight as well. My Bluetooth GPS lost satellite lock for a time but ForeFlight still said I had 10m GPS accuracy, with a speed of zero and a position of where I was some minutes earlier (I was flying at 6,000' and NOT hovering or in a strong headwind!). I have learned to check that the displayed GPS data on the iPad looks "about right" -- speed/altitude/course -- before believing what it's telling me. At other times, I have seen "No Fix" displayed on the iPad (ForeFlight), so it's definitely able to do that. It just gets it wrong sometimes! I'll add that I'm not yet 100% clear on whether this problem is only when the GNS 5870 is in use or also with the built-in iPad GPS.
 
So, according to your info., it appears that the 3G iPad 2 has a true GPS (no 3G or Wi-Fi needed), and the Wi-Fi only iPad 2 has an assisted GPS that needs either 3G or Wi-Fi to get the satellite orbital data that true/full GPS receivers can receive directly from the satellites.

The iPad without 3G has NO physical GPS in it at all. It uses a triangulation method from the radio signals it receives from Wi-Fi, plus information from the Skyhook database that maps out known Wi-Fi Access Points.

This article has a decent explanation of how it works:
http://www.techradar.com/blogs/article/how-the-iphone-s-wi-fi-location-works-201138

-Dj
 
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