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UAVs, RPAs aka "drones"

Don

Well Known Member
Coincidentally I attended a presentation on the military's use of "drones" last week that was offered by the Virginia Aeronautical History Association. It was informative and thought provoking and put my mind at ease about the military's use of drones in US airspace. It did make me wonder about what other government agencies might be doing but I try not to get too paranoid. My main interest is in not hitting one of these unmanned aerial vehicles in my RV.

And then I saw this in my morning news feed.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=98BIu9dpwHU

Amazon is saying 86% of its orders could potentially be filled by UAVs. Besides making me rethink my investment strategies (how long do you hold stock in UPS?), it's making me think we really need to be aware of the rule making going on regarding UAVs. This has the potential to make a bird strike seem like your lucky day compared to a drone strike. There will likely be more UAVs around than geese in a few years.

So, not to be an alarmist, but here is a heads up we all need to pay attention to and figure out how we'll share the air space safely.
 
Correct you are Don. I've been monitoring that this morning. He's, CEO Bezos, quoting 30 minute delivery. We do have reason to be VERY concerned about this.
 
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I don't think you have much to worry about with those "consumer package deliver drones". To be honest, I would have expected this on April 1st but I guess the idea needs to start somewhere.

The current generation has a very small lift capacity (single digit lbs); the packaging is cost prohibitive, a short battery flight life (10-15 minutes); and are not very fast (20 mph but that speed dramatically shortens flight time).

The current technology has less than 2 miles radius of travel.
 
What I have not seen is the "actual" drone traffic vs the "official" drone traffic.

One personal anecdote - I witnessed - what I assume to be - a research version of the Predator traveling fast at about 500' in my area a few months back. I suspect that "excursion" was not in the official records.
 
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Watch out!

We had a presentation from the CEO of a 'drone' agency last month. Colorado is on the short list for area in which to prove the concept of integrating UAS/UAVs into the general airspace. They are touting these things for everything from traffic watch, fire watch to monitoring ice formatin, river conditions, snow pack, to wildlife surveys, pipeline surveys, etc. They claim that amount the civilian uses will dwarf the amount of military uses. They also claim the UAVs can remain airborne for many many hours, and do have significant payload ( I have not heard about the Amazon angle). While I wasn't incredibly assured, the guy that spoke to us went to great lengths to explain how the UAVS will have the smarts to avoid us, so we don't need to be concerned.

So don't worry...

DD
 
A whole new layer of noise and congestion, and another law on the books concerning drone interference and/or drone-jacking.

It may be a few years away yet. But, I have faith in human nature. If we can find a way to not do something ourselves, we will.
 
Drone Package Delivery

I saw the bit about Amazon on 60 minutes, this is a neat concept and I think it would have little impact on regular Aviation. The ground package delivery guys will take the hit most likely. I do thing there are a lot of bugs to workout but think about it these things could have there own low altitude <300 feet routes.

The Amazon drones are said to be autonomous, they would fly a programed route to the delivery address. These could be routes that fly along existing highways and streets and avoid airports, they could carry transponders so they could be seen by others flying in the airspace, after all the air picture will be totally data link by 2025 or nearly so. The helicopter guys are the ones that will be impacted the most since they spend a lot more time below 500'.

My wife came up with the biggest hurdle Amazon has to get past, how do you drop a package in the yard with the retriever is trying to fetch the drone!

The world it is a changing, grab on and enjoy the ride!.
 
What I have not seen is the "actual" drone traffic vs the "official" drone traffic.

One personal anecdote - I witnessed - what I assume to be - a research version of the Predator traveling fast at about 500' in my area a few months back. I suspect that "excursion" was not in the official records.

It probably was logged... check with your local universities...:)

Drones will be ?a huge industry in the future,? predicted New Jersey resident Michael Henderson, part of the Mid-Atlantic Aviation Partnership, one of dozens of similar groups vying for six test sites to be selected by the FAA There were 25 applicants from 24 states competing for the FAA-certified sites as of May 13, according to the FAA. Henderson said he hopes a joint effort by New Jersey and Virginia under the auspices of the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University will be named one of the finalists.
 
I have personal opinions about this matter which I will keep to myself. My request/suggestion to each of you that has a concern is to do some research on who applied. Once you find the team around your area that applied, volunteer yourself and your pilot experience. Don?t just say it will cause safety issues (or whatever other issues) to a group of people which cannot affect a change. Give examples to those that can make a difference on how the potential of implementing UAS into your local airspace will affect your flying and the local population. Also give them examples on how to mitigate those risks you have identified.

That is what I did/I am doing. You can also do the same if it is important to you.

The FAA is on the hook to announce the 6 centers this month.

BTW, I used the term ?you? as the plural ?you?. Was not trying to point anyone out.
 
Good advice

That is sound thinking Axel as drones are coming for certain. I believe there will be mass usage. I want one. :) Actually, companies like Amazon using them doesn't concern me as much as some of our fellow citizens.

There will be outlaws among the users. Deer hunting season is open in many states. I go to altitude promptly in my area. I know of nitwits that think it great sport to take a shot at an aircraft.

I'll live with it; but, as a former prosecutor, I've seen some folks do some REALLY stupid things. Just saying.

Cheers,
 
I am fascinated with everything UAS. I know where launchers in my area are and I am constantly looking for anything unmanned. Nothing seen outside of Restricted areas yet. Thanks Axel for great suggestions.
 
Hi ya'll,

I've written a fair amount of drone software (including a small amount of the code in that amazon drone - they used our open source hw/sw project). The Amazon thing is just marketing hype at this point (lots needs to happen for API level management of airspace, better solution to the urban canyon gps problem, better maps etc...).

But... There is currently very active work to open up (very low altitude < 400' agl) airspace for eventual full auto use of this space. I think it will be great.
 
In the briefing I received for a 300 NM flight I made over Thanksgiving, there were no fewer than 13 (count 'em!) NOTAMs for unmanned aerial vehicles along the way. The list seems to be getting longer by the month.
 
In the briefing I received for a 300 NM flight I made over Thanksgiving, there were no fewer than 13 (count 'em!) NOTAMs for unmanned aerial vehicles along the way. The list seems to be getting longer by the month.

With the inevitable increase in drone traffic, I sure hope they plan to have ADS-B out capability.
 
Not only "drone-hunting" but also "hunting with drones" may occur. Spot the prey and herd it towards you. States can write laws pretty fast to outlaw this kind of thing though. Anyone have a list of strange potential uses for UAVs?
Drop supplies accurately to stranded hikers/climbers/crash survivors.
Faster finding with camera-inspection of downed aircraft via ELT or EPIRB or Personal Locater beacon homing.
Virtual trips to nude beaches
 
good guys, 'n bad guys

and then there's the 'other' guys.....
around here, I hate to say, certain people will be hiring high-skool kids to fly these over all of their multiple mountainside grow ops to provide security...and then they can dispatch an interdiction team should they see their crop being disturbed, or law enforcement getting too close.
...and you can bet you won't get a NOTAM about those!..nor will they be follwing the 'rules'.
 
RV is the Best drone Defense

I suggest to climb fast and fly high. All the civilian drones will will be below you.
 
BaeD3juIMAAF4Ek3.jpg
 
Bad, bad idea completely.

The phrase, "What could possibly go wrong?" is all over this thing.
 
I heard Doug is selling his Cub and buying a drone to use for spotting deer and wild pigs. Much safer than that "flying" stuff and cheaper, too ... There really is no downside.

Might be just a rumor...
 
I, for one, welcome our new drone ovelords.


Really, though, the range on the civilian RC drones are fairly low (about a mile for a few thousand bucks) which will price most people out of the market. Most anything else would be deemed illegal under FCC regulations without a HAM radio license. Now let's get into weight. Your average hobby drone is around 10 lbs. A turkey or goose? A little heavier, and there are millions of those flying around. I don't really see the issue until these things start having onboard maps and inertial navigation where they can fly "free" from a radio tether and to high altitudes. Which would kind of take the fun out of FPV (first person video) rc flight.

As far as the amazon drones go... i'm sure they'll be restricted to something below 500 AGL and restricted outside of areas within so many miles of known flight paths/airports. color me unconcerned.
 
I don't really see the issue until these things start having onboard maps and inertial navigation where they can fly "free" from a radio tether

Read it and weep.

http://www.xheli.com/05p-flightcontrol-mega-mx.html

Quote from linked page "It allows the user to turn any fixed wing, rotary wing or multi-rotor vehicle (even boats and car) into a fully autonomous vehicle capable of performing programmed GPS missions with waypoints"
 
Read it and weep.

http://www.xheli.com/05p-flightcontrol-mega-mx.html

Quote from linked page "It allows the user to turn any fixed wing, rotary wing or multi-rotor vehicle (even boats and car) into a fully autonomous vehicle capable of performing programmed GPS missions with waypoints"
This is already here and common with the quad and similar electric copters. Friend of mine has one that can find its way home and land where it originally took off. Autonomous flight, I believe they call that.
 
Read it and weep.

http://www.xheli.com/05p-flightcontrol-mega-mx.html

Quote from linked page "It allows the user to turn any fixed wing, rotary wing or multi-rotor vehicle (even boats and car) into a fully autonomous vehicle capable of performing programmed GPS missions with waypoints"

NEAT! And potentially dangerous, but I'm still skeptical. 99% of the people flying these "drones" are FPVers, where the allure is not sending something out on a mission, it's flying the mission. I'm sure there is a very small community that would be interested, but it's not very exciting (from where I'm sitting).

for those not familiar: FPV is the term used to describe drone pilots who wear goggles (or use a tv monitor) and use radio to pilot RC aircraft with a first person view (they have HUDs with airspeed, signal strength, altitude, HDG, etc...) via a radio data link and video feed. as stated earlier, the ranges are fairly short and there is usually a spotter.


If the autonomous community starts growing in size similar to the FPV guys, I'll be worried. But I don't think that will happen. And anything on a large scale will be fairly regulated (I friggin hope).
 
This is already here and common with the quad and similar electric copters. Friend of mine has one that can find its way home and land where it originally took off. Autonomous flight, I believe they call that.

that could just be what is commonly used in FPV, known as a RTH (return to home/base) program where the thing will come back home if it loses the data link. as far as i know, there isn't much of an autonomous flight community
 
that could just be what is commonly used in FPV, known as a RTH (return to home/base) program where the thing will come back home if it loses the data link. as far as i know, there isn't much of an autonomous flight community

Well, maybe not, but the Universities have been putting out many engineers with deep expertise in autonomy for more than 15 years. Quite an amateur robotics community too. Autonomous flight is easier than navigating roads, obstacles and traffic. Much easier if you ignore traffic.:D

When I arrived as a research engineering manager, a couple of my new reports took me out to ride in an autonomous compactor. You know, like to compact a land fill or prepare a parking lot? It used GPS for an electronic fence, sensors to see and identify people or large hazards to be avoided and ran an efficiency algorithm to plot it's compacting path. I rode in this thing in a huge parking lot with nothing more than a big red (OS) button and some yellow ribbons. It would stop and turn very precisely, and it was eerie to ride in. Two guys built and programmed it in 6 months. They had MS degrees and 2-3 years experience. There were not enough projects like this to keep them busy, so they moved to other companies where controls development was still interesting.

This kind of expertise with ready access to small, powerful processors and friends could generate some very capable quads without much money or effort.
 
and then there's the 'other' guys.....
around here, I hate to say, certain people will be hiring high-skool kids to fly these over all of their multiple mountainside grow ops to provide security...and then they can dispatch an interdiction team should they see their crop being disturbed, or law enforcement getting too close.
...and you can bet you won't get a NOTAM about those!..nor will they be follwing the 'rules'.

Well, hopefully pretty soon the grows will be legal operations :D
 
Not-so-long time ago, in a galaxy far away, I started a drone business in my city (Mexico).

This is my drone, drone meet VAF:
md4-1000-UAV1.jpg


It flies up to 88 minutes, weights 11lb, ranges up to 1 mile on R/C, 25mi on programmed gps, and has a ceiling of up to 13,123ft.
It costs more than a fully assembled and airworthy RV-8.

Mexico airspace is still unrestricted for this things. Of course, as both a real and a drone pilot, I always notify local ATC about my operations, and always keep both an eye out and an Airband transceiver handy monitoring local fqs.

I do take a lot of care and safety in my operations, and my philosophy is to never "drone" into civil airspace, away from airports, and never higher than 3,000 ft with clear skies, as well as never into a cloud or IMC and always within sight. I also make to myself sort of a "drone flight plan", a preestablished, preprogrammed and mission-oriented gps flight path, as well as always monitor local Wx and area NOTAMS (should there be any).

BUT THERE WILL BE non-pilot/non-aviation folks and businessmen who will become my competition and start flying this things recklessly. No questions asked. They are the ones who we will -unfortunately and undoubtedly- have to keep an eye on.

My drone has many fail-safe functions and will never astray by itself, but human error makes up for 60% to 80% of aviation-related accidents, right?
My fear is what will be that human error percentage in drone-aviation-related accidents?
*goosebumps*
 
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Just saw a friends hi-def video. Out hunting feral hogs with dogs. Using a drone. The dogs tree a big bobcat. Climbs really high up in the tree. The drone hovers right next to it just a couple of feet away.
 
Absolutely not safe for national airspace

While I worked with UAVs a short while ago, we lost 6 over a 6 moth period. Only one loss was to pilot error. Significant damage to a helicopter when it hit a small drone. They can neither detect and avoid nor see and avoid.

There are a number of UAVs flying in the US now but MOSTLY in restricted airspace or airspace that has been coordinated with the FAA. Think US Border Patrol.

When they fail, rarely will the operator have the opportunity to direct it to its point of demise. Nor will the operator know for sure the location of the crash site until someone stumbles upon it.

UAVs will have a place in our country, but we are in the Jenny phase and advocates want to move into commercial jet age now--they are absolutely not ready for prime time. They will be one day. But not in the next few thousand.
 
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