Van's Air Force
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Why buy a tip up?
- Thread starter dahugo
- Start date
Tip ups rule, sliders drool!
- Visibility is better in the tip up, especially on formation flights (IMHO).
- IMHO it is easier to get in and out of the tip up tail dragger.
- Access to the instrument panel no brainer
I know what you mean about the heat - there is a very good chance I'm installing an air conditioner in my RV-6 over the winter. I live in Texas and we had about the same heatwave you did this year....
source:
http://modernsurvivalblog.com/weather-preparedness/2011-the-hottest-year-for-texas/
Okay, now I'll sit back with some popcorn and watch the back-and-forth on this thread as it develops
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- Visibility is better in the tip up, especially on formation flights (IMHO).
- IMHO it is easier to get in and out of the tip up tail dragger.
- Access to the instrument panel no brainer
I know what you mean about the heat - there is a very good chance I'm installing an air conditioner in my RV-6 over the winter. I live in Texas and we had about the same heatwave you did this year....
source:
http://modernsurvivalblog.com/weather-preparedness/2011-the-hottest-year-for-texas/
Okay, now I'll sit back with some popcorn and watch the back-and-forth on this thread as it develops
..
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BSwayze
Well Known Member
The other good thing about a tip-up, that hasn't been mentioned, is the fact that when the canopy is barely cracked open, like shortly after you land or when you're taxiing around, you get PLENTY of fresh air circulating through the cabin. So the notion that a slider gets more air just isn't the case at all.
jbagley
Well Known Member
Climate?
I guess climate would be the deciding factor? and looks?
I couldn't imagine anything other than a tip-up here in Oregon. It would be nice to taxi with a slider open maybe a month or two out of the year. Otherwise, just leaving the canopy open a crack is perfect. I'm finishing a panel upgrade at the moment and have managed to get it done without pulling the panel out, a feat not remotely possible in a slider.
I guess visibility is a factor, but not much of one IMHO.
If I lived somewhere hotter, I think the slider would be the way to go.
my $0.02
I guess climate would be the deciding factor? and looks?
I couldn't imagine anything other than a tip-up here in Oregon. It would be nice to taxi with a slider open maybe a month or two out of the year. Otherwise, just leaving the canopy open a crack is perfect. I'm finishing a panel upgrade at the moment and have managed to get it done without pulling the panel out, a feat not remotely possible in a slider.
I guess visibility is a factor, but not much of one IMHO.
If I lived somewhere hotter, I think the slider would be the way to go.
my $0.02
n5lp
fugio ergo sum
It was over 100 degrees 70 times this summer where I live, although it is usually dry. I am quite heat intolerant but have never really been uncomfortable on the ground in my RV-6 tip-up with the canopy in the ventilation position. Now an RV-10 or DA-20 is a far different thing; no ventilation position and I find them very uncomfortable.
I wanted to build an RV-6 QB but couldn't make myself pull the trigger until the QB tip-up became available. I ordered the day after I found out. Looks and visibility are biggies for me.
I wanted to build an RV-6 QB but couldn't make myself pull the trigger until the QB tip-up became available. I ordered the day after I found out. Looks and visibility are biggies for me.
Omega232Devils
Well Known Member
Have flown both!
I did my transition training in a Tip-Up 7A and bought a slider 6A. (If that tells you anything!)
Everything mentioned above is true, MOSTLY! Everyone who owns a Tip-Up is going to say that ventilation on the ground is 'FINE'. This is certainly not true, they just don't value the view and ease of entry a lot more! This is the same as slider guys saying that it is no problem wedging their bodies under the panel to do any upgrades, not true again, they just value sticking their elbows on the canopy rails during taxi!
IMHO:
Tip-Up: Hot taxi but amazing view while flying!
Slider: Look and feel cool taxing, obstructed view while flying!
Bottom line: It is purely personal preference!
Dan
I did my transition training in a Tip-Up 7A and bought a slider 6A. (If that tells you anything!)
Everything mentioned above is true, MOSTLY! Everyone who owns a Tip-Up is going to say that ventilation on the ground is 'FINE'. This is certainly not true, they just don't value the view and ease of entry a lot more! This is the same as slider guys saying that it is no problem wedging their bodies under the panel to do any upgrades, not true again, they just value sticking their elbows on the canopy rails during taxi!
IMHO:
Tip-Up: Hot taxi but amazing view while flying!
Slider: Look and feel cool taxing, obstructed view while flying!
Bottom line: It is purely personal preference!
Dan
L.Adamson
Well Known Member
Us slider people...........know better. They must think we haven't been in a tip up. The tip up doesn't even begin to compare.........to the instant and gratifying breeze of a slider...
L.Adamson
We own a slider (RV-8) and a tip-up (RV-6). Pros and Cons both ways, both of 'em fly just fine. You can argue which is "better" until the cows come home and won't have an answer, because it depends on what's important to the individual.
(Can't yet comment on the tip-over, as we haven't flown it yet.... )
Paul
(Can't yet comment on the tip-over, as we haven't flown it yet....
)Paul
Winner!!!!
wil
Well Known Member
In the forty plus years I have been flying I have been in two very near mid air collisions. In both instances the "A" post between the windshield and the door blocked my vision of the other airplane. After flying in Van's RV 7A tip-up factory demonstrator, I never even considered a slider. The unobstructed view in a tip-up is whats most important for me-period.
JohnJacobsen
Active Member
Tip up for me
I did my transition training in a slider. Dont think visibility is that big of an issue but you do have to look around the pillar. Slider tailwheel looks cooler on the ground. Deciding factor for me was that most of the time spent in the aircraft is while flying so visibility of Tip up won.
I have a Kroger sun shade and taxi with canopy up a little while taxiing, it is hot but not unbearable. Like I said most of time is spent flying, not taxiing.
I did my transition training in a slider. Dont think visibility is that big of an issue but you do have to look around the pillar. Slider tailwheel looks cooler on the ground. Deciding factor for me was that most of the time spent in the aircraft is while flying so visibility of Tip up won.
I have a Kroger sun shade and taxi with canopy up a little while taxiing, it is hot but not unbearable. Like I said most of time is spent flying, not taxiing.
n5lp
fugio ergo sum
You don't walk away with the canopy tipped up and if the struts are weak you stay alert to the canopy being blown closed while entering/exiting.
RV7Guy
Well Known Member
Interesting!!!
In 2003 when I building my Tip up 7, I walked the lines at Oshkosh. At that time, my informal survey showed the sliders were 4 to 1 over the tip ups. I kind of felt I had made the wrong decision.
Over the years I have noticed that ratio is now an unscientific 50/50 mix.
My new 7 is a slider. It was bought as a project in progress otherwise I might have got another tip up. I've flown in both and the tip up has a definite view advantage. I do believe the slider provides a slight safety advantage with the stout roll bar close to your head and in front of you.
Regarding the airflow issue, I have to laugh at that. In AZ, I have taken off with an OAT at 117. Let me tell you, hot is hot no matter what type of canopy you have. This is a non issue in my opinion. There is plenty of air flow with the tip up propped open.
It is quite interesting the trend is toward tip ups now. It is really great that we have two choices and both are very functional and safe.
In 2003 when I building my Tip up 7, I walked the lines at Oshkosh. At that time, my informal survey showed the sliders were 4 to 1 over the tip ups. I kind of felt I had made the wrong decision.
Over the years I have noticed that ratio is now an unscientific 50/50 mix.
My new 7 is a slider. It was bought as a project in progress otherwise I might have got another tip up. I've flown in both and the tip up has a definite view advantage. I do believe the slider provides a slight safety advantage with the stout roll bar close to your head and in front of you.
Regarding the airflow issue, I have to laugh at that. In AZ, I have taken off with an OAT at 117. Let me tell you, hot is hot no matter what type of canopy you have. This is a non issue in my opinion. There is plenty of air flow with the tip up propped open.
It is quite interesting the trend is toward tip ups now. It is really great that we have two choices and both are very functional and safe.
Baggage access is superior in a slider. The tipper's thick roll structure means only a very small ice chest can squeeze past, making for a smaller beer inventory. Now with a slider, modify it to also tip up (takes about two hours). Combined with the properly located third wheel in the tail, you can easily drop in a very large beer container while standing on the ground.
Why oh why are the tipper builders so concerned about panel access? Didn't they get it right the first time? Then they get to mop up dew and rain that pours into the expensive stuff.
Doug's not as old as I am. I like having two hard points, the roll bar and canopy on a slider to assist getting in and out. That roll bar brace makes an excellent hand hold for lifting my butt out of the hole.
Most important, you look like a goldfish in a taxiing tipper. Way more cool with an elbow on the slider rail.
John Siebold
Temperate Boise
Why oh why are the tipper builders so concerned about panel access? Didn't they get it right the first time?
Then they get to mop up dew and rain that pours into the expensive stuff.Doug's not as old as I am. I like having two hard points, the roll bar and canopy on a slider to assist getting in and out. That roll bar brace makes an excellent hand hold for lifting my butt out of the hole.
Most important, you look like a goldfish in a taxiing tipper. Way more cool with an elbow on the slider rail.
John Siebold
Temperate Boise
Tip-Up all the way
I went with the Tip-up for the visibility in flight. I didn't want a tube obstructing my view. For me, it's all about getting the best possible view in flight. Taxiing is just temporary and the heat for a short time doesn't bother me that much anyways (it does get hot in the summer in Maryland). I rarely bother to even crack the canopy open while taxiing. I've had many passengers comment on the outstanding view from the bubble canopy.
I went with the Tip-up for the visibility in flight. I didn't want a tube obstructing my view. For me, it's all about getting the best possible view in flight. Taxiing is just temporary and the heat for a short time doesn't bother me that much anyways (it does get hot in the summer in Maryland). I rarely bother to even crack the canopy open while taxiing. I've had many passengers comment on the outstanding view from the bubble canopy.
JonJay
Well Known Member
When I was making the decision, Bill Benedict GM at Van's (RIP) told me this;
"When it is raining and you open the canopy do you want water dripping on your legs or in your lap."
Build what you want.
To me it was simply looks. I liked the look of the slider cosmetically and the tippers always looked whimpy like they would blow over with the slightest breeze. Of course, they are not and that is silly, but that is how they look to me.
And Doug, I love the fact that I can hide the sun behind my roll bar when in formation, even if it is only for a brief second or two.
I know, the roll bar might hide something more ominous like another airplane, but I think that argument has no basis in fact as there is no evidence it has caused a midair at anytime in the history of RV's. That argument doesn't fly with me. You want poor visibility, jump in my Bucker! Wings above, wings below, wires everywhere, and another cockpit ahead of you. RV's have great visibility, all types.
"When it is raining and you open the canopy do you want water dripping on your legs or in your lap."
Build what you want.
To me it was simply looks. I liked the look of the slider cosmetically and the tippers always looked whimpy like they would blow over with the slightest breeze. Of course, they are not and that is silly, but that is how they look to me.
And Doug, I love the fact that I can hide the sun behind my roll bar when in formation, even if it is only for a brief second or two.
I know, the roll bar might hide something more ominous like another airplane, but I think that argument has no basis in fact as there is no evidence it has caused a midair at anytime in the history of RV's. That argument doesn't fly with me. You want poor visibility, jump in my Bucker! Wings above, wings below, wires everywhere, and another cockpit ahead of you. RV's have great visibility, all types.
n5lp
fugio ergo sum
...
Why oh why are the tipper builders so concerned about panel access? Didn't they get it right the first time?
Just as I think slider people tend to overestimate the ground ventilation issue I think tip-up people tend to overestimate the panel access advantage. Because of the depth of most panel stuff I find I generally still need to "assume the position."
Bugsy
Well Known Member
Too late
I stopped looking cool a long time ago. You guys wearing bifocals with your slider only think you look cool.
I dont think you can look uncool flying anything...unless your holding a barf bag.
I'll take a tip up, nose wheel, side by side look uncool on the ground but cool in the pattern. If I ever get this thing built that is.
I stopped looking cool a long time ago. You guys wearing bifocals with your slider only think you look cool.
I dont think you can look uncool flying anything...unless your holding a barf bag.
I'll take a tip up, nose wheel, side by side look uncool on the ground but cool in the pattern. If I ever get this thing built that is.
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You may be amazed to see with a very small mod/add-on to the tip-up center lock, how much more air you can get for those short times you are on the ground. I can get my elbow out on the side, but have much more room to work when accessing the back of complicated panel.
RV7Guy
Well Known Member
Latches
I'm really glad for trend toward Tip ups. For those building, please visit www.jdair.com for the Tip Up latch.
Shameless plug!!! Yes, Moderators, I'm an advertiser.
I'm really glad for trend toward Tip ups. For those building, please visit www.jdair.com for the Tip Up latch.
Shameless plug!!! Yes, Moderators, I'm an advertiser.
turbo
Well Known Member
why are that majority sliders. look for yourself. maybe the trend can be changing.http://gallery.mac.com/edarcy#100741&bgcolor=black&view=grid
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N355DW
Well Known Member
Slider for me
I had an Extra 300L with the tip over canopy, same visibility as the tip up in the RV. Really nice for sure, but one hot day I had left the canopy unlatched to keep cool as I buckled in. I had a long taxi and forgot to latch the canopy, which I was used to latching as soon as I sat in the seat. When I gunned the engine taxiing from the grass to the runway the canopy blew open and shattered on the wing. Very expensive, and takes a while to fix, fitting and all.
For me, too many chances of an unexpected or errant gust of wind, prop blast or such. The thought of having to wrestle that big sail on the standard windy Florida day does not appeal! The visibility in the slider is nearly as good, certainly far superior to a Pitts or spam can of any sort.
I like the no worries of the slider, especially in Florida.
But to each his or her own, I am the last to judge others' preferences, these are simply my reasons!
I had an Extra 300L with the tip over canopy, same visibility as the tip up in the RV. Really nice for sure, but one hot day I had left the canopy unlatched to keep cool as I buckled in. I had a long taxi and forgot to latch the canopy, which I was used to latching as soon as I sat in the seat. When I gunned the engine taxiing from the grass to the runway the canopy blew open and shattered on the wing. Very expensive, and takes a while to fix, fitting and all.
For me, too many chances of an unexpected or errant gust of wind, prop blast or such. The thought of having to wrestle that big sail on the standard windy Florida day does not appeal! The visibility in the slider is nearly as good, certainly far superior to a Pitts or spam can of any sort.
I like the no worries of the slider, especially in Florida.
But to each his or her own, I am the last to judge others' preferences, these are simply my reasons!
L.Adamson
Well Known Member
No wind or rain in my slider either. The first night out of a hangar, it went through a monsoon type rain storm. I expected water inside, and was quite surprised. But then...........I did an outstanding job on the side skirts..
L.Adamson
Why oh why are the tipper builders so concerned about panel access? Didn't they get it right the first time?
Come back after you've been flying it for 18+ years and tell me that you haven't changed anything in your panel.
Never in that 18+ years have I had to "mop up dew and rain that pours into the expensive stuff"!
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scsmith
Well Known Member
Another vote for baggage access
I'm surprised only one other owner made this observation. It makes a huge difference if you think you are going to put a folding bike in the back.
With the Slider and add-on tip-up kit, you can drop in a full road bike.
I'm surprised only one other owner made this observation. It makes a huge difference if you think you are going to put a folding bike in the back.
With the Slider and add-on tip-up kit, you can drop in a full road bike.
Baggage access is superior in a slider. The tipper's thick roll structure means only a very small ice chest can squeeze past, making for a smaller beer inventory. Now with a slider, modify it to also tip up (takes about two hours). Combined with the properly located third wheel in the tail, you can easily drop in a very large beer container while standing on the ground.
Why oh why are the tipper builders so concerned about panel access? Didn't they get it right the first time?
Doug's not as old as I am. I like having two hard points, the roll bar and canopy on a slider to assist getting in and out. That roll bar brace makes an excellent hand hold for lifting my butt out of the hole.
Most important, you look like a goldfish in a taxiing tipper. Way more cool with an elbow on the slider rail.
John Siebold
Temperate Boise
alpinelakespilot2000
Well Known Member
I live where winds can regularly get up in the 20-30 kt range, hence a slider. Don't want a big sail sticking up when on the ground. Not sure if Shreveport has much wind, but that's what tipped (no pun intended ) things in favor of the slider for me.
Also, + 1 for much better access to the baggage area with the slider (fitted with the tipup mod). 2 bikes or 2 large backpacks go in easy. That was another requirement for me.
) things in favor of the slider for me. Also, + 1 for much better access to the baggage area with the slider (fitted with the tipup mod). 2 bikes or 2 large backpacks go in easy. That was another requirement for me.
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Mark Burns
Well Known Member
I had about 500 hours on my 7A slider when my friend let me fly his 6 tip-up. About a week later I suddenly realized I had a flown a tip-up and not even noticed the "superior" visibility!!
Mark
Mark
RV-6 on 796
I just received my Garmin 796. I knew they were using an RV-6 as the airplane in the 3D vision mode but when I turned it sideways guess what?
Tip-up.
I just received my Garmin 796. I knew they were using an RV-6 as the airplane in the 3D vision mode but when I turned it sideways guess what?
Tip-up.
scsmith
Well Known Member
What canopy?
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is that with the tip-up canopy I find that I actually forget that it is there. I know its sounds strange but since there is no structure in you vision it become "invisible".
I recently added a Kroger shade it has an aluminum channel down the middle of the canopy and I definitely notice it when flying. However the shade works well.
I transitioned trained in Van's RV-9A slider. The windscreen roll bar was noticeable and didn't "vanish" after several flights. I did like the fact that you can place you headset on the "dash" which is something you really can't do in a tip-up.
I fly out of Tucson, AZ. Hot is really hot down here and though the slider might provide a little more relief during taxing then the tip-up, the vent position with the tip-up provides enough flow that is tolerable.
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is that with the tip-up canopy I find that I actually forget that it is there. I know its sounds strange but since there is no structure in you vision it become "invisible".
I recently added a Kroger shade it has an aluminum channel down the middle of the canopy and I definitely notice it when flying. However the shade works well.
I transitioned trained in Van's RV-9A slider. The windscreen roll bar was noticeable and didn't "vanish" after several flights. I did like the fact that you can place you headset on the "dash" which is something you really can't do in a tip-up.
I fly out of Tucson, AZ. Hot is really hot down here and though the slider might provide a little more relief during taxing then the tip-up, the vent position with the tip-up provides enough flow that is tolerable.
N941WR
Legacy Member
That reminds me of one of the first flights I took with my wife. I went to point to something on the ground and smashed my hand into the canopy.
DRBuilder
Well Known Member
COOL
Spend $500 on a portable airconditioner for the baggage area and the tip-up becomes a clear winner. (pun intended) I HATE being hot in the pattern and during taxi. And I REALLY hate cleaning up an airplane after your passenger gets sick from bouncing around in the bumpy heat. When making the decision to go with a tip-up vs slider, I went with the tip-up because I already knew I was planning to install an airconditioner in the baggage compartment. I even hard wired a switch on my panel to turn it on when I needed it! No reaching in the back of the plane for me! I installed a 12v accessory receptical on the center section brace that covers the flap motor and switched it right on the panel. Cheap A/C with the flick of a switch!
Spend $500 on a portable airconditioner for the baggage area and the tip-up becomes a clear winner. (pun intended) I HATE being hot in the pattern and during taxi. And I REALLY hate cleaning up an airplane after your passenger gets sick from bouncing around in the bumpy heat. When making the decision to go with a tip-up vs slider, I went with the tip-up because I already knew I was planning to install an airconditioner in the baggage compartment. I even hard wired a switch on my panel to turn it on when I needed it! No reaching in the back of the plane for me! I installed a 12v accessory receptical on the center section brace that covers the flap motor and switched it right on the panel. Cheap A/C with the flick of a switch!
If you crack the canopy open after touchdown so your overhead latch is sitting on top of the rear bow instead of latching below it, you'll have plenty of airflow to keep the cockpit cool on the ground during taxi. At least, it's worked for me so far...
The process is the same for both types. On it's back, unless you're on pavement and the forward canopy bow hasn't collapsed or bent, you won't be able to open a slider any easier than a tip-up. The only way out is through the plexi or the aluminum. A canopy breaking tool is about all you can hope for to help you break through the plexi.juhee said:
woodmanrog
Well Known Member
I have personally owned 3 sliders and never really had an issue with visability. That said, the only squawks people seem to have with the slider is A: behind the panel access and B: baggage loading. Well, the photos show the solutions to these problems. First make access panels in front of the windscreen and secondly (I love this mod) extend the slider rail, cut two openings to lift the slider wheels up and voila, instant easy access along with the benefit of making the canopy easier to remove. Check out the pics.
http://i42.tinypic.com/rgxhtc.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/nx3nsh.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/rgxhtc.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/nx3nsh.jpg
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Jerry Cochran
Well Known Member
I am a slider guy and bet I am the only one who invented new swear words while building same. My vocabulary therefore is much more extensive than you tipper guys...
In comparison, the tip-up only gives you access to the first 6" behind the panel, which is only helpful for "short" instruments. When you have to get behind the sub-panel, it's no better than the slider. Baggage access isn't a lot better for the tip-up, maybe a tiny bit. You still have to reach over the seats to get anything out.
LifeofReiley
Well Known Member
Heck... get a tip up so all your avionics can get wet when it rains and you can have the tip up whistle.
