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OT, Sort Of: Thielert and Van Bortel

Jamie

Jamie

Well Known Member
For those that haven't seen this, today's AOPA e-mail newsletter mentions that Van Bortel aircraft (very reputable if not expen$ive Cessna dealer) is now offering new 2006 Skyhawks with the Thielert Centurion 1.7 engine. They are claiming double the fuel efficiency of the Lycoming IO-360's and optimal cruise altitude of 12,000ft.

The downside: $239,500 for a NAVII (Bendix/King avionics) equipped Skyhawk is very hard to swallow.

Now if Thielert will just wise up and sell to the homebuilt market. Sounds like that Thielert would be a good match for the RV series.

Not affiliated in any way..just found this to be notable and a positive step for GA.

http://www.vanbortel.com/inventory/Thielert.htm
 
Thielert = superior engine = perfect for RV9

Yes !, as I have posted here before, the Thielert engine would be "the perfect engine" for the RV9(A) with its 135 BHP, turbo, intercooler, liquid cooled, light weight, FADEC, single lever control, 2000 hrs. guarantied exchange programme, etc. etc. etc. but,......... unfortunately Thielert will not sell to the individual experimental builder !!

Only if Vans would come to an agreement with Thielert, we (RV-builders) would be able to use a Centurion in our RV's. In a previous thread I asked if there were other builders interested to team up to put pressure on Vans to get this deal going, but ........ no response at all !!!

So, at the moment, for us RV9-ers, it looks like the only alternatives to the AVGAS slurpers are: Wilksch, Delta Hawk, Limbach and ........???

(approx. fuel prices in Europe: Avgas = $ 9,75/gal. Jet A1/diesel = $ 3,25/gal. Mogas = $ 5,75/gal)

Obviously diesel would be preferred, due to its lower fuel consumption and lower fuel price, but, unfortunately, the only alternative on the market (Wilksch) is not showing any performance at the moment.

Still awaiting.

Regards, PilotTonny.
 
Tony

The first RV-9a Wilksch has flown but has some cooling issues. The second is awaiting a permit to test (UK requirement). I gather a Murphy Rebel is also flying. There should be some performance figures for the Wilksch within a few months.

Dave
 
I discussed the opportunities of supplying this engine to the homebuilt market with these engine folks at the Farnborough airshow last summer and was told that the engine set up was extremely complex and customized for each application. they said that they did not want to go into the homebuilt area.
 
joehart said:
I discussed the opportunities of supplying this engine to the homebuilt market with these engine folks at the Farnborough airshow last summer and was told that the engine set up was extremely complex and customized for each application. they said that they did not want to go into the homebuilt area.
Click to expand...

For which company? Thielert, Wilksch, DeltaHawk, Limbach?
 
Pilottonny said:
So, at the moment, for us RV9-ers, it looks like the only alternatives to the AVGAS slurpers are: Wilksch, Delta Hawk, Limbach and ........???

(approx. fuel prices in Europe: Avgas = $ 9,75/gal. Jet A1/diesel = $ 3,25/gal. Mogas = $ 5,75/gal)


Still awaiting.

Regards, PilotTonny.
Click to expand...

Are you not allowed to run Mogas in you Lycoming for some reason?....My IO360 saw its last fill up of AVGAS about three tankfuls ago...92OCT mogas from now on.

Frank
 
Dave,

I posted here before on the Wlksch issue!

They are aware of the fact that I am interested in their engine, but are not even answering my email! "Back in the old days", Mark Wilksch tried to get me into buying one of his engines, but I understand he is no longer with the company, and allready things start to go bad!?

Anyway, without "the numbers" no go for me at this time and also I need some evidence of Wilksch'es commitment before I can buy an engine and hope they will back it up in the future (warranty, spare parts, etc.).

Regards,

PilotTonny.
 
I can't even get Wilksch to answer my emails, over a couple of months of trying. Between that and seeing no updates to their website for 17 months now, that's a pretty big negative indicator.
 
Why?

Jamie said:
The downside: $239,500 for a NAVII (Bendix/King avionics) equipped Skyhawk is very hard to swallow.
Click to expand...
Ha Ha Ha Next. :eek:

Pilottonny said:
approx. fuel prices in Europe: Avgas = $ 9,75/gal. Jet A1/diesel = $ 3,25/gal. Mogas = $ 5,75/gal) Regards, PilotTonny.
Click to expand...
Tony not sure where you got your numbers from but in the good ol US of A the price for Avgas and Jet A is about the same. It varies, by part of country. I guess you can haul car Diesel to your plane and save a buck, but you can do that with Avgas. Not practical for most people. At the car/truck stop regular gas is about 0.40 cents cheaper than diesel.

What is the economics? What is the drive for a much heavier engine for a light aerobatic STOL sport plane? Weight affects Stall, Climb, T/O & Lndg distance negatively. Not to mention the apparent purchase price. $1/4 M for a single engine prop plane!!!!!!! No thanks. It's still a single engine plane with no de-ice, radar or any thing to make it a serious traveling machine.

I do appreciate Diesels. The VW diesel car gets great gas mileage, but the honda civic with a gas engine gets almost as much. My friend has a 23 foot sail boat with a one lung german diesel aux motor. Diesel is good for boats because boats blow up when gas fumes ignite. Diesel is less volatile.

All good things but to get that 1 gal/hr or 2 gal/hr less less fuel burn? Than you really have to wounder if Cessna will sell many Skyhawks at .25M when old gas powered ones can be bought for $40k-$100k. Sure maintenance could be less? But $200,000 less vs. maintenance?
 
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airguy said:
I can't even get Wilksch to answer my emails, over a couple of months of trying. Between that and seeing no updates to their website for 17 months now, that's a pretty big negative indicator.
Click to expand...

I've been talking with Kerry - Kerry.Ashcroft"at"wilksch.com - about my installation issues & alway get a reasonable response.

Dave
 
George,

The fuel prices I quoted, is approx. what we pay at the moment IN EUROPE. As you know, a lot of it has to do with different taxes on different fuels. Over here some people think that, in a couple of years, when there is more GA-aircraft flying with diesel engines, the JetA1 will be taxed higher for GA-aircraft also, so that the gouvernement still gets her share of our money.

But for the time being, the fuel cost flying an RV9 with a diesel engine will be 1/3 to 1/4 the cost of flying it with an Avgas engine (in most parts of Europe!)

A modern diesel engine like the Centurion or the Wilksch is not "much heavier" than an Avgas engine, the extra couple of kg's way-up against the less fuelburn, so the mission weight on longer flights may even stay the same. Anyway, the RV9 is not aerobatic! In the worst case the useful load may go down a little bit, but with one of the highest useful loads on the market that is not a problem at all, I believe, especially not for Europe, because pilots and passengers tend to be lighter over here than in the USA (statistics).

The somewhat higher purchase price of the engine (maybe $ 5.000,- to $ 10.000,- against a basic Avgas engine) will be saved in a very short time on fuel cost, after that it is going to be a lot cheaper to fly as you can calculate yourselves. Also there will be less maintenance costs, because there is no need to change the sparkplugs. By the way, I do not understand what Cessna has got to do with this ?? We are talking about the RV9 here!

And of course there are a lot more benefits like: no carb icing, single leaver control, no shock cooling due to liquid cooling, high power output at altitude due to the turbo, etc.

But most important of all, if we want our children still to have a decent life on this planet, is that we have to try to use our resources as good as possible and to pollute the environment as little as possible. I am not saying that we have to quit flying, but that we have to try to reduce unnecessary fuel consumption and reduce unnecessary pollution wherever we can. With these modern engines we are at least doing that.

Regards, PilotTonny.

 
Gentlemen

Forget about the thielert diesel!!!!!
I was pursuing it when I built my RV8,2001-2003 and they told me that they didnt care fore Experimentals I will line the facts up

1 price 35000$ without the special propeller which will cost you another 12000$=47000$

2 Here in Denmark there are 4 thielerts 3 off them down with Gearbox repair

3 Performance or should I say the lack off it,it will produce the same trust as the 320/360 ABOVE 12000 ft. how often do you fly above 12000 ft. At my airfield
we have a German Diamond coming for fuel,and my old Cessna 150 with a 100 hp continetal with outperform it any time(dont build a fun aeroplane and destroy it with a dull engine)

4 The cowling conversion will make an RV so ugly that you dont want to bother

5 My RV8 used 4400 ltr. of avgas on the first 200 hours which give a burn rate off 22 ltr an hour( 5gallon an hour)

My five cents??

jorn Moller
OY-RVS RV8
300 hours
 
Think before you forget !

Jorn, you are correct, as I stated before on these forums, Thielert are not interested in the single experimental builder, they want to sell to Vans (in large numbers)!

Please do not compare the 135 bhp Centurion with the 160 bhp O-320 or even more powerfull O-360! If you compare apples to apples you will find that the Centurion is quite a performer, especially at altitude (you are saying it outperformes an O-360 at 12.000 ft, yourselves). I think that is not bad for a 135 bhp engine!?

Anyway, I have not heard of the issues with the gearbox before, if that is correct, they have a problem to solve!

If you are talking about looks, OK, there is no RV flying with a Centurion so we can only gues it is going to be more ugly than a standard RV, but... you could be right there.

4.400 lt. of Avgas will have cost you approx. EUR 8.800,- (in Belgium) against approx 3.750 lt. of Jet A1 (15% less fuel burn?) at approx. EUR 0,60/lt would have saved you approx. EUR 6.556,- (again, in Belgium) over these 200 hrs!. To me that is a lot of money and I gues it would not take much more hours, to save the extra money that you would have layed out for the more expensive Centurion. And from there on...... yes, you would save more than EUR 30,-/hr, every hour!!!
But, as we both know, Thielert will not sell to us, what a shame.
Regards, PilotTonny

 
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