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One GPS, no backup Nav Aids and trying to read a map in a RV-4

R

riobison

Well Known Member
I've come from a fully IFR loaded 177A Cardinal with dual NavsComs, ADF, Loran C and GPS etc for navigation.

Now I'm in my RV4 smoking along at 200 MPH. At almost 6 ft and 225 pds it's a tight fit for sure. But once I have it strapped on it is very comfortable with my Oregon Aero seats.

From coming from a plane that was loaded with 2 of almost everything to my RV4 with a single Com, a transponder and a little ole Garmin 500 Area it has taken a bit to get use to.

Most of my flying is done in Western Canada over the rocks. All flights are VFR, climb up to 12500 ft and head west. If I lose my radio or transponder it's not really a big deal out here. But relying on one GPS has me wondering what everyone else is sticking in for Nav aids with limited panel space?

I do carry my Maps as back up but trying to open those up even when folded properly in the confines of an RV4 is difficult at the best of times and are normally destroyed at the end of the flight. Then with my 60 yr old eyes even with changing to my reading glasses trying to read the print that seems to get smaller every year can be a challenge if things are even a little bit bouncy.

So my question is, what's everyone doing for Nav aids in these small panels? I thought an ADF but these even seem to be on the way out. Or try and find a smaller GPS and pack it in my shirt and continue relying 100% on GPS? Then continue trying to read our maps that are so loaded down with information in miniscule print that only the eyes of a 20 year old can read them.

Thanks

Tim
 
If you're just worried about losing yur GPS, then a tablet with your favorite chart program woudl be simple. If you're worried about losign the GPS constellation, well....the tablet will STILL give you charts - you'll just use them for pilotage.
 
Okay, I'm in a -10 with more room, but...
I have all my vfr and ifr charts on an iPad mini running WingX. (If actual imc I carry hard copies as backup). I can read the stuff okay (with bifocals) but if not it's easy to "unpinch" and magnify. The iPad mini also has its own gps. I think that's plenty for day vfr. The mini fits, with a strap, on my right leg, out of the way of the stick. If the GPS(s) go down you can always call ATC for flight following/nav help. Caveat: I don't know what is available, as far as charts, for Canada.
 
Pilotage is difficult on a tablet, at least for me, since it's hard to estimate distance. If the GPS goes down in midflight, we might not know what the last good distance was. And while it's small potatoes, we might not have paper and pencil available to do calculations.

For distance, I think the options are

1. Use the latitude markings to attempt to estimate a distance.

2. Use the program to give you distances - time consuming for en-route updates.

3. Establish, before the flight, some intermediate checkpoints at convenient distances and use them for your estimation.

With the old paper maps I could put a plotter right on the map and have what I needed. Plus, the folds were 40 miles apart.

Dave
 
In my -4 primary navigation is with my 7" Nexus tablet. If that goes dark, I will pull out my phone which is loaded with the same navigation app as the tablet. If that goes dark I still have VOR and a paper chart. When I am going somewhere far and new to me, I write down a simple VOR route as a backup. If that new place is pretty complicated, like somewhere over LA, I often have my tablet and phone out at the same time, so if one goes dark there will be no down time.
 
I know how you feel Tim, I have made several trips to Lakeland FL ( from North Ga) in a Long EZ. That was before Ipads, auto pilots, and even GPS!. I finally moved up to a Loran in the LongEZ and thought that was the ultimate nav tool . Way better than a VOR. No sectional to try to unfold in the front of an unstable in pitch Long EZ. With time ,moved on up to a Wing leveler AP, and finally a Garmin 96 GPS. When I built the RV9 . I started with a Dynon 180 and it has been Tech gadgits ever since. Who ever thought a homebuilt would have two GPS three if you count the one on the ADS-B , CHT and EGT on all four, XM Wx and music, Ipad , AP, digital Xponder, and not sure you could find a sectional if you actually needed one. And thats been just since 1984.
 
I have a i-pad that is next to impossible to read in our bright cockpits. Not sure where to put it as I can hardly find a place to put my maps.

As far as maps available for down load in Canada, they were limited at least in the past but that may have changed.

I do make a list of VFR reference points on paper every 30+- miles if available that I check against. But at this point its back to dead reckoning.

Are there any apps for the Android Phones for Canada?

Thanks

Tim
 
David Paule said:
With the old paper maps I could put a plotter right on the map and have what I needed. Plus, the folds were 40 miles apart.

Dave
Click to expand...

This would be one of my requested features: for an app to know the dpi of the display and be able to scale nd lock the charts to the paper chart scale.

However, at least Garmin Pilot offers the ability to create a ruler by touching in two places. You can then drag the arrow points around and get a point to point measurement. Don't know if the other apps offer this.
 
riobison said:
I have a i-pad that is next to impossible to read in our bright cockpits. Not sure where to put it as I can hardly find a place to put my maps.

As far as maps available for down load in Canada, they were limited at least in the past but that may have changed.

I do make a list of VFR reference points on paper every 30+- miles if available that I check against. But at this point its back to dead reckoning.

Are there any apps for the Android Phones for Canada?

Thanks

Tim
Click to expand...

Try the fltplan.com app for Android. Has VNCs, VTAs, etc.
 
In my -4 I use my IPad mini with foreflight, coupled with a Stratus II. It is mounted on top of my glove box, which is on top of the battery tunnel. The iPad sits back under the panel enough to where sunlight readability is hardly ever an issue. And with the foreflight, figuring distances on the sectional is easy. I also use a Garmin Aera 500 that is hard mounted as well.
 
SP400

I like having a Sportys SP400 handheld radio for backup com and Nav. It even has a glideslope receiver that works well. And, I see they dropped the price to $315. John
 
rv 4 navigation

Yes, the room in the 4 is tight. I use a fishing vest with lots of pockets. An air
gismo panel mounted 696 coupled to a garmin gdl 39.A nexus 7 with garmin pilot, a Bad Elf for Gps backup and my I phone. Steve Melton ,plane painter extraordinare, convinced me that the Nexus 7 (about $100 used) was better in bright sunlight than my I pad mini. We did a side by side comparison in the sun. Hands down , the Nexus was easier to read.
 
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riobison said:
.........................I do carry my Maps as back up but trying to open those up even when folded properly in the confines of an RV4 is difficult at the best of times and are normally destroyed at the end of the flight. Then with my 60 yr old eyes even with changing to my reading glasses trying to read the print that seems to get smaller every year can be a challenge if things are even a little bit bouncy. ..................... Tim
Click to expand...

Old fighter pilot trick: Sectionals, or WAC's, can easily tear and become useless in short order in a small cockpit. The trick back in the day was to unfold the chart, then carefully "ball it up" from one of the corners. Then carefully "unball" it, and lay it flat. Ball it up several times, and smooth it out. Then lastly, you can fold it anywhere you want in any direction, even "mash" it down to get control of it, and it won't tear easily.

Then dime-store reading cheaters (+2.25 for me). Great low-cost backup.
 
I've been in your situation once recently.

My VFR backup was a smartphone with one of the moving map applications.

I [gently] wedged it on top of the glare shield. It was finitely adequate to finish the flight or to troubleshoot the problem.

A small tablet is easier to see but needs more space. If affordability is a concern, an iPad one or two generations back are still very capable. A 2013 Nexus 7 (2nd gen Android) or similar is even more affordable.

The Nexus has built in GPS. The iPad will require you look for one listed as "data service enabled" such as Verizon, ATT, etc. and you never need to sign up for a data plan (iPads use a chipset where the GPS is integrated with the cell receiver).

Whether a tablet or smartphone, the antiglare screen protector film helps.
 
Hey Glen,

Ball it up? Do you mean roll it up?

I need prescriptions as the cheaters don't work that well for me with each eye having big differences in their prescriptions. But maybe the cheaters over the prescription...............

An Android phone with the Garmin or something similar would be good as a backup but another $129.99 US for the Canadian Version for a year subscription is now almost $200 Cdn. That's not going to happen any time soon.

It appears that everyone has gone away from VOR's and even ADF's that are simple to use, long range and tune into any AM frequency.

Smart phones and tablets of some sort appear to be the in thing today.

Thanks

Tim
 
The only EFB system that has Canadian "sectionals" that I'm aware of are foreflight and Fltplan Go. the later is free and is actually quite good now since the last update, I used it extensively for travel from Canada to Osh and back in 15

Jay
 
I back up my Dynon EFIS with Foreflight on my IPad kneeboard, and as a last resort, with Foreflight on my IPhone. Foreflight has all Canadian VNC, high, and low IFR charts, CFS, approaches, etc, however it is not legal to use as the sole source for IFR flight. Readability is OK on full bright, however full bright will cause overheating and shut down in the flight levels on a sunny day so while high up so I keep it in sleep mode until I need it. Biggest issue is trying to read the IPad (or paper CFS) in moderate turbulence while keeping the shiny side up!

I don't fly IFR, so for me, Foreflight is the answer. It can also entertain your back seater if that is an issue.
Jay
 
IPAQ Anywhere map

I have a small IPAQ Anywhere Map I mounted right in the top center of the panel on a little clip in mount. It covers little more than a 3 1/8 instrument (I used to have a turn/bank there). Its not the newest technology, but is dead accurate, I get free updates, and is simple to use. I also carry a Nexus 7 with Avare (free), that is really sweet and I can just lay it on my leg or knee pad. Neither of these require an antennae. 3rd back-up is my Samsung phone, also with Avare. If my BIB is with me, and she has her Ipad and I phone, that's back-up 4 and 5.
 
RV-4 Cockpit room

Tim

I fly what most people will call a fairly loaded RV-4 and I have enough room to have 3 GPS ( SKyview, KLN-90B & a Garmin 796 connected to a GDL-39-3D ) a VOR/ILS ( SL-30 ) and a Back up handheld Com ( Soon to have a Dynon Com as back up ) so I have plenty of map info and carry only the paper IFR approach plates that I need for the region I'm flying in..( I like the comments on the new Ipad 4 or the Nexus for a future map subscription )

So as you can see if you use the new stuff available, you will have enough room to carry anything you want...

Good luck

Bruno
 
I use "Avare" on my android smart phone. It's all free and very reliable. I have followed with it on several commercial flights across the US at 500 mph on airplane mode. (Sitting by the window) You have to download and store sectionals. I use it along with my Skyview because it shows the actual sectionals and is a great back up ground speed and gps altitude.
 
-3

I used an IFly 720 mounted on top of battery box between the knees and in the shade. The mount would also accept an IPad and I eventually move the IFly up to the panel and put the iPad on the battery mount. Of course all this hardware made it a trick to get into but not too difficult. The IPad needed the shade and worked most of the time till the angle of the sun was such that it hit the screen in the mornings or evenings. The IFly was readable either way but I've heard the newer ones are brighter. When all this technology fails, the fun begins.... And it will fail.
Congrats on your RV adventure!
 
Just another point of experience.

I haven't found an Apple product that is readable (IMO) in a bubble canopy plane in sunlight. This pushed me to Android. What I found to be large enough, but not too big is the Samsung Note 4. They have their own GPS. Mine gets ADS-B data via Bluetooth from my GDL-39. I also carry it with me everywhere. Easy to plan flights and not have to transfer info, etc.

It has a very bright, high resolution screen and a fast processor to handle my flying app with a few other basic apps running. It's very stable operationally. But most important, it's a good size for tandem cockpit. Mine's on a RAM mount on the right side of the panel.

I do want to try the Nexus 7 (2013). Have heard good things about the readability and think the size might acceptable.
 
If Androided, AVARE is a no brainer. It also shows ADSB Receiver WX and traffic via Bluetooth from at least the DualGPS170. With the FAA change, mostly just the weather if not ADSB out compliant.

If a current CFI, WingX or DroidEFB are free also.
 
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The real kicker here, from the OP's perspective is CANADIAN charting. The only free solution for Android devices is FltPlanGO - it offers free VFR and IFR charts for Canada. I have it loaded on both my Nexus 7 tablet and my Nexus 6 phone. I hate to say it, but the Nexus 6 has become my go-to device when using this app. Brighter screen on the Nexus 6 is nice in the sunlight. I have also been finding the smaller form factor of the Nexus 6 is easier to use in the cockpit (not that the Nexus 7 is big). The final straw is that my wife really prefers the Nexus 6 and took no time at all to learn how to use FltPlanGo.
 
riobison said:
I do carry my Maps as back up but trying to open those up even when folded properly in the confines of an RV4 is difficult at the best of times and are normally destroyed at the end of the flight. Then with my 60 yr old eyes even with changing to my reading glasses trying to read the print that seems to get smaller every year can be a challenge if things are even a little bit bouncy.
Click to expand...

Ha! Tim, you should try opening a map and reading it in a high-performance sailplane!

I came looking at this thread because my iFly720 touch screen is apparently failed - it won't calibrate so that it reads where you touch. They want as much to fix the screen as it would cost to buy a used tablet. And I have not been as happy with the iFly as I thought I would be.

So, whats new?

I tried an iPad a handful of years ago, with an anti-glare shield. In the RV-8, I found it basically useless. So I am interested to hear about the android devices being brighter. Sounds like the Nexus and the Note 4 are both more readable in sunlight?
edit: my bad, I see that the Nexus 7 is indeed a tablet, (not a smart phone) and looks like potentially a good solution, running Avare.

It looks like the Nexus7 has like 580 nits or so, compared to iPad Air 440 or so. Don't know if that is enough brighter to make a difference? It seems to me you need something like 800-1000 nits to be really sunlight readable.

Any other experiences, impressions, options?
 
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iFly issues?

"And I have not been as happy with the iFly as I thought I would be."

Steve, what issues do you have with your iFly720? I have an iFly740 which is something like 50% brighter and love in the -8.
 
GPS options

I used an ipad on my knee and a Garmin 196 on the right side of the canopy skirt when I brought my 4 to Ontario from Alberta 2 yrs ago. I found the ipad difficult to read and too large. I replaced the 196 with a 496 and the ipad with a Samsung Tab S running Easy VFR. Have tried the Fltplan Go but found it lost signal and locked up a few times. Happy with the Easy vfr Canadian maps and lower price than Foreflight. The colour Garmin is also easier to see than the b/w.
FWIW.
Al
 
Canadian_JOY said:
The real kicker here, from the OP's perspective is CANADIAN charting. The only free solution for Android devices is FltPlanGO - it offers free VFR and IFR charts for Canada. I have it loaded on both my Nexus 7 tablet and my Nexus 6 phone. I hate to say it, but the Nexus 6 has become my go-to device when using this app. Brighter screen on the Nexus 6 is nice in the sunlight. I have also been finding the smaller form factor of the Nexus 6 is easier to use in the cockpit (not that the Nexus 7 is big). The final straw is that my wife really prefers the Nexus 6 and took no time at all to learn how to use FltPlanGo.
Click to expand...

I have an iPad mini retina, and a "new to us" Nexus 7 (2013). I find the brightness is more than adequate and sunlight readable, maybe even more than the iPad. I think Mark has the 2012 version with a lower resolution pixel count. Mark, we'll have to perform a side by side test some time. My wife has a preference for the old "large screen" iPad 1 (rest in piece, due to Apple planned obsolescence). She approves of Vlad's iPad Pro.

I used to be a Foreflight customer, however I have found that FltplanGo, while the user interface is not as slick, is now quite a solid piece of software. I have used it for VFR and IFR, (both Canada and USA) with no problem and the charts and plates are geo-referenced (an option on Foreflight for the plates). Stratux also works and am not tied to any one hardware supplier.

I have the iPad mini mounted vertically on a RAM mount just left of the instrument panel. This on an RV9 though. No issues with sunlight, but I do use the pinch feature at times to enlarge text.
 
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