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RV-4 as a 200hr pilot?

Brian_G

Member
As the title says, I'd like to get the collective wisdom of those who have gone before me here on an RV-4 as the next step up from where I'm at. It's what I've wanted since long before I even started flight training, it fits the mission, but is it a reasonable choice for someone with my experience level?

I'm a 200hr private pilot. I fly solely for fun and occasional travel. I got my license in a 172, then bought a 150 as something to just have fun with and get more experience in a plane I knew I could jump in with wet ink on my PPL and handle. For 2 years that's been a blast, but (1) I've always viewed the 150 as a stepping stone and (2) I'm ready for something more fun.

I've got a fresh tailwheel endorsement after 5 hrs in a Husky. When I called up AOPA's brokers to inquire about insurance requirements for an RV4 they quoted me 15 hrs dual, which seems reasonable to me and I'd assume doable with one of the transition guys in a 6 or 8 over a weekend or two.

I was talking to a mechanic/pilot who generally seems to know his stuff about wanting an RV4 soon, and he was adamant that an RV is too much airplane for a 200 hr pilot, so after giving it a little thought I figured it might be wise to ask the same question of those who really know these airplanes. Assuming I take the transition training seriously (which I will), am I missing something that would make this a bad idea for someone in my situation?

My alternative plan is probably just selling the 150 and buying a simple taildragger like a Champ to play with for another 100 hrs or so, but then I have the same type of anemic performance with only the added fun of a tailwheel...it'll still be a great time, but not quite the same fulfillment of a dream.
 
There is no one answer here. Its entirely up to you and your actual abilities. I used to read Sport Aviation as a kid in the 1970's and it seemed that every other month some kid had broken some new "record" for first solo. I remember the kid who did his old mans Pitts, P-51 and Jet Ranger on his first solo day. My first airplane as a 200 hour pilot was a Hiperbipe, and I can tell you from experience that it is MUCH more evil handling than any RV. I also know some who have 200 hours and have yet to solo anything.

RV's are faster than Cessna 172's but extremely benign. Get the proper training and your 200 hours will not be a discriminator.
 
200 hr pilot in rv4

I would not think a 200 hour pilot would find a rv4 beyond their capabilities. It is not an easy plane to instruct in from the rear seat even with the optional rear rudder peddles. I have never seen one with brakes in the back.
Get dual in a rv6, or other side by side tail wheel rv and if you are comfortable you will find the 4 a little easier to handle. It is noticeably more difficult to land a rv4 with someone in the rear seat.
 
Go for it.... carefully

We have an RV-6, not a lot different from the -4. I always tell pilots that if you can get a good tailwheel checkout in say, a Citabria or Decathlon... then the RV is just a step up. Not a big step, just a step. A Husky would be much the same, I think. If you can (need to?) fly the -4 with an instructor for 15 or 20 hours, you’ll be ready or maybe Even eager to go on your own. I don't know you, but I am assuming of course, that you’re a fairly savvy, motivated pilot with at least average skills.
 
People are funny, they say the craziest things! The man who sets the vision is you! RV's, for taildraggers, are very honest, with no surprises. I think you'll do fine. Mike Seager is the "man" when it comes to a RV endorsement, so I highly recommend getting on his calendar. There are others who can give you an endorsement, however, in my experience with many good CFI's, Mike really has a feel for flying skills. Good luck!

Sam
 
I was talking to a mechanic/pilot who generally seems to know his stuff about wanting an RV4 soon, and he was adamant that an RV is too much airplane for a 200 hr pilot


Do you know whether this mechanic/pilot has ever flown an RV4?
 
I can tell you whether or not you can fly an RV 4 has much more to do with your discipline as a pilot and understanding of flying more than it does how many hours your have.

I've seen diciplined 200 hour pilots that fly better than undiciplined 1000 hour pilots.

If you don't already have it, get some experiance flying tailwheel and your endorcment. If you are confident in pretty much any small tailwheel airplane and have a very good understanding of everything going on, you should have no problem with an rv 4.
 
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Try the transition training and see how you feel.

If you get pretty comfortable with the -7 and feel like you can stay ahead of it; the -4, solo, will be easier. Time isn't what really matters in a taildragger, it is takeoffs and landings. If you can fly an airplane precisely, keep a heading, speed, and altitude the RV will likely be a pretty reasonable step.

With a person in the back seat the handling changes quite a bit in the -4, especially near the aft limit. That's not something that's bad, just a characteristic of tandem airplanes with the passenger behind the pilot. The empty CG varies significantly between airplanes.
 
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I was in the same boat as you when I built my RV-4 thirty two years ago. About 150 hours in 172‘S and 152’s. Took one hour in a Citabria prior to the first test flight in my -4. All worked out well, and I still love flying the plane.

I would never recommend that approach these days. There are many opportunities available to get dual time in an RV and get familiar with the step up in performance. If you’re comfortable, go for it! It’s an awesome plane with great performance and ground handling.
 
Determination and Caution

I have two close friends I introduced to the world of RV's that had less than 150 hrs TT, one now flying an RV-8 and the other an RV-4. Another young man I am helping to mentor is stepping into his newly purchased RV-6A, and he is only a student pilot working on his PPL. All 3 of these guys are sharp, determined and cautious. These guys are all around 30 years old, and to them RV's have been the Millennial choice of new aircraft rather than us greybeard's that had much less choices at that age. None of these 3 gentlemen had a minute of tailwheel time, and received their endorsements in an RV. The 3 of them are all members of VAF and may chime in of their own personal experiences. The RV Grin runs deep at our little airport !
 
Bullocks

As the title says, I'd like to get the collective wisdom of those who have gone before me here on an RV-4 as the next step up from where I'm at. It's what I've wanted since long before I even started flight training, it fits the mission, but is it a reasonable choice for someone with my experience level?

I'm a 200hr private pilot. I fly solely for fun and occasional travel. I got my license in a 172, then bought a 150 as something to just have fun with and get more experience in a plane I knew I could jump in with wet ink on my PPL and handle. For 2 years that's been a blast, but (1) I've always viewed the 150 as a stepping stone and (2) I'm ready for something more fun.

I've got a fresh tailwheel endorsement after 5 hrs in a Husky. When I called up AOPA's brokers to inquire about insurance requirements for an RV4 they quoted me 15 hrs dual, which seems reasonable to me and I'd assume doable with one of the transition guys in a 6 or 8 over a weekend or two.

I was talking to a mechanic/pilot who generally seems to know his stuff about wanting an RV4 soon, and he was adamant that an RV is too much airplane for a 200 hr pilot, so after giving it a little thought I figured it might be wise to ask the same question of those who really know these airplanes. Assuming I take the transition training seriously (which I will), am I missing something that would make this a bad idea for someone in my situation?

My alternative plan is probably just selling the 150 and buying a simple taildragger like a Champ to play with for another 100 hrs or so, but then I have the same type of anemic performance with only the added fun of a tailwheel...it'll still be a great time, but not quite the same fulfillment of a dream.

Brian,
Bought mine with 212 hrs in the logbook. Got 4-star transition training from Dave Austin (DTO), and loved it ever since. Flying the -4 made me a much better pilot. GO FOR IT.
Daddyman
 
FWIW my dad was willing to let me run off with his new RV-6 when I was 20 and had less than 100 hours. Although, he first spent 20-30 hours with me imparting some wisdom from his military and airline flying, teaching me suff my CFI never covered, and assuring himself that I wouldn't bend the airplane up. I did my tailwheel signoff in that airplane, too.
 
I had 184 hours over 14 years before doing first flight in my RV-3 on a long narrow runway.

That included some 15 hours tailwheel training in Champs, Decathlon and 4 hours dual with Mike Sager in his RV6. Tailwheel endorsement was in the Decathlon.

I found the RV-3 a pussycat compared to the Champ and Decathlon.

Don't know about the RV-4 yet -- have heard you need to add slight power at flare -- but surely can't be that different from the RV-3.

Just because the RV can go fast doesn't mean you have to. Start slow (C150/C172 cruise speeds) and then increase speed when you're comfortably ahead of the airplane.

Finn
 
he was adamant that an RV is too much airplane for a 200 hr pilot

Absolute nonsense. RVs are about the most powderpuff easy, straightforward friendly tailwheel airplanes in the world to fly and land. Just get some decent RV dual and you will be fine. I come from the acro world, and guess what...200 hour pilots transition much more easily to Pitts' and aerobatics than pilots who have been droning around in Cessnas for 25 years and decide to do something new. Pilots in the latter category bring ingrained fears, beliefs, and habits that can be hard to retrain. You are fresh and easy to train. And it's just a dang airplane, and a very easy one at that.
 
I have 35 hours in my RV-4 and I'm still not quite at 200 hours TT!

I did all my initial training in a Citabria so I suppose my feet were a little more awake than is typical, but I'm not a hotshot pilot by any means. Truth be told the speed and lack of ability to go down and slow down at the same time has caught me out more than once, but never in a dangerous way... just in a way that makes me look dumb to ATC. I had to do 10 hours of dual in an RV-6 for insurance signoff.

In return I get an airplane that flies fast, far and can go upside down.

Do it!
 
I'm with Finn

Wise words: just because it CAN go fast, it doesn't mean you have to.

It lands as slow as a SuperCub. And as a taildragger, it's probably easier than the Cub too. It has no mean vices and is beautifully balanced. View is excellent too. Certainly better than the Cub in that respect.

Just don't start with a passenger. It's a lot more stable when flown solo.

My first flight in an RV-4 was at around my 200-hour mark. No brainer, really.

You'll love it!
 
When this comes up it always kind of makes me laugh a little, not at others so much but at how I had no idea what was going on in the beginning for me. I had a little more than 200 hours and was learning to fly AV-8Bs (probably hovering a jet solo around 300 total). Soloed in the a T-34C I think in the 10's of hours; soloed in the T45 in the 50-80 hour range. I was taking traps on a boat at less than 200 hours total time. These are rough numbers, but I am not different than any other naval aviator. Does than mean RV4 at 200 hours OK, no. Military training programs do a decent job at weeding out those who can't do it rather quickly (most are out in the very early stages). Also, military training is probably above average of what you get on the street, and they ramp you up on performance rather quickly. Bottom line, anything is possible. RVs are more docile than military basic trainers, but not as forgiving in some areas (like landing gear, mil trainers can take a beating) and more forgiving in other ways (I can't get into a spin or nasty stall easily in my RV8, but the T34 I remember would go a little wild in approach turn stalls). Know your limits, get good transition training, and it should be a none issue.
 
I was one of Mike's 25%.

Hadn't flow 3 hours in the past year. And that was one C-152 rental, cross country and 6 landings. No airwork. The year before that a couple of hours. Only airwork was during BFR. May be common when in "builder's mode".

In other words, you have a C-150. Use it to practice as for the FAA PP practical test. Then the transition training does not have to include getting you "current" and can concentrate on getting you familiar with the RV. On the other hand if insurance requires 10+ hours in RV, it may not be relevant.

Finn
 
Lots of good comments here -- it depends on your training to date, skills and attitude.

However... when I got my RV-4 (1300 hours, CFI, maybe a hundred hours tailwheel, glider) I made sure that I was real good at flying before I put anybody in the back seat. The same stick pull that gave 2 Gs solo gave 5 Gs dual.

Be careful, be safe, enjoy!

Ed
 
... and he was adamant that an RV is too much airplane for a 200 hr pilot, ...


Just a data point. September 1997, I was a 210 hour private pilot and made the first flight ever in my RV-6.

I had 50-hours tailwheel and had done transition training with Mike Segar one or two months before the first flight.
 
GO FOR IT

I agree with Robin8er.......... I have known some 200 hour pilots who are much more capable than some 1000 hour pilots. Know your limitations and respect them, BUT........ don't ever let them hold you back ! Get out there and get after that dream.
 
Total time

Brian,
With good transition training and right attitude you should have no problem with an RV4. I have an RV8, Citabria and 182. The Citabria on tundra tires on asphalt is much more of a handful than the RV8 is. The only thing you are going to encounter is sticker shock from the insurance company when you give them a call, but aviation dollars don't count as real money. The most dangerous time for a pilot is between 100 and 400 hours. You think you know it all but you really don't. If you know that you don't know it all, and will always be learning then go for it.
 
Brian,
It was a good idea to post your question here. Lots of expert advice. I’ll just ad my $.02. Your tag line says Canadian, TX - kind of threw me off. You’re in the Texas panhandle, a good thing. You have an excellent RV taildragger instructor in Houston - Bruce Bohannon. Bruce has an RV8 with full dual controls, and he’s one of the best for your tailwheel training. Training is the only thing separating you from safely operating an RV4. There’s also a dual control RV4 for tailwheel training in Illinois, blueskyaero.com, but the distance may be too much for you. I am an EAA Flight Advisor, and get questions like this occasionally. My advice, in addition to training, is to have personal limitations that are more restrictive until you get some hours in your new bird. Limitations will include weather, primarily winds, and also ceilings and vis - it’s easy to cover miles quickly in an RV and you need to leave yourself a VFR out. Equipment on your RV4 has a lot to do with what you may be used to and what your are trained in. A constant speed prop will be much different than a fixed pitch when working in the pattern and landing. A fixed pitch RV4 will float like a glider, and CS propped one will sink like a brick.

The RV4 has no bad flight characteristics, but is very responsive compared to most production airplanes, and will require a more fingertip type control than say a Citabria. It is an excellent airplane that will reward its pilot with flying qualities that are better than you are likely used to. Yes, you can safely operate an RV4 if you heed the advice from others on this post. Congratulations! You will love the RV4 - it’s the most bang for the buck in aviation!
 
Wow! Thanks everybody. Lots of wisdom in these responses.

I had heard many times that RVs were relatively benign tailwheels, so the strong advice elsewhere to automatically shy away from them based on my experience level didn't make a lot of sense to me. Still, it's good to have some reassurance that if I'm smart about how I go about this I'm not doing something foolish.

I left a message today with one of the Vans suggested transition trainers. Looks like I'll be in the market for an RV4 soon!
 
I didn’t read all the posts Brian, but I can tell you I knew a lot of phenomenal pilots of the T-38 that only had 300ish hours to their name...and they were instructors! So with the right training and respect it is absolutely doable in the much more benign RV-4. The insurance bill will likely be steep, but seek out good instructors and mentors and it’s an achievable goal!
 
waiting for 300 hrs to fly a 4

Balderdash, poppycock, rubbish, gibberish, claptrap, hogwash, and baloney and any other noun to describe you mechanic/pilot's advice. My experience is time in a Citabria and then two days of transition training in a RV6. Lots of landings. I did my own first flight. Take Scott Hersha's advice. If you end up transitioning in a 6 or 7 the difference is minimal. Training in an 8 would be spot on.
 
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Tail wheel?

I had 1800 hours in 172 and a V tail Bonanza.
I taught my self tail wheel. After building a RV6. In 1996, I taxied the plane several hours before flying. Easy airplanes ...
Since that first Tail wheel takeoff, I have owned RV4, another 6, two RV8s, Cessna 180, and Exp Super Cub. Now About 3500 tail wheel hours later, I say RV are easy. Compared to the Cessna 180
If you are motivated, and I think you are. Get yourself a RV4. You will be fine.
 
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Not that you need my opinion (you've gotten plenty of great responses!). I was 19 years old and about ~200 hrs TT when I transitioned to an RV8. Total tailwheel time was about 15hrs, in a Decathlon and Super Cub. Really, it might be easier to train good habits now at 200 hrs than it would be at 1000 hrs. Ever hear those stories of super high time airline pilots having training difficulties comping back into GA? (not categorizing everybody in that group here.......). But you get the general point. Flying abilities and habits (good OR bad), can solidify with more TT.

Pack on another 5 hrs in that Husky, and do a 5-10 hr transition time with somebody in a 6/7. Bet you'll do great with the -4.
 
I learned in a C-152. 50-ish hours in that under-powered, sweat hog. Then I had the next 50 hours in Cubs, Champs, and Cessna 170s. Compared to any of those, flying my new RV-4 with about 100hr TT under my belt was a piece of cake. Just listen to those that have actually flown them and heed their words.

That was over 800hours ago. While I still stink at many aspects of flying, handling the RV isn't one of them. A credit to the design, not the pilot.
 
Brian,
You’re in the Texas panhandle, a good thing. You have an excellent RV taildragger instructor in Houston - Bruce Bohannon. Bruce has an RV8 with full dual controls, and he’s one of the best for your tailwheel training. Training is the only thing separating you from safely operating an RV4.


I should have mentioned this to begin with. By no means do my upcoming statements discount any other RV instructors....

When I bought my 8 (almost 2 years ago) I had flown around 30 different aircraft, had primary and advanced training from the navy, instructor pilot in the AV8B, USN test pilot school graduate, flown a cub, beaver, otter, MiG15, several fighters, helos, trainers, and so on, had type training from both American and United (Airbus and Boeing), USAF T38 training, and probably more I am forgetting. I have (and still am) been very fortunate in my aviation career, my timing has been impeccable. I needed transition training in order to get insurance. Well, someone mentioned Bruce as he lives close to me. He came recommended, but I didn't really do any research or look into him, I was trying to check the box and he fit the requirement. I wanted to be ready and I wanted to be able to safely fly my RV8 at my airport (which has a 23' runway that seems to always have crosswinds and more burbles than all CVNs combined). Hands down, best instructor I have had, both in and out of the cockpit. His knowledge of physics, aerodynamics, and how things work is incredible; but more importantly his ability to explain them was even more incredible. In the plane, he could feel accelerations long before I could (I always thought I had a well tuned ability to do this from my Harrier time). He doesn't sugar coat, doesn't pass people who aren't ready, and will not let people take him beyond his limits. He learned most everything he know about flying by application and doing, and living to fly another day. He is not free, but cost far less than it would to replace my 8.

I made a post with a review of my training here https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=165770
 
Brian,
I recently bought a 4 and by recently I mean 2 weeks ago! I am a very low time pilot with just less than 150hrs. I have owned a Cessna 120 for the last two year so most of my time is tailwheel, but still low time. My insurance required just 1hr of dual instruction, which I received about 1.5hrs and I was off on my own. I have put about 20hrs on it solo, and have been changing weight out in the back seat (throw a bag of concrete in, take it out, throw two in, take it out) which I think has helped get the feel of the controls. Big hurtle for me was sitting in the center of the plane, I kept trying to land right rudder heavy just because my sight picture has always been from the left side. Once I got my mindset right and lined up the nose with the center of the runway everything got a lot easier. I still have a ton to learn, but I am so glad I made the step to the 4. It will take me places I could only dream about in the 120.
 
After so much good advice on this thread I thought I'd circle back for an update. After a search, prebuy, and a couple weather delays I got the RV4 below last weekend. Along the way I did get a few more hours in the Husky, but more importantly some invaluable time w/ Alex DeDominicis in his 7, who I highly recommend.

I'm very glad I didn't let myself get talked out of going for this. With just a few hours so far the new bird and I have barely scratched the surface in getting in tune w/ each other, but it's going well. Climb rates are a particular thrill after my mostly Cessna background.

Thanks again to all for the encouragement! I'm sure it won't be the last of my questions.
 

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Valor

I'm sure it won't be the last of my questions.

Discretion is the better part of Valor...
and don't stop asking questions!
:)
V/R
Smokey

PS: If you really want to appreciate the RV4, build one...
 
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Brian,
Congratulations! That’s a pretty bird. You’ll love it. I sold my first RV4 to a fellow that had maybe 250 hours, but hadn’t flown for a long time. He is a smart guy, and got some dual instruction in a cub. Soloed the cub for a while, then took off in his new (my former) RV4. Flew locally for a few days, then headed for its new home on the west coast. As long as you understand your limitations, you shouldn’t worry, have fun. I’m not going to sell my second RV4. Nothing flys better than a light weight RV4.
 
Back seat weight.......

Brian,
I have put about 20hrs on it solo, and have been changing weight out in the back seat (throw a bag of concrete in, take it out, throw two in, take it out) which I think has helped get the feel of the controls.....

A word of caution: being in the medical profession, I would highly recommend NOT using bags of concrete for weight. During my flight testing, I needed weight in the back seat and used bags of SAND, which worked very well: heavy and still relatively compact. The reason being if something untoward were to happen, a torn bag of concrete with Portland cement flying around in a closed environment would be an instant toxic environment for a whole lot of reasons: breathing and eyes come to mind. You would not want to be breathing finely-ground cement into your lungs...... Sand or a bag of small (1/4-1/2 inch) landscaping rocks would be a much better alternative. IMHO.........

Beautiful airplane! The only regret you will have is having reservations in the first place! I think the RV-4 is easier to land than the Cub, especially as the Wind starts doing its thing! Worst part about this: wiping the smile off of your face.........people will start to wonder. Your mechanic friend knows a lot of things. On this, he may be lacking...... Glad you made The Jump! Welcome to a very special Club!
 
After so much good advice on this thread I thought I'd circle back for an update. After a search, prebuy, and a couple weather delays I got the RV4 below last weekend. Along the way I did get a few more hours in the Husky, but more importantly some invaluable time w/ Alex DeDominicis in his 7, who I highly recommend.

I'm very glad I didn't let myself get talked out of going for this. With just a few hours so far the new bird and I have barely scratched the surface in getting in tune w/ each other, but it's going well. Climb rates are a particular thrill after my mostly Cessna background.

Thanks again to all for the encouragement! I'm sure it won't be the last of my questions.

Outstanding! Great looking airplane, take your time and don't be afraid of flying it.
 
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