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long leg rv4 landing

Kb8qho

Active Member
I got a rv4 with the long legs. The one before this one had short legs.
Cannot seem to get good landings on this one. Seems to want to do a lot
of skipping down the runway. Can anyone who has a long legged RV4 share there technique with me? Maybe just age catching up with me.
 
Wheel landing, 3 point, or tail low wheel landing?

What is your speed over the fence?

What is the weight/CG in a typical landing?
 
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I've flown both short and tall geared -4's now. Really, there wasn't much to it if the speed is under control. I personally like tailwheel low wheel landings around 75mph/65 knots. Hold the pitch attitude and let it land itself.

Sounds like a muscle memory and sight picture issue with having flown short gear for a while before. Just some retraining of the brain is all :) That's always my excuse to go burn some avgas...
 
70 over the fence, tried 3 point and tail low wheel landings.
good point on cg and weight.
I just put a Cato 3 Blade on it and the problem seemed to have gotten worse
after that. I had a metal Sensenich on it. So the CG shifted aft and weight went down, but it always seemed harder to get good landings with this one.
 
manual flaps?

I originally had the short legs and noticed I needed to touch down slightly slower for the three point. The RVs still like to fly, especially with a little gusts so I now touch down with full flaps and dump (raise) them as soon as I make runway contact. That will make it stick. What magnificent machines.:D
Bill McLean, RV4
slider
lower LA
 
Do you trim all back pressure out at touchdown or do you carry some back pressure in the flare? In the RV and Rocket I carry about 10 pounds of nose up pressure in the flare. As soon as a wheel touches, I simply relax aft pressure and the airplane sticks.
 
70 over the fence, tried 3 point and tail low wheel landings.

Is that mph or knots? 70mph is a bit slow for an easy wheel landing. 70 knots is fast for a 3 point... Especially with tall gear. I believe you gotta pick one prior to touching the ground and fly the appropriate speed. (edit: Also, are you sure the Pitot system is right? Flying next to a local RV guy in my area, him and I are 20 mph off from each other. I tell him 75mph on final and he's smoking fast)

I'm a huge believer in Attitude Flying. CG and winds can change but if you have the control authority (which all RV's do), and proficiency/currency to maintain the landing attitude and speed you want, you'll get the same result of a good landing every time.

Just thoughts from a multiple spot landing contest winning, short gear -4 owning, tailwheel CFI...
 
My old one had manual flaps, I could dump them quickly.
need to move the flap switch on this one from the panel to the stick.
Hard to get them up. Thank you all for the input.
 
What I do

I have long legs, but flown both..I almost always land 3 point just because its a bit slower, and our runway is undulating and not super smooth. I have electric flaps on the grip, and trim on the grip. I tend to trim slightly nose down pressure because its better for me if I have to push throttle for go-around and minimize pitch up. As others have mentioned, as soon as I'm planted, flaps are raised and she sticks nicely. I love the HOTAS (Hands on throttle and stick) as I never have to reach for a thing.
 
70 over the fence, tried 3 point and tail low wheel landings.
good point on cg and weight.
I just put a Cato 3 Blade on it and the problem seemed to have gotten worse
after that. I had a metal Sensenich on it. So the CG shifted aft and weight went down, but it always seemed harder to get good landings with this one.

Too fast. 1.3 x stall speed in landing config + 5 knots works out great for me for wheel and 3 pt landings.

(1.3 x 42) +5 = 60 kts rounded up. I hold 55 kts on the dot on short field landings. Go flight test it and report back to me, but fly your own speeds not mine!
 
No flaps will float with a fairly nose high attitude. You’ll probably touch tail wheel first, but you will be more likely to stick. I have long gear legs and when I make a 3-point landing (95% of the time) I touch tail wheel first about half of that time - softly. This will be close to a stall speed, about 45-48 knots. If it’s a gusty day, I may float up a little - mains lift, tail still on the ground with full aft stick pressure. This tendency will be immediately eliminated if I dump my manual flaps.
I haven’t heard of anybody converting from electric flaps to manual flaps..... but it would be an improvement if they did, especially on an RV4. Keep at it, there’s nothing about what you’re doing that is unsafe.
 
It’s all about AoA

If you’re skipping down the runway, it’s probably because every time the mains touch the concrete, the tail is dropping slightly, which means the AoA is increasing, which means you’re back in the air. At 65-70 KIAS in the -4, you’ve still got tons of lift available for even a slight increase in AoA.

If you’ve gone from a heavy Sensenich to a light Catto prop, this makes sense. You’re probably not used to applying much forward pressure on touchdown for a wheel landing, which means the tail is dropping just a bit. The center of gravity is behind the main gear, and it will go where the momentum of the aircraft takes it unless you compensate with elevator. And with the longer gear, you’ve got more rotation available before the tail wheel touches, which is where you’re extra AoA is coming from.

So I bet just a touch more forward pressure on the stick through the touch down will do it.

I recommend resetting your sight picture and muscle memory with some dual time in a tail dragger that’s much heavier on the controls. Maybe a Citabria. It’ll feel like a truck compared to any RV, but you can be a lot more assertive on the controls. Get to the point where you can grease a wheel landing in the Citabria and the RV-4 will seem easy.

Good luck!

-Matt
N402BD
 
I just went from a short gear -4 to a long gear -6 and went through similar. Both planes small motor, fixed pitch. It took a few flights of touch and gos to get comfortable. My recap:

The sight picture is different. After years of flying short gear, my sight picture was to be tail low. This didn't work well with the long gear, and I got a bouncing tail problem that I never experienced with the short gear.

The fix to learn the new sight picture is to leave power on until the main wheels are on the runway. This forces you to land at the correct attitude. Good airspeed control on final required. Surprisingly, this doesn't add a lot of extra runway.

Once I got wheel landings dialed in, three pointers were easy.

BTW, Citabria is a good call. Think Citabria when rounding out.

Good luck.
 
I've flown both short and tall geared -4's now. Really, there wasn't much to it if the speed is under control. I personally like tailwheel low wheel landings around 75mph/65 knots. Hold the pitch attitude and let it land itself.

Sounds like a muscle memory and sight picture issue with having flown short gear for a while before. Just some retraining of the brain is all :) That's always my excuse to go burn some avgas...

I pretty much do the same thing. About 70mph (not knots) on final and slow to about 65 (solo) or keep 70 with a passenger. I basically fly it on to the runway with very little flare. This usually gives me a greaser wheel landing with a slightly tail-low attitude. Has been working very well for me for the past few years. Once the mains touch I still hold some forward pressure to keep the tail from dropping too quickly (which might raise the AoA to a flying angle again). With only mellow braking I can turn off easily 1,200-1,400 down.

With no passenger I'm a little more "tail up", with a passenger I'm a little more tail low. The thing that REALLY helped me was not trying to work or think too hard in the flare. Just get it close (2-3 feet AGL), do a slight flare, and then let ground effect do the rest. I think of it as just trying to touch the runway as opposed to flaring to full-stall it onto the runway - kind of like the guys you seen on YouTube skimming along the water in their balloon tire bush planes. But you have to be on speed to do this, but that seems to be the case in any RV-4 landing - they don't like to be too fast or you'll bounce, float, or both.
 
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I pretty much do the same thing. About 70mph (not knots) on final and slow to about 65 (solo) or keep 70 with a passenger. I basically fly it on to the runway with very little flare. This usually gives me a greaser wheel landing with a slightly tail-low attitude. Has been working very well for me for the past few years. Once the mains touch I still hold some forward pressure to keep the tail from dropping too quickly (which might raise the AoA to a flying angle again). With only mellow braking I can turn off easily 1,200-1,400 down.

With no passenger I'm a little more "tail up", with a passenger I'm a little more tail low. The thing that REALLY helped me was not trying to work or think too hard in the flare. Just get it close (2-3 feet AGL), do a slight flare, and then let ground effect do the rest. I think of it as just trying to touch the runway as opposed to flaring to full-stall it onto the runway - kind of like the guys you seen on YouTube skimming along the water in their balloon tire bush planes. But you have to be on speed to do this, but that seems to be the case in any RV-4 landing - they don't like to be too fast or you'll bounce, float, or both.

To the OP:

He’s doing 56-61 kts on final. I do 55-60 kts on final. See the trend?! Like Rick said, 4s love to float. The wing creates a lot of lift, so extra speed is the enemy of a good landing. On speed minimizes float and brake wear.
 
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Hesitant to post as I have no RV time.
But have you considered that it’s not you, but the aircraft? I know from doing the Certification test flight of many Crop Dusters that if the gear are toed in too much, the airplane will “crow hop” and can even be squirrely after touch down until the speed slows.

Of course you can check rough alignment easily with the pants off by placing a straight edge against the tire, even a 2x4 will give you an idea, and if the gear spread a little when you push the airplane backwards and if it narrows the track a little when pushed forward that’s an indicator of toed in misaligned gear, toe out of course does the opposite.

I apologize if I’m out of bounds with this post as I know nothing about RV’s. I’m lurking / reading trying to learn.
 
Well I pushed the plane backward about 1 aircraft length and the gear spread one and a half inches. Pulled it forward the same amount and the gear closed back up.
So I guess there toed in a bit. I do not know how much this matters, or if it is a combination of bad piloting habits and this issue.
I am going to investigate this further.
 
Well I pushed the plane backward about 1 aircraft length and the gear spread one and a half inches. Pulled it forward the same amount and the gear closed back up.
So I guess there toed in a bit. I do not know how much this matters, or if it is a combination of bad piloting habits and this issue.
I am going to investigate this further.

Can't say whether or not the alignment is contributing to your landing issues but it certainly will to tire wear and handling on the TO and landing rolls.

From what I have read, most TW aircraft should have 0 toe-in or maybe 1/2* toe-out. Vans wants 1/2* toe-in. When in motion the round Whitman gear bends back negating the toe-in.

The pre-drilled gear on my 7 has 1/2* toe-in both sides. First set of tires lasted 250hrs and 300 landings. Could have gotten another 100 or so landings but changed them at the annual to avoid doing it mid-year. Was using the Vans supplied AeroTrainer tires. Tracking is good on rollout. Only 200hrs and 250 landings on the FS II's so far and still lots of life left.

My 4 (purchased) was toed in 1* on one side and 1.5* on the other. Goodyear Flight Special II tires would last 80-100hrs, maybe 120 landings at best. AeroTrainers would only last 50-60hrs after reversing and rotating. Had to be on your toes during TO and rollout. Always found my short gear easier to 3 point than wheel land. As previously mentioned, speed is critical to a good landing.

Both planes operated on hard surface.

The alignment on both planes was checked by taking the weight off the gear and then setting it back down. The alignment was checked off the brake discs without moving the plane after it was set down. Seemed a reasonable indicator.
 
this 1/2 inch toe in or out you are talking about, What length is this measured in.
Is it from the front of brake disk to the back of the disk?
 
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this 1/2 inch toe in or out you are talking about, What length is this measured in.
Is it from the front of brake disk to the back of the disk?

It is 1/2 degree, not 1/2", measured off a centreline through the fuselage length.
 
Long gear RV 4.

To the Op and its been said before. If your airspeed is truly correct you are likely flying the last part of your pattern to fast. Please stall the plane, note the airspeed at which YOUR plane stalls and do the math 1.3 vso is plenty. That typically puts me at 56Kts IAS ( my airplane/my calibration error). The airplane touches softy in a slightly tail low 2 pt attitude. No muss no fuss and very little float. The skippers are flying to fast. Speed control is essential.

Best of luck!

Pokey
 
To the Op and its been said before. If your airspeed is truly correct you are likely flying the last part of your pattern to fast. Please stall the plane, note the airspeed at which YOUR plane stalls and do the math 1.3 vso is plenty. That typically puts me at 56Kts IAS ( my airplane/my calibration error). The airplane touches softy in a slightly tail low 2 pt attitude. No muss no fuss and very little float. The skippers are flying to fast. Speed control is essential.

Best of luck!

Pokey

You’re not wrong sir! For me: 60 kts full flaps gives me my best wheel landings if the wind isn’t crazy. 55 kts full flaps gives me my best three pointers. As always YMMV. Cheers
 
To the OP: I would guess "skipping" is because of too much speed (airplane is still trying to fly). My mission is mostly shorter and backcountry airstrips. As such, I prefer a slow approach speed and to arrive at ground level just as the airplane is done flying. With my long-legged RV-4, I typically use 1.3 VS0. I will use 1.2 VS0 if I need a steeper approach or am high on final. In all cases, touchdown is at or slightly above the stall. In my experience, the RV-4 can be made to strike tail first which causes a nose down pitching moment. If the strike is not too hard and stick forward is timed correctly (to 'roll onto the mains'), this makes for an excellent landing. If stick movement is not timed correctly, it is a less than elegant 'arrival'.

I created a video of this: https://youtu.be/tOPHb1WDXOo

For my typical loading/conditions, stall is at ~42 kts IAS. That is almost always checked immediately prior to landing to avoid surprises.
 
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nice video, you should always touch down at about stall speed regardless of approach speed. You will just burn up more runway waiting for it to slow down if approach is too fast. This plane just likes to bounce around.
 
With my new -4, long leg and a short final at 60 kts., she robs 200+ flare meters before landing three point without bumping. I suspect a good short landing will require a slower short final speed and maybe some engine in for a real STOL. Mine stalls at 52/53 with full flaps. I think when you are short final at 58/56 it will be OK for a short landing. However, practice high altitude slow flights and stalls before coming down so slow.
 
70 over the fence, tried 3 point and tail low wheel landings.
good point on cg and weight.
I just put a Cato 3 Blade on it and the problem seemed to have gotten worse
after that. I had a metal Sensenich on it. So the CG shifted aft and weight went down, but it always seemed harder to get good landings with this one.

I flew the short gear legs about 20 hrs and switched to the long legs about 10 hours ago now. Sight picture is different. All that everyone is suggesting - speed control is important - arrest the sink rate then just hold it off and it lands itself. Sometimes so smooth it comes as a surprise. If going out and doing a bunch of slow flight and stalls before going back to the pattern doesn't help i might be surprised. It helps me. Also your trim setting may need to change if your CG changed a lot.

One point i am not seeing discussed - you changed a prop - what's different from old prop? pitch, diameter etc? when you pull power are you certain you are getting all the power out or is there some additional thrust that wasn't there with the old prop.
 
prop and gear

The propeller change is mainly just a weight thing, I went from metal to composite and lost weight up front.
I found a problem with the landing gear, I do not know if this is contributing to the issue or not.
The axles are toed in over a 1/4 inch in the length of the axle.( about 6 inches) I believe it should be 1/16 of a inch. One comment on this subject suggested too much toe in could cause it to hop.
I don't know if it does or not but I am in the process of redoing the wheel alignment.
It defiantly should help on tire wear.
Marty
 
Landings

Correct answer was all the above. However the gear was set at 2 degrees toe in. I re-drilled for just under 1/2 a degree. The plane behaves nicely now. The amount of toe in was way too much and made it hard to get the plane to settle in. Also my tire wear was horrible, so hopefully it helps this also.
Thanks for all the replies, they were very helpful getting this sorted out.
Marty
 
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