A Looming Problem

Lowrance is out of the Aviation business. Garmin's Aera sales are way down. Are the Garmins the only current portable solution which can drive an autopilot and display ADS-B weather?

Going forward, someone needs to provide a way to drive our experimental autopilots from an iPad, or there are gonna be alot of Trio's and Tru-Trak's out there without a signal to drive 'em.

Kyle Boatright said:

Lowrance is out of the Aviation business. Garmin's Aera sales are way down. Are the Garmins the only current portable solution which can drive an autopilot and display ADS-B weather?

Going forward, someone needs to provide a way to drive our experimental autopilots from an iPad, or there are gonna be alot of Trio's and Tru-Trak's out there without a signal to drive 'em.

Click to expand...

Kyle, the Adventure Pilot iFly 700 and 720 will drive the Trio devices and are supposed to also work with various ADS-B receivers. I've been flying the iFly 700 with the Trio Pro Pilot since retiring my faithful Airmap 1000 and my hangarmate has a 720 driving his Trio Pro Pilot. The iFly system is very capable and is on a steady upgrade path.

Looming problem

It would be fantastic to know that something as available, mass produced and therefore inexpensive as an iPad could be used to drive an AP. In an ideal world a small panel mount interface with USB to both communicate with and charge the iPad that would be the "fixed" connection to AP.

I know I would buy it for 3-500$.

Sam Buchanan said:

Kyle, the Adventure Pilot iFly 700 and 720 will drive the Trio devices and are supposed to also work with various ADS-B receivers. I've been flying the iFly 700 with the Trio Pro Pilot since retiring my faithful Airmap 1000 and my hangarmate has a 720 driving his Trio Pro Pilot. The iFly system is very capable and is on a steady upgrade path.

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Thanks for the info, Sam - I didn't know that the iFly products could handle weather data (XM or ADS-B).

But my unsaid point is that as fast as iPad applications are taking over the "handheld" market, I'm not sure how long the handheld manufacturers will be able to stay in the market. I could see a day in the not so distant future where there are no handheld options, and we'll need an iPad solution to drive our autopilots.

Last I checked, the iFly didn't have any Canadian mapping data. Has that changed?

AvMap is working with a couple of different companies to add the ADS-B / Weather to the EKP V. They have reported that the EKP V is working with XM Weather, but I haven't tested that.

I am testing their AP software as well as their integration with Dynon. They are working with closely with Trio and Tru Track for the Autopilots.

The Av map IV works great with XM weather.
It would be nice if Nav Canada would loosen up a bit and allow their sectionals to be available.

My $.02...

Garmin sold a bunch of the 2-3-496's and when the Aera models came out, there was nothing compelling about those models that made it a no brainer upgrade; in fact there were deficient in some areas compared to the x96's. Now, seeing that there are no future upgrades to those earlier models such as ADS-B weather some of us (me) have been left with a bit of a sour taste because these models are really not that old and still work wonderfully. So now I have this shiny iPad in my cockpit, why wouldn't I move to that? The iPad apps are only going to get better and I don't have to deal with a different hardware platform if a new app comes out.

Its just a matter of time before we can drive an A/P with an iPad.

Made me wonder why at OSH there was always a huge crowd at Foreflight and not so much at Garmin's booth.

And I now won't consider the GDL-39 because I can guarantee you that Garmin won't do the work to make it work with a competing app.

Well said indeed

rocketbob said:

My $.02...



Made me wonder why at OSH there was always a huge crowd at Foreflight and not so much at Garmin's booth.

And I now won't consider the GDL-39 because I can guarantee you that Garmin won't do the work to make it work with a competing app.

Click to expand...

Pretty sure you hit the nail squarely on the head there.

I am pretty tired of folks who make software, or hardware that will not play nicely with others.

IFly 720 works with Skyradar and they are working with other vendors to include them.

charts? digital void up here!

Norman CYYJ said:

The Av map IV works great with XM weather.
It would be nice if Nav Canada would loosen up a bit and allow their sectionals to be available.

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Rob & Norm, as I understand it, navCan doesn't have the charts in digital format, so it's not a matter of loosening anything!
for all the effort of scanning and stitiching together the paper chart files, I think you'd just end up with really lousy looking unreadable digital images. ( just like the paper garbage they make now!)

..sorry for the drift, just a pet peeve of mine!

It wouldn't be that hard to develop a device which could serve the experimental market in almost any way you'd want.

There are quite a few nice integrated GPS modules on the market that have high update rates and advanced features like WAAS. Here's an example of a 5Hz WAAS-capable receiver that can track 66 satellites:

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/8975?

I've found some details on the ARINC-429 format. Most GPS modules speak NMEA-0183 directly, but it wouldn't be hard to put a microcontroller alongside it which could abstract the NMEA strings into whatever format is convenient: ARINC-429 to drive an autopilot, NMEA over bluetooth to drive an ipad, whatever.

Naviator

Naviator, the best aviation choice for Android tablets (and phones) has an optional NMEA output. They also have the ability to send the data over Bluetooth.

Android App

I have been using Anywhere Map Freedom app for my Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 7"

I love this app. It has already been tested with the new Dual ads-b receiver. The receiver is supposed to ship this week.

rocketbob said:

Its just a matter of time before we can drive an A/P with an iPad.

Click to expand...

I've been watching the Apple situation and the mobile tablet echosystem for quite a while (as it is my job and pays the bills). There are both technology drivers as well as business drivers at play. I believe it will be a long time (if ever) that we see an interface between an Apple mobile device and anything that can drive an autopilot reliably and effortlessly. The issue is the serial interface. If you wanted to trust an AP being driven over bluetooth, then there may be a near term path. Otherwise, its dedicated hardware with a niche audience. There are 10's of millions of tablets and less than 150K GA aircraft (and a much smaller number of GA experimental aircraft with autopilots).

Android tablets have a better chance since the devices tend to have standard [micro/mini] USB connections and a much looser App echo system. At the same time, the margins for App developers are smaller. While it becomes easy for a small development shop to create a solution, it is easy for them to become overwhelmed by the business aspects and costs and fold or become stale. It's a trade-off.

rocketbob said:

won't consider the GDL-39 because I can guarantee you that Garmin won't do the work to make it work with a competing app.

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I agree with you on the "one vendor, one choice". But it is true for both the GDL-39 and the Stratus. For one reason or another, they both Garmin and Foreflight have opted for a single alliance / integration.

One reason I just bought a new Garmin portable GPS is that the mobile tablet market, targeted at the general population, still does not have a sunlight readable display. The same topic has been in play for more than two decades (look at the number of laptops, smartphones, and now tablets with vs without sunlight readable displays). The economics are just not there.

Another thing to consider no matter what brand of whiz bang box you have connected to your Ipad. Even if the manufacturer of that box gives out the full interface protocol for free to anyone, it is still up to the maker of the app to support it. It takes an alliance between both companies to make it happen.

flyboy1963 said:

Rob & Norm, as I understand it, navCan doesn't have the charts in digital format, so it's not a matter of loosening anything!

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Somehow I missed this the first time around... Yes, NavCanada has the charts in digital format. They are all created digitally now and can be output to a PDF whenever they like. They just don't like, because they think that the first time they do it will be the last time they can sell one.

Nav Canada is greedy. They want to release their product at big buck rates to only a few with all of their publications. If they released them at a lower rate there would be more sales to pilots in Canada and internationally thus more revenue for them. The safety aspect would also increase as pilots would be more inclined to purchase up-to-products rather than flying around with out dated information. Don't hold your breath it is not about to change any time soon.

Garmin vs iPad

rocketbob said:

My $.02...

Garmin sold a bunch of the 2-3-496's and when the Aera models came out, there was nothing compelling about those models that made it a no brainer upgrade; in fact there were deficient in some areas compared to the x96's. Now, seeing that there are no future upgrades to those earlier models such as ADS-B weather some of us (me) have been left with a bit of a sour taste because these models are really not that old and still work wonderfully. So now I have this shiny iPad in my cockpit, why wouldn't I move to that? The iPad apps are only going to get better and I don't have to deal with a different hardware platform if a new app comes out.

Its just a matter of time before we can drive an A/P with an iPad.

Made me wonder why at OSH there was always a huge crowd at Foreflight and not so much at Garmin's booth.

And I now won't consider the GDL-39 because I can guarantee you that Garmin won't do the work to make it work with a competing app.

Click to expand...

I agree with what Bob explained. My issue with the iPad is it still does not have a sunlight readable display. Maybe someday. Untill iPad gets the sunlight readable display I will stick with my very capable Garmin 496 and use the iPad for charts.

Don't understand

I'm considering adding an autopilot to my flying rv6a, but the only thing I really want it to do is hold altitude and heading. As far as I know, you don't need a GPS for that.

Am I missing some great benefit of letting a GPS fly my airplane for me?

I'll state the obvious: The GPS driven autopilot doesnt care which way you are currently headed, it will correct the course to take you to your specified destination(s). In other words, you dont have to know what heading to take, it will do that for you. Whether you find this beneficial or not is your call. Sounds like maybe not.

erich

Neither TT nor Trio's autopilots can hold heading without an external reference. Hook them up to a gps and they can hold ground track. Hook them up to an EFIS and they can hold heading. With no external input they will do their best as wing levelers, e.g., hold zero turn rate. You will see a slow drift in the heading. If this meets your needs then you don't need the external reference.
They will hold altitude on their own.

James, depending on the autopilot, you may not need a GPS, but - at least with the TruTrak - you get infinitely more satisfying results with a GPS.

Now, having said that, you can use nearly any GPS that has a serial OUT and supports NMEA. As a point of reference, I bought an old Garmin eTrex off of ebay for about $50 to drive my TruTrak for many months ...


I did load a few waypoints into it but it was perfectly fine as-is for holding heading and altitude.

BTW: my eTrex with serial cable is for sale cheap

jbagley said:

I'm considering adding an autopilot to my flying rv6a, but the only thing I really want it to do is hold altitude and heading. As far as I know, you don't need a GPS for that.

Am I missing some great benefit of letting a GPS fly my airplane for me?

Click to expand...

Flying an digital autopilot without GPS assist is like eating a bowl of soup without a spoon. It can be done but is immensely more enjoyable with the proper equipment.

james. For IFR guys, a gps driven autopilot can fly coupled gps approaches with an approach approved gps receiver

gereed75 said:

james. For IFR guys, a gps driven autopilot can fly coupled gps approaches with an approach approved gps receiver

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I looked at this, but quickly stashed the idea in the "not affordable" drawer when I got to $10k. Plus, I hear the yearly GPS updates are kinda pricey.

Thanks all for the replies! I'm still on the fence for buying an autopilot, but at least now it makes more sense to have it GPS coupled.