Right of Way and Overtaking Slower Airplanes

Does anyone want to take credit for the flyby in this video on the 150 heading leaving OSH this morning? The wide angle camera doesn't do the proximity justice, and with the sun angle it doesn't show the tail number (which is probably a good thing for the RV pilot). I suppose one possibility is that he didn't see me at all, and if that is the case, then it is a miracle that we are all still alive. The much more plausible possibility is that he chose to endanger all of us by overtaking us on the wrong side, and much too close- what I would call formation-flying distance.

I know it's Oshkosh, where the skies are dark with airplanes, and we are going to be close to one another, but let's be reasonable!

jaredyates said:

Does anyone want to take credit for the flyby in this video on the 150 heading leaving OSH this morning? The wide angle camera doesn't do the proximity justice, and with the sun angle it doesn't show the tail number (which is probably a good thing for the RV pilot). I suppose one possibility is that he didn't see me at all, and if that is the case, then it is a miracle that we are all still alive. The much more plausible possibility is that he chose to endanger all of us by overtaking us on the wrong side, and much too close- what I would call formation-flying distance.

I know it's Oshkosh, where the skies are dark with airplanes, and we are going to be close to one another, but let's be reasonable!

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I think a more plausible explanation is that the RV pilot definitely had you in sight and knew there would be no safety compromise by overtaking you. It could be that moving over enough to overtake you on the right would have been a pretty drastic maneuver for the RV considering the difference in airspeed. Often the mass departures will put a fast aircraft on the left side of a much slower aircraft. Moving over to the slow aircraft's right side could really make a mess of the traffic flow in a congested situation. I have been "guilty" of overtakes on the left several times when departing S-N-F and OSH in the RV-6 because that was the safest way to overtake a much slower aircraft.

Sorry you were spooked by the unexpected overtake but let's give the other pilot credit for maintaining a safe distance at an angle/altitude where he could watch you in very crowded skies.

Right of way

That spooked you ???? You are kidding right ??

I watched the video 10 times and never saw the RV.

That said, I popped out of a cloud leaving OSH 11 and found myself with a windshield full of Cherokee. I passed him on the left side at approximately 100 feet and 50+ knots. Knowing that you're supposed to remain on runway heading for xx miles gives some comfort in the knowledge that nobody is going to be making any wild turns. Quickly overtaking a slower aircraft, even if well inside the "normal" separation distance, should be expected leaving OSH. Everyone has to be on their "A game"... There just isn't enough airspace to fit everyone in.

Reduced separation is normal in the notamed OSH airspace, a point accepted by all. Your paths were not converging.

Were I the overtaking pilot, I would not have switched sides, as I would have no way of knowing what might be overtaking me. Everyone is best served by maintaining stable, consistent headings.

Anyway, the practical view might be that he passed where he was most likely to be seen by you; pilot's side, below the high wing, eye level...and as Sam said, had eyeballs on you the entire time.

What's the Issue?

Took me 4 repeats to see the RV. Appears to be way out there. How close do you think he came? Didn't see any deviation - just a fast straight get by you.

It's Oshkosh departure with no standard enforced departure speed - what do you expect?

not much of an issue at OSH

Likely saw you just fine.... in the few seconds he/she took to pass by.
Would not give it much thought. Doubt if most experienced pilots here see any safety concerns at all. Keep learning...
I am a student pilot with 4 decades in and lots of green plastic in my wallet.

Yep, all three years I have flown my airplane to Osh I have taken off behind slower traffic on 36 and have decided to pass them on the left.

This year it was a bright yellow Sonex.

If you follow the departure procedure for 36, it is bound to happen.

I feel like it is much safer to pass them on the left vs an aggressive turn to the right side when you have airplanes doing the same departure procedure right behind you and you don't want to get into the approach path to 36L/R. And remember that they want you to avoid the sea plane base as well. Makes for a crowded corridor...

I try and keep eyeballs on any slower traffic taking off in front of me at Osh because I know I will catch them before I am clear of the class D.

I always watch what type of planes are taking off in front of me so I know how soon I may be catching them. Problem is it is hard to see who is behind you even when spending 30 minutes in line for launch. Never know who maybe passing me.

If that spec moving past was the RV in question I fail to see the problem. If that is "formation distance" then I'm doing it wrong.

I once came on a Cherokee that happened to be on the exact same heading I was at the exact same altitude I was on a long cross country. Saw him something like 5 miles ahead of me. As I gained on him I realized we literally had to be going the same place. Once I got closer I slid out to the left and passed, waved as I went by, and then slid back in front when forward a good distance.

I probably passed closer than the plane in the video but never considered it an unsafe operation as I had visual on him and, once he as able, made sure he had visual on me.

Once past him a safe distance I considered doing a quick roll but that seemed unsporting and too much like rubbing it in.

Maybe just trying

to get a good look at your nice Bearhawk!

In my original post I didn't use a very descriptive term to describe our separation, but based on my prior known visual references like runway width and hangar width, I'd estimate that we had about 150 feet fuselage to fuselage. The wide angle camera makes it look much further, so I can understand why someone who only saw the video would say it's no big deal. For those who generally think it's no big deal to blast close by a slower airplane who doesn't know you're coming, I'd suggest the following reading:
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20090525X10235&ntsbno=ERA09LA302B&akey=2
Pilot experience doesn't have much of anything to do with safety in this case. To say that this was a learning experience to broaden my comfort level with proximity to other airplanes is missing the point entirely. That's what we do with pre-planned, pre-briefed formation flying. There is a specific way to go about it, to satisfy both practical and regulatory requirements.
I could have easily been distracted, taken a turn to avoid something else, or otherwise deviated from my course without much time for the other pilot to react. We accept this kind of close vehicle proximity risk in highway driving, only because we have to. And driving on the highway is still a very convenient way to die. On roads we have brakes, and tires that make positive contact with the ground to create much faster maneuverability. The turning/pitching radius of a flight path, even the flight path of an RV that feels very maneuverable and light on the controls, is not insignificant.
The point of my original post is that if the other pilot had me in sight, he/she was taking an unnecessary risk to pass so close by. There is plenty of room in the sky to give me a little more space, so why not 500 feet? What is there to gain from being so close, other than a brief thrill? I'd rather have a few more decades of recreation and education instead, for myself and the rest of my family on board. It's not that I was scared or nervous about it. I didn't have any opportunity to experience emotions or make any decisions, since the overtaking pilot (once again, assuming I was in sight) held those roles exclusively. Rather I'm just disappointed in the choices of my fellow pilot, and I'd like to instigate a discussion that might shape the judgement of another fellow pilot that might be in a similar situation one day. Don't make foolish decisions, and especially don't make them at a non-participating party's expense.

ROW & Overtaking

In the vid you seem to be fixated on the camera; not so safe.

Toobuilder said:

That said, I popped out of a cloud leaving OSH 11 and found myself with a windshield full of Cherokee. .

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See and avoid doesn't work if you can't see. Were these aircraft supposedly operating under VFR?

schaplerrh said:

In the vid you seem to be fixated on the camera; not so safe.

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He might have been, but what was the PIC in the left seat doing?

Sounds to me like you should avoid the unacceptable risks of flying to Oshkosh in the future. By the way, ever hear that expression about digging a hole?

If that camera is mounted near your wingtip, and you have 12" N-numbers, I would say he was about 600' away, based on some quick trig.

Right of way

Another 5 seconds of smiling for yor camera and you would have never seen the " offender " . Maybe after you got home and watched it.
It just may have been close , but the vidieo is not helping your argument .

$5 says Sam B steps in within.......... 2 more replies.

Jared, was the other pilot too close. YES.
If you believe he was. Did he have you in sight, probably. Does he have to be so close, maybe not.

To the other posters, WHY ARE WE EATING OUR OWN? Jared is one of us, asking a simple question. There is no way either gentlemen in the photo aircraft could have seen a much faster overtaking aircraft.

Right of way

"Eating one of our own " when did Vans start selling a high wing ?
If any thing he's looking at turning in " one of our own " to the Feds , if it was close enough to see a N Number !!!

I think this has gone south. Poster expressed opinion the pass was too close. Other disagreed. Positioned staked, then defended. Noting more to come of it.

In my own experience I've had a close encounter where a landing Comanche's gear filled the Champ's I was flying windscreen. Now that was a near miss IMHO and based on that frame of reference this one didn't come close. But in such things YMMV and as pointed out if the pilot thought it was too close it was.

I suspect the pilot of the offending airplane may have a different opinion yet I suspect for a lot of reasons we'll never hear that side of the story.

As for eating our own that seems to be an almost obsession with aviators who seem to like to argue a position to the point of tedium.

Its unfortunate that the incident happened that led to the discussion in the first place as it obviously shook up the poster. Its also obvious that I doubt anyone's mind is going to be changed about the relative danger or appropriateness of the maneuver in question.

Seems to be a trend here. The planes have gotten so easy to build we spend more time talking about other stuff.

But I sure had fun at Oshkosh and am glad left Wednesday and hardly saw any other planes on the way out.

Couple of Things You Need To Know About RVs

If you build (or buy) an RV, you receive two certificates- one says "I'm a Great Pilot", the other says "I have the right to..."
You're free to use these whenever any non-RV pilot raises any issue, even if it's safety related. They entitle you to use sarcasm and rudeness at your discretion.

Read some of the posts about flying into OSH. You'll see there's a fair contingent that feel that the NOTAM doesn't apply to them. Call them to task and you'll get all sorts of feedback. They have the right...

Here's the problem with someone blowing by you in close proximity (too close is YOUR call, not theirs) - you don't know if the pilot is a 25,000 hour Airbus test pilot flying his RV8, or some 150 hour Top Gun wanna be exercising a 100 mph brain in a 200 mph airplane. Unfortunately, there's far more of the latter.

Thanks for posting something that should be thought provoking and offer some learning value. In the future, please remember that you're addressing RV pilots, and we have "the right".

Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP

When you have different speed airplanes departing the same runway within in seconds of one another, turning to the same heading and staying below 1300 ft until clearing KOSH airspace; how could you not have airplanes passing in relatively close proximity. Your head needs to be on a swivel when arriving or departing Oshkosh and not staring at your wing camera.

John Morgan

OK seriously, could we stop accusing him of staring at his camera? That's the passenger.

Passing too close

I agree with the original poster?.. and I give him credit for coming on an RV forum and criticizing an RV pilot. Problem is, he can't win here. If he'd been in an RV and a Falco or something other than an RV had done the same thing you'd all be up in arms?.. very biased forum here.

marsolgp said:

?.. very biased forum here.

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VansAirforce.com... go figure.....

Just a few numbers using Specs and trig.

Well, judging distances in the air are very difficult. I just did a few calculations based on the/your 180 hp bear hawk. Length 23' wingspan 33' , and camera location at the rib for mounting the wing tip.

Your estimated speed (based on book cruise) 140mph
RV speed 200 MPH

Speed delta 88ft/sec

Time to pass from tail to off wing, based on camera time being accurate 3.9 sec.

Triangulation for the fuse to fuse distance, ~350 feet. If the RV was going slower or you faster that would put him closer. All numbers subject to accuracy improvement.

Just a few calculations - - but if you say it felt close, who am I to disagree.

Nice plane BTW - I bet it is fun to play with. So - is and RV going to be your "second" plane?

terrykohler said:

If you build (or buy) an RV, you receive two certificates- one says "I'm a Great Pilot", the other says "I have the right to..."
You're free to use these whenever any non-RV pilot raises any issue, even if it's safety related. They entitle you to use sarcasm and rudeness at your discretion.

Read some of the posts about flying into OSH. You'll see there's a fair contingent that feel that the NOTAM doesn't apply to them. Call them to task and you'll get all sorts of feedback. They have the right...

Here's the problem with someone blowing by you in close proximity (too close is YOUR call, not theirs) - you don't know if the pilot is a 25,000 hour Airbus test pilot flying his RV8, or some 150 hour Top Gun wanna be exercising a 100 mph brain in a 200 mph airplane. Unfortunately, there's far more of the latter.

Thanks for posting something that should be thought provoking and offer some learning value. In the future, please remember that you're addressing RV pilots, and we have "the right".

Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP

Click to expand...

Terry,
That was very judgmental. I've been flying my RV-8 for 14 years and I don't remember receiving either of those certificates! I don't know of any other RV pilots in my circle that have received them either. Did you get them when you started flying your RV-9A? Funny that you mentioned the RV-8 in your example. I guess the 9a prepared you better to understand Top Gun wanna be pilots exercising their 100 mph brain in 200 mph airplanes! I tried to let this one go, and just bite my lip. Sorry I failed!