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Floor insulation

KatanaPilot

Well Known Member
I have searched and I'm still in search of more information -

Getting ready to build an RV-10 fuselage and trying to determine the best (not lowest cost) method of insulating the under-floor area (primarily for noise reduction).

I've reviewed the SoundEx website, the Plane Patterns website and find both a bit lacking. I will call them to discuss their respective products.

Both Aircraft Spruce and Summit Racing are nearby, so I have them available too.

If anyone that has insulated their RV-10 floor area, I would like to have feedback on what you used. If you bought a pre-made kit, please let me know that quality of the product and how well it fit to the structure. If you bought the Plane Patterns and cut your own, what material did you use and how well did the patterns match?

Thanks much!
 
I used this and am happy with the results: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/cs/insulation/insulator3.php
Part # 09-06016
Installation is as simple as cutting to size and using aluminum tape to hold in place. I installed this on the firewall, under the floors and on the side panels.

I know of one RV-10 that used a black foam type insulation under the floors that he had to rip out because of off gassing when it got warm. I don't know if this was the product but it looked just like it: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/soundproofinstall.php?clickkey=265858
This stuff is also pretty heavy.

Carl
 
There are some excellent discussions on VAF of this issue, including tests. Here are three threads to get you started.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=131516&highlight=insulation

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=112905&highlight=insulation

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=37012&highlight=insulation

If you do an advanced search for insulation and DanH as the author, looking for postings, you'll find these and numerous others.

Dave
 
I've reviewed the SoundEx website, the Plane Patterns website and find both a bit lacking. I will call them to discuss their respective products.

Rubber and plastic foams are extremely bad choices on the inside of a firewall, or the forward floor. Perfectly fine for cabin sidewalls starting a few inches aft of the firewall, and the floor starting maybe 2 feet back from the firewall.
 
Ok Dan! You just blew a hole in my plans :)

I am going to do the Fibrefrax/ Stainless sandwich on the engine side of the firewall and was planning to do a Fibrefrax/ stainless layer on the bottom of my tunnel as well. Sounds like that is unwise.

It there anything that would be recommended for that first foot or two on the tunnel floor behind the firewall? All the posts I've followed had been about the engine side of the firewall vs the cabin side. i don't think I've seen much on the tunnel floor insulation.
Thanks!
 
It there anything that would be recommended for that first foot or two on the tunnel floor behind the firewall? All the posts I've followed had been about the engine side of the firewall vs the cabin side. i don't think I've seen much on the tunnel floor insulation.
Thanks!

I plan to use just a fiberfrax/SS Foil sandwich for the front tunnel section. The sections behind that it's a Fiberfrax/SS Foil/Insulation wrapped up like you're steaming a rack of ribs... Leaving the foam out of the front one so I don't interfere with the filter, pump, cube brackets.... still not sure what I'm doing on the cabin side behind the firewall..
 
Ok Dan! You just blew a hole in my plans

Beats the alternative.

I am going to do the Fibrefrax/ Stainless sandwich on the engine side of the firewall and was planning to do a Fibrefrax/ stainless layer on the bottom of my tunnel as well. Sounds like that is unwise.

Engine side firewall...good.

Inside the tunnel...bad. In addition to smoke/flame production from the binder in the fiberfrax, insulating the backside of the aluminum floor pretty much guarantees it will melt more quickly:

rise in material temperature = energy in minus energy out.

Insulation inside the tunnel floor means same energy in and less energy out, thus less time to reach melt temperature.

It there anything that would be recommended for that first foot or two on the tunnel floor behind the firewall? All the posts I've followed had been about the engine side of the firewall vs the cabin side. i don't think I've seen much on the tunnel floor insulation.

Sure, same principle as the firewall...insulate on the hot side. That way you never heat the structure at all.

Several builders have simply riveted a fiberfrax/stainless foil overlay on the outside of the belly skin, width same as the cowl exit, extending rearward 24" or so. Seal the edges with FireBarrier 2000, or even proseal.
 
Door #3

After looking at the choices, the cost, and the time to install, I asked a few pilots that have flown in aircraft with/without the insulation.
The feedback I was given was that there was little difference in noise when you're using a quality ANR headset.

I chose to build on.
 
Thanks for the replies

Sounds like anything I could do for noise suppression might create bigger issues in the event of a fire.

More homework required...
 
TFeeney - I did the same. No insulation for noise. However, I do want to insulate to avoid a hot tunnel...
 
Yep... Looks like that's direction I'm heading, Dan! I was realllllly hoping to avoid that but a little extra work is much better than having my shoes on fire.. and then my legs, etc, etc, etc.
 
I know there's probably a joke there, but is this type of foam bad? Because I shot it all under my front floorboards...

No joke.

Per your construction blog, you filled the spaces under your RV-10's front floorboards with "Great Stuff Fireblock Foam".

A foam fireblock product is intended to merely stop airborne smoke flow through openings around conduits, pipes, and ducts. It is not fireproof. It's not even fire resistant.

The manufacturer's literature (Dow) is specific:

6. Cured foam is combustible and will burn if exposed to
temperatures above 240°F (116°C). Do not apply GREAT STUFF™
foam around heaters, high heat lamps or recessed lighting
fixtures, radiators, furnaces or fireplaces where it could
contact heat conducting surfaces.


As a polyurethane, decomposition products include fun stuff like hydrogen cyanide, and lots and lots of black smoke.

Don't like reading technical information? There's always YouTube:

https://youtu.be/LRunqPGHIGU (caution, bad language)

https://youtu.be/djB4dmfHhQk (clean comparison)

Note the product that seems to test well in the second video is the Abesco foam John referenced in post #5. "Seems" is the operative word, because it is self extinguishing, not fireproof. It stops burning when the heat source is removed, but in the RV-10 floor application, it is not possible to remove the heat source at will. The Abesco foam will burn and emit smoke just as you see in the video, for as long as it takes to extinguish the firewall forward heat source.

The only good news here is that the RV-10's doors have been demonstrated to tear away when opened in flight, so you should be able to ventilate.
 
Putty Pads

Dan,
In commercial construction, we use putty pads -fire resistant sheets about an eight inch thick to wrap around pipes with wires or seal an electrical box on a firewall. They come in n sheets about a foot square. Do you have any experience with them? We tried to burn through one and it tested better than I thought. I will have to get specs on them and do some real testing. I will post what I find out.

Edit: I found the spec sheet. http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/201513O/3mtmfire-barrier-moldable-putty-pads-mpp-product-data-sheet.pdf

It may be able to be used around or over firewall penetrations the same way that it is used in the construction industry. I will try the torch test today and see what happens. We tried to lite it previously and could not - but a torch is a better test.

Edit: Today I tried to burn through the putty pad with a Map gas torch - I could not burn through in one minute of trying. It smelled a bit like burning rubber but not a huge amount of fumes or smoke. I could touch the other side of the pad with my finger without burning it. I will set it up better and use a scanning thermometer to get a better temp reading. It sagged, but overall I was impressed. It is NOT something you would use for the whole firewall. It would add probably 2-3 pounds. It MAY be a good choice to wrap around wires or other firewall pass throughs - just like it is used in buildings. It is more like a sheet of fire caulking. Before I would use it, I would like to know if the fumes were toxic.
 
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I really don't think it is worth the effort/cost/weight to add any sort of noise insulation. I fly with a Bose A20 headset and it's just fine. Even when I have forgotten to switch on the ANR, it wasn't so bad as to immediately alert me.
 
Not to beat a dead horse, but it need not be this hard. As I previously posted, I used this product on the cabin side of the firewall, under the floors, on the tunnel floor and on the sides (the double foil version). http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/cs/insulation/insulator3.php

This product is easy to install, and you are not experimenting with non aircraft stuff. I have no problem with floor, firewall or tunnel heat. This is the second RV I used this in, and will use it again in the new RV-8 project.

One point not discussed is the amount of noise coming from the huge echo chamber created by the canopy top. This will override any results from using heavier and less than fire resistant stuff on the bottom and sides.

As Dan so well laid out, don't even think about putting insulation in your airplane that is not standard airplane stuff. If you already have, consider removing it.

Carl
 
I've installed the 0.5" thickness of this material from Aircraft Spruce under the floors of my RV-10. It is said to "Has fire retardant qualities and meets FAR 25.853a Appendix F, Pt1". http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/supersoundproofsheet.php

I am using the QB fuse so needed something that I could slide under the flooring in front, which is already tied down by the main gear mounts. This was easy to size & cut (used an electric carving knife to cut the material) based on the rivet patterns showing the locations of the floor ribs.

Since I'm not flying yet, I can't state what the actual impact on sound levels might be.

Cheers,
Dave M.
 
Thanks for the advice

Not to beat a dead horse, but it need not be this hard. As I previously posted, I used this product on the cabin side of the firewall, under the floors, on the tunnel floor and on the sides (the double foil version). http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/cs/insulation/insulator3.php

This product is easy to install, and you are not experimenting with non aircraft stuff. I have no problem with floor, firewall or tunnel heat. This is the second RV I used this in, and will use it again in the new RV-8 project.

One point not discussed is the amount of noise coming from the huge echo chamber created by the canopy top. This will override any results from using heavier and less than fire resistant stuff on the bottom and sides.

As Dan so well laid out, don't even think about putting insulation in your airplane that is not standard airplane stuff. If you already have, consider removing it.

Carl

Reading a couple of early responses to my question had me convinced that any form of insulation not on the outside of the skin was a bad idea.

I can't help but wonder what is done in Part 23 certified airplanes and if, in some cases, these materials may also contribute to smoke and/or fumes if ignited.

I'm trying to not add significantly to the inherent risk of building and flying an experimental airplane. That being said, it seems like the prudent addition of certain materials on the inside of the structure may positively contribute to heat and/or noise reduction - which is my desired goal.
 
more

I think that there needs to be a little common sense here.

Where do we draw the line in trying to make these machines "safe"?

There is a risk assessment in every decision that we make when building and flying. One thing is for sure, the only way to make an airplane 100% safe is not to build one...or fly one.

Point is, there is a lot of great info here but there is ALWAYS going to be differing opinions...anyone remember the primer wars?

That being said, has anyone given any thought to the fire/smoke characteristics of the primers used on a lot of these builds? Specifically, the SW P60 G2 primer that the QB kits are covered in?:eek:
 
Not to beat a dead horse, but it need not be this hard. As I previously posted, I used this product on the cabin side of the firewall, under the floors, on the tunnel floor and on the sides (the double foil version). http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/cs/insulation/insulator3.php

This product is easy to install, and you are not experimenting with non aircraft stuff.

Cotton fiber, on the cabin side of a firewall, is a really, really bad idea.

Tell us why you think it's a aircraft product. I see ASTM E84, UL723, and FMVSS standards, none of which are appropriate for an in-cabin application in contact with a firewall. Hear and believe brother; there is no organic fiber product suitable for firewall contact, period.

http://bondedlogic.com/pdf/radiant-barrier/radiant-barrier-spec-sheet.pdf

I've installed the 0.5" thickness of this material from Aircraft Spruce under the floors of my RV-10. It is said to "Has fire retardant qualities and meets FAR 25.853a Appendix F, Pt1". http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/supersoundproofsheet.php

Perfectly appropriate for cabin sidewalls beginning some distance aft of the firewall, as well as belly skin aft of the hot zone...like aft of the rear spar. It's a poor choice under the front floorboards. We've seen at least one RV-10 engine compartment fire which strongly suggests foam will ignite in that location. It will certainly hasten melt-through of the outer skin.

This product is claimed to meet FAR 25.853a Appendix F, Pt1, which is why it is appropriate for sidewalls and cold floors. Although desirable, the standard only guarantees that the product is self-extinguishing with 15 seconds after the heat source is removed. Think Little Johnny in the men's room with his daddy's cigarette lighter.

FAR25.853 products burn merrily when placed in contact with a hot firewall.

That being said, has anyone given any thought to the fire/smoke characteristics of the primers used on a lot of these builds? Specifically, the SW P60 G2 primer that the QB kits are covered in?:eek:

Perfectly fine on the inside of skins. The QB facility does not spray anything on the cabin side of a firewall. Nor should you.
 
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Reading a couple of early responses to my question had me convinced that any form of insulation not on the outside of the skin was a bad idea.

I can't help but wonder what is done in Part 23 certified airplanes and if, in some cases, these materials may also contribute to smoke and/or fumes if ignited.

I'm trying to not add significantly to the inherent risk of building and flying an experimental airplane. That being said, it seems like the prudent addition of certain materials on the inside of the structure may positively contribute to heat and/or noise reduction - which is my desired goal.
there is a vast amount of experiential and experimental test result knowledge here appropriatly discussing the safety issues associated with installation of insulation as it relates to fire/smoke risks inside the cockpit. It is a wise builder who heeds this advice.

Having said this however, I am concluding from your comment here that you are just as interested in the "comfort" factor of insulating your airplane. I have a couple of comments on that notion. First, if you are like the rest of us RV builders/flyers, you have chosen to build, and hope to one day fly, a particular type of aircraft based a great deal on the performance characteristics of this type of aircraft. That is the idea it is a fast economical airplane that has a variety of exceptional performance characteristics you value.

Well, you do fully understand that one of the reasons these RVs meet those performance characteristics is in no small part due to the power to weight ratio? Outside of the safety factor do not lose sight of the fact that adding this insulation will affect the weight of the plane, and consequently, the performance of it. Yes, there may be some small improvement of noise cancelation inside the cockpit but that gain has a fairly steep price to pay. Especially when for little to no weight expense a good set of headsets will accomplish a lot more toward managing noise.

Second, concerning the heat isue, as has been pointed out by many on here who have gone before you, placing pretty much any kind of insulation material inside the cockpit is not only dangerous should there be fire or smoke but it is also being suggested that placing insulation outside the cockpit is a more efficient method of keeping fire and smoke out of the cockpit.

What I am reading from your question is the notion that the certificated world has done this insulation inside the cockpit thing in GA aircraft so why not do it that way in my build? Well, no reason why you cannot. Except for the fact that if you indeed build your RV as Cessna built planes you will not end up with an RV. You will end up with a CESSNA!

Live Long and Prosper!
 
Got it, thanks

Although my aero degree from the North Avenue Trade School is long dormant, I think I recall the effects of weight on aircraft performance.

I am planning on installing air conditioning and I am at least somewhat aware of the complexity it adds (and the weight). I prefer not to sweat in the summer heat in Florida and Georgia where we live.

I have Lightspeed Zulu 2's and will upgrade to the PFX if needed.

My question was simply is there a product that can be installed under the floors to reduce the heat and noise without being a fire hazard. What I'm hearing is "no, not really". The weight of said products is less of a concern. I was also asking if there was a product used in the certified airplane world for the same thing. The answers were less clear.

I am not trying to build the lightest RV-10 out there, the least expensive nor the best performer. I am hoping to build a safe, well constructed airplane that will carry me and my spouse in comfort - a reasonable distance at a reasonable speed. There are airplanes in the certified world that meet most of my needs and are affordable to me. However, building my own airplane is a long held desire and is why I'm here.
 
Stainless foil

So my plan is to use fiberfrax with a ss foil cover on the engine side of the firewall.

I was looking at using the High Temp 309 SS foil offered by mcmaster for this purpose:


High-Temperature Multipurpose 309 Stainless Steel
Often used in heat exchangers and furnaces, 309 provides good corrosion resistance at elevated temperatures because of its high levels of chromium and nickel. It maintains its corrosion resistance up to 1500? F, is not heat treatable, and may become slightly magnetic when worked.

Warning: Physical, mechanical, and chemical properties are not guaranteed and are intended only as a basis for comparison.
Foil?Unpolished (Cold Rolled)

Yield Strength: Not rated
Hardness: Medium (Rockwell B75)
Meets ASTM A240
Use this foil as a heat-treating wrap in temperatures up to 2250? F. It includes a crimping tool. All sizes are annealed. Width tolerance is +0.75", ?0.01". Length tolerance is ?3/4".


Thoughts?

Also, is there a recommend method of attachment? SS blind rivets and do I need a bunch or just enough to keep the sandwich in place?...I would hate to drill that many holes in the firewall...

Anybody have photos of theirs?
 
How about that foil...

Will the foil I previously posted from McMaster work ok or is the another product to look at?
 
Will the foil I previously posted from McMaster work ok or is the another product to look at?

No practical difference between 304 and 309 in this application. 304 costs less. 0.002" thickness is adequate for a firewall overlay. 0.005" might offer a little better appearance, but obviously would weigh more than twice as much.



What do you think of the bio therm products for a fire sealant?

A single Rectorseal product was checked below. You should not make assumptions about any other product from the same company....or a similar product from another company.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=72087&highlight=biotherm

Returning to floors...

The photo below was posted by a member of our community after his forced landing. A loose fuel fitting near the engine driven fuel pump caused a fire. The fire, as can be expected, followed the airstream, meaning out the cowl exit.

That's when things started getting ugly. The inside of the tunnel was insulated with what is believed to have been an aluminized polyester fiber mat, a product a popular vendor had been selling as "firewall insulation". Insulating the backside of an aluminum panel means energy escape from that side is slowed. So, two things happened in short order....the aluminum belly skin melted, and the polyester insulation caught fire.

Even with the powerplant secured, the pilot now found himself with a fire in the tunnel and thick black smoke in the cockpit. He jettisoned a door, which ventilated the cockpit enough for a successful landing in a field. The fire in the tunnel continued to burn after landing, and was not extinguished until much later. Aircraft was a total loss.

Yes, you're looking down through the bottom of the airplane. BTW, note the melted fluid lines.



The builder/pilot did a great job dealing with the emergency, but he was also very lucky. In this case the tunnel contained the insulation fire. The same insulation on the backside of an RV firewall, open to the cockpit, would have severely injured or killed him. This is what happens when you place polyester fiber insulation in contact with hot stainless:



I would not expect the post-consumer recycled denim insulation recommended by Carl to do much better. Remember, "flame retardant" or "flame resistant" merely means the fire will eventually self-extinguish when the heat source is removed. With the heat source active, the material may burn like **** itself and still wear the FAR 25.853 approval.

This is an insulation appropriate for the temperature and heat flux specified for a firewall. It is alumina silica refractory fiber, with no sizing or binder. The burner is running on the opposite side in this photo (same burner, same setting as previous photo), and has been for several minutes. You can see the stainless sheet glowing red near the top.



The downside to the refractory fiber is some degree of lung cancer risk for unprotected users. If the builder wears breathing protection and fully encapsulates the fiber inside an aluminum foil envelope before installation, this is a safe product for use inside the airplane. However, I can't recommend it for three reasons. (1) If used to insulate the back side of an aluminum panel subjected to flame, it will cause the aluminum to melt through more quickly. (2) Such an approach does nothing to protect the airframe. (3) Compared to insulating on the hot side, it is not nearly as effective.

Same burner again, foil/ceramic felt on the hot side. The rivets and aluminum angle are just as they are in your RV firewall. Note they are entirely intact, rather than melted as they would be if the insulation was on the cabin side. This is several minutes into the burn. The black heat target is 6" from the firewall, and simulates the soles of your shoes, here at 178F. No smoke, no flame transfer to the cockpit, firewall structurally intact. This is a survivable environment.



Let's wise up out there, please. Plastic, rubber, paint and foam in firewall contact has the potential to kill you dead as canned fish. With an RV-10, we're likely to find ourselves mourning a family.
 
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RV-10 Install

In your suggestions you show a layer of fiberfrax covered by the SS foil. The -10 does not have a flat firewall. This area would need to be covered with pieces of FF and SS foil, I would assume using the overlap technique with the aluminum tape would be adequate in this area?

Also, did you attach your firewall penetrations to the firewall first and the cut the FF and foil to go around them or do the penetrations sandwich the FF and foil?

Thanks!
 
I would assume using the overlap technique with the aluminum tape would be adequate in this area?

Mechanically fixed overlaps (read "riveted") are fine. The tape is merely an environmental sealant, which immediately melts in the event of fire. When it does, it provides a vent for the outgassing from the fiberfrax's binder, the "glue" that makes it into felt. Put another way, that overlap seam in the drawing has a very specific purpose.

BTW, the outgassing is why you don't want to put fiberfrax felt on the inside of a firewall.

Also, did you attach your firewall penetrations to the firewall first and the cut the FF and foil to go around them or do the penetrations sandwich the FF and foil?

Enough. There are many, many previous posts on this subject, with several hundred thousand views. Please, do the reading, and then, if you still have a question, fire away.
 
Also, did you attach your firewall penetrations to the firewall first and the cut the FF and foil to go around them or do the penetrations sandwich the FF and foil?

Currently all a work in progress for me but for now I've used a thin layer of 3M 2000+ as adhesive between the Firewall and the Fiber, and then the Fiber and the foil. Also used it to seal the connections between segmented pieces. It's holding remarkably well. Waiting on some SS pull rivets but my plan is to do all the attachments over these layers and I may just put a few in on an seam area's that seem loose. I have a slight concern that over time with the heat and vibration that it will start to pull away but if that happens I can just toss some rivets in as needed.
 
Attachments

As far as "attachments" , are you saying you are going to attach the engine mount over this sandwich as well? I could see the firewall penetrations but the engine mount? I would think you would cut around it...
 
Either cut the insulation away where the engine mount attaches (with minimal gap) or put an aluminum shim, the thickness of the insulation, under the stainless foil.

Dave
 
Same burner again, foil/ceramic felt on the hot side. The rivets and aluminum angle are just as they are in your RV firewall. Note they are entirely intact, rather than melted as they would be if the insulation was on the cabin side. This is several minutes into the burn. The black heat target is 6" from the firewall, and simulates the soles of your shoes, here at 178F. No smoke, no flame transfer to the cockpit, firewall structurally intact. This is a survivable environment.



Let's wise up out there, please. Plastic, rubber, paint and foam in firewall contact has the potential to kill you dead as canned fish. With an RV-10, we're likely to find ourselves mourning a family.

Dan,
If you ever light off your burner for another test, could you duplicate this test with paint on the aluminum angle only? And measure the actual temp of the "firewall"? I think it would be a good illustration...
 
The OP has said twice that his primary interest in insulating is for sound proofing. That was my motivation when I insulated my -10 from firewall to baggage bulkhead with SoundMat, including floor and side walls. Aside from the wisdom, or lack thereof in case of fire, I paid a 20 # weight penalty for that decision. I have had numerous people tell me it is the quietest -10 they have been in, but it is still way too noisy to fly without a quality ANR headset. I would not do it again.
 
As far as "attachments" , are you saying you are going to attach the engine mount over this sandwich as well? I could see the firewall penetrations but the engine mount? I would think you would cut around it...

I will most likely cut around the engine mount sections and then use the 3M stuff to seal it up. Haven't gotten there yet.
 
Almost anything you do isn't good enough.
Your best bet is to not do anything.
Luckily fires are extremely rare and preparing for such an event is extremely difficult.
I insulated my sub floors with a layer of firewall insulation and a layer of closed cell foam.
Spending your effort on fire prevention is a far better idea than selecting the right material for insulation.
I have a very quiet RV-10.
 
Thank you

The OP has said twice that his primary interest in insulating is for sound proofing. That was my motivation when I insulated my -10 from firewall to baggage bulkhead with SoundMat, including floor and side walls. Aside from the wisdom, or lack thereof in case of fire, I paid a 20 # weight penalty for that decision. I have had numerous people tell me it is the quietest -10 they have been in, but it is still way too noisy to fly without a quality ANR headset. I would not do it again.

This is the information I was seeking, although the expert advice as to flammability, location of insulation and the like was very valuable too.

I'll spend my time, effort and money on proper construction methods, leave the insulation out and upgrade my Zulu 2's if needed. Honestly, I'm not sure there is anything practical that can be done to eliminate the hazard of a full blown fire. I haven't seen anything in Part 23 airplanes that is substantially better either.
 
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One of the issues with sound attenuation is the way we hear. Your ears have tremendous dynamic range - something like 10,000,000,000:1. The downside is that humans do not perceive small changes very well. If you were to cut the noise in half - with a lot of work - that's 3 dB, which you would describe as "slightly quieter, I think I can tell the difference".
 
Almost anything you do isn't good enough.
Your best bet is to not do anything.

After much thought about it that's my take on it... I decided to not do anything in the front tunnel part or the inside of the cabin. I can't justify the risk of not knowing if at some point the tunnel is going to catch a blaze... I'll just go ahead and have a fire extinguisher on standby and hope I never have a cabin fire at all.
 
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