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Landing an A model RV

Lemos

Active Member
In preparation to buy an RV, I have done a few demo flights. One today was in an RV-9A. Beautiful aircraft. One noticeable difference relating to the flying characteristics that I noticed with an RV is that in the landing flare the nose is so high that one has to look out the left side of the aircraft to see the runway ahead, and judge height above the runway. Is this normal for RVs, or is this the pilot over-flaring?

I guess you get used to the landing attitude, but it felt pretty weird to me.
 
In preparation to buy an RV, I have done a few demo flights. One today was in an RV-9A. Beautiful aircraft. One noticeable difference relating to the flying characteristics that I noticed with an RV is that in the landing flare the nose is so high that one has to look out the left side of the aircraft to see the runway ahead, and judge height above the runway. Is this normal for RVs, or is this the pilot over-flaring?

I guess you get used to the landing attitude, but it felt pretty weird to me.

Your seat was too low Al.
 
This is a really great question, and in short, the nose being high in the flare, to the point that you need to look to the side, isn't really an RV only thing but it's what the landing attitude may be in many single engine aircraft. If you go to the "school of Mike Seager" in Vernonia, he will really try to get you to flare to the point that it is impossible to see over the nose, forcing you to look off to the side to judge height above the runway, and alignment.

The Student Pilot's Flight Manual by William K. Kershner has a short section that describes the landing flare quite well:

"... It will be impossible to see the ground over the nose in some airplanes in the last stage of the landing transition, as you will see during the landing demonstrations in the early part of your training. Some trainers have "low nose" and it is possible to look directly ahead during the landing. But getting into the habit of looking along the left side of the nose works in all airplanes. You will be sitting on the left in a side by side airplane; the stick and throttle arrangement in a tandem plane also makes it easier for you to turn your head to the left. So you will look out this side after the transition begins."
 
RV6A Landings

I’ve got 1900 hours in a 6A and I can’t recall ever losing sight of the runway and I’m not three-pointing it. Normally I have just enough flare to keep the nose wheel from touching until I bleed off some ground speed. As mentioned, you may need the booster cushion to get you high enough to see over the nose.
 
In preparation to buy an RV, I have done a few demo flights. One today was in an RV-9A. Beautiful aircraft. One noticeable difference relating to the flying characteristics that I noticed with an RV is that in the landing flare the nose is so high that one has to look out the left side of the aircraft to see the runway ahead, and judge height above the runway. Is this normal for RVs, or is this the pilot over-flaring?

I guess you get used to the landing attitude, but it felt pretty weird to me.

I sort of chuckled wean I read this. "Back in the day" as they say, when I was doing autorotations in an AH-1S through "F" model Cobra Helicopters, the only way you know if you were lined up with the runway on the initial flare, was if you couldn't see the runway !! That was business as normal. We got very comfortable with watching the sides of the runway..........
 
I’ve got 1900 hours in a 6A and I can’t recall ever losing sight of the runway and I’m not three-pointing it. Normally I have just enough flare to keep the nose wheel from touching until I bleed off some ground speed. As mentioned, you may need the booster cushion to get you high enough to see over the nose.

You are underflaring. To properly fly a nosewheel rv you MUST have the nose up on landing such that you are unable to see over the nose. Anything less and the nose is too low to the ground.

Source- Dick VanGrunsven in Oshkosh
 
+1 Truth is, you can get away with a lot in a nose wheel airplane on landing, from nose barely off to tail barely off! And some models (-10, at forward cg and full flaps) won’t get really nose high even with full up elevator. But for slowest touchdown speed (less wear on tires and brakes, or really short fields) you want the nose high.
 
This is a really great question, and in short, the nose being high in the flare, to the point that you need to look to the side, isn't really an RV only thing but it's what the landing attitude may be in many single engine aircraft. If you go to the "school of Mike Seager" in Vernonia, he will really try to get you to flare to the point that it is impossible to see over the nose, forcing you to look off to the side to judge height above the runway, and alignment.

After a few landings you won’t even know you are doing it and it becomes second nature to determine your height above ground based on peripheral vision.
If on speed coming over fence (most issues are due to coming in too fast) you should get good at timing the flare just above the runway and only be nose high, with mains off the runway, for a few seconds. You should remain nose high with mains on the runway until you turn off onto the taxiway but once rolling you are not worried about judging altitude, just at staying on centerline.
 
There's one sure way of removing the issue of not seeing the Rwy over the bonnet, remove the 'A':D
 
7A landings

Al,
I haven't landed a 9A but can tell you about the 7A landing. I have my seat height as high as possible, giving me better vis over the nose. With full flaps and around 62-65 KIAS entering the flare and slowing, I ALWAYS touch down on the mains and maintain that nose-high attitude as long as the elevator will keep the nosewheel off the runway surface. I can still see the runway and runway centerline ahead of me over the nose, if only by about two or three inches of clearance over the spinner.

Now, for no-flap landings, it's all the same except I add a few more knots. The flare is steeper in pitch by a couple of degrees, but the mains-only nose-high touchdown technique is unchanged, and I STILL can just see the runway centerline.

Again, not a 9A pilot, but here are my thoughts:
- Check and raise your sitting height (get a wedge cushion for under the seat).
- Check your speeds approaching and entering the flare. If you're losing sight of the runway, you may be flaring at too slow a speed. Still, I urge you to check with an experienced 9A pilot like Vlad or Scott and Tanya Card.
- Whatever you do, please DO NOT decrease your pitch to the point of making 3-point landings in an A-model. That nose strut really is an Achilles heel: It's not meant to absorb the impact of landing. It's a prop for holding up the nose on takeoff and landing after the elevator can't do the job.

Let us know what adjustments you make and how well it works.
 
There's one sure way of removing the issue of not seeing the Rwy over the bonnet, remove the 'A':D

Capt,
Serious question strictly out of curiosity: When you 3-point the non-A RV, can you still see the runway centerline? That seems like an even more extreme pitch angle.
Not throwing shade. I really am curious.
 
Ah landings, the great adventure.

The most important thing that I've learned the 260 or so landings that I've done in my 9A in the past 2 years is that every one of them is a learning opportunity - especially the bad ones. While there is technique that works well in almost every case, it isn't one that can be defined with an airspeed or a pitch angle. So many variables - wind, runway type, length and condition, approach angle, traffic to name a few. Pitch angle alone is useless, if you pull the nose up to the point you can't see the runway ahead, one of 3 things will happen. If you are too fast you will climb and lose speed terrifyingly quickly, if you are too high you stop flying and drop it hard, if you are on speed and time it right you get rewarded with a decent touchdown.

I think any angle above your takeoff roll sight picture will work in most cases. The key point is that you delay the nose wheel contact to the ground as long as you can. If you can land with the nose wheel 3" off the ground and keep it there until you get below say 25 kt, great. Keeping the nose up is easier if it's higher. If you touchdown nose high and then relax the stick pressure, you'll find the nose drops down hard and fast, and probably bounces.

I'm not remotely close to being the most experienced, I've only flow 2 aircraft types (C172 and RV7/9). I like the RV, it's treated me better than I've treated it. Its behavior is quite learnable. If I were to simplify the landing process, 1) slow down as much as you can (<62KT on the 9A gives me the best results), 2) perfect the timing of the flare (no higher than you're willing to drop from), 3) pull back enough that your nose wheel doesn't touch and 4) keep the stick back as long you can (until the rudder is ineffective or you need to brake)
 
Capt,
Serious question strictly out of curiosity: When you 3-point the non-A RV, can you still see the runway centerline? That seems like an even more extreme pitch angle.
Not throwing shade. I really am curious.

I rarely do a 3 pointer in my 8, I do a tail low wheeler, works for me everytime:)
The beauty of a proper conventional U/C RV is you have a choice, the A you don't have a choice! Each to their own:)
 
I rarely do a 3 pointer in my 8, I do a tail low wheeler, works for me everytime:)
The beauty of a proper conventional U/C RV is you have a choice, the A you don't have a choice! Each to their own:)

Actually, in an A model you do have a choice: Either 3-point or mains-only. However, one of those choices is not optimum. :rolleyes:
 
I’ve got 1900 hours in a 6A and I can’t recall ever losing sight of the runway and I’m not three-pointing it. Normally I have just enough flare to keep the nose wheel from touching until I bleed off some ground speed. As mentioned, you may need the booster cushion to get you high enough to see over the nose.
That's my experience in the -9A as well. I'm pretty tall, and that helps me see over the nose in a properly flared attitude.

Although the -9A nose gear will take quite a bit of abuse, it's best to treat it as if it were made of balsa wood. Transition to full back stick as you bleed off speed during the landing roll, and it'll plop down when it's ready, at a nice slow pace.

Sometimes for fun (and practice), I'll land short, add a little power back in, and carry the nose wheel to one of the last taxiways, provided no one is on final behind me.
 
Capt,
Serious question strictly out of curiosity: When you 3-point the non-A RV, can you still see the runway centerline? That seems like an even more extreme pitch angle.
Not throwing shade. I really am curious.

My best 3 pointers (RV6) are with the nose right at taxi attitude (higher will hit the tailwheel first unless you are pitching down as the mains contact, lower and you’ll be faster than necessary). I’m tall and sit just below the canopy and can see most of the centerline (far enough away from the nose) at taxi and 3pt touchdown attitude.

That said, my best altitude clue near touchdown comes from parallax from the runway edges, quite far down the runway.

Many here with more experience, and likely better landings than me tho!

Peter
 
Tip Yer Head Back a Bit

I’ve got time in about 25 types, with the little wheel at both ends. I wouldn’t call myself an expert at 1400 hours total time and I’m not a CFI, but one of my instructors taught me tip my head back a bit in the flare and use my peripheral vision to kind of watch both sides of the runway when the centerline disappears behind the engine. Kinda like playing a video game where you’re watching, or at least monitoring, two or more things at once. Lots of airplanes, both taildraggers and tricycle types will require you to do this. I sit with my head right near the canopy in our RV-6. Three point landings are mine and my CFI wife’s default. We can see down the runway about as well as when we’re taxiing, which is actually pretty good in that type. But landing a Cub or Ciatbria from the back seat will teach you a new way to look. I find nothing alarming about not seeing down the runway in any airplane. IT’s SOP in lots of really good airplanes. In the nosegear-equipped RVs, its imperative that you never land three point, and its really bad technique in all the rest, even though it seems a Cessna 150 or 172 will let you by with it nearly all the time.
 
The most overvalued thing in aviation is a view of the runway over the nose.
Indeed.
During the landing flare you don't want to be looking over the nose, it inhibits your depth perception. You should be looking 15-30 degrees or so off the nose to get the proper depth perception. You use the distance from the runway edge to judge centerline position.

George
 
Indeed.
During the landing flare you don't want to be looking over the nose, it inhibits your depth perception. You should be looking 15-30 degrees or so off the nose to get the proper depth perception. You use the distance from the runway edge to judge centerline position.

George

Easily confirmed with a few night landings.
 
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