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Hartzell 7497 + io-360-M1B vibe?

F

Flying Scotsman

Well Known Member
Trying to make sure that I have the right limitations, if any, on this combination:

Hartzell HC-C2YR-1BF/7497 +
Lycoming XIO-360-M1B

(i.e., the combination sold by Van's)

Hartzell says they have no information on such a combination (operating limitations for MP/RPM ranges a la the 200 HP IO-360, etc.). Closest they have is the IO-360-M1A (no limits).

Anyone have any further info here? Are there any limitations? or not?

TIA
Steve
 
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Good to Go

Steve,

Speak to Les Doud at Hartzell. He arranged a letter for me from one of their Vibration Engineers confirming the IO-360-M1B + 7497 + 1x LSE PLASMA III was ok vibration wise with no restrictions.

Regards,
 
shuttle said:
Speak to Les Doud at Hartzell. He arranged a letter for me from one of their Vibration Engineers confirming the IO-360-M1B + 7497 + 1x LSE PLASMA III was ok vibration wise with no restrictions.
Click to expand...

Say, I don't suppose you could shoot me a copy of that as well? I have the exact same setup: IO-360-M1B + C2YR-1BF/F7497 + single Plasma III.

(edit) I'd be happy to host a copy on my website, if you'd like!

thanks,
mcb
 
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it would be great if I can also get a copy of that letter. I have the exact same setup and was told there is no limitation but don't have any thing in writting.

Thanks
 
Proprietary Data?

Hi Chaps,

Would like to be able to help straight away but the letter says the data is proprietary to Hartzell so I am not sure whether it is appropriate for me to send copies around the internet.

I have emailed Les Doud at Hartzell with a link to this thread and asked him to take a look.

Les, If you're there...
Is it ok for me to pass on copies of my letter?
Or should these folks each contact you direct?

Regards,
 
I called Les today but missed him (left a message). Hopefully, we'll get an answer.

Your setup is not quite the same as what I'll have...I'll be running regular ol' mags, not the Plasma stuff (and I think I've seen the letter you're talking about, which specifically references the electronic ignition).
 
I'll ask

Guys,

I'm in San Bernardino at the moment. I'll ask our Vibration Engineer as soon as practical if we can publish this somehow? It may not be until next week when I return to Piqua. Since the -M1B and Lightspeed are not certified, we cannot list it in the TCDS, only provide some sort of informational sheet at best that some authorities may or may not accept.

Les
 
Hi Les, Thanks for checking in here.

Please note that there are two different setups mentioned in this thread,
-M1B + 7497 + 2x Mag
-M1B + 7497 + 1x Mag + 1x LSE PLASMA CDI

Regards,
 
They need to create then approve a document

Hi Steve,

When you said "I think I've seen the letter you're talking about, which specifically references the electronic ignition" I didn't say anything, but you really cannot have done. No generic Lycoming -M1B/7497 letter exists. There have been documents relating to Hartzell props on Superior engines but they are deemed different to Lycomings and testing (sponsored by whom I don't know) was done on the Superior/7496/EI combination.

I have chased this up with Les for the best part of a year now and Les was finally able to get a letter specifically addressing my a/c past the Vibration Test Engineers. As Les said, no certification testing has been done on the -M1B and 7497 combo because it is not a certified combination. -M1A/7497/Fixed Timing LASAR (used on the Diamond DA-40) has been tested, which I guess was the basis for approving my letter.

I agree with you that it is peculiar that Van's & Hartzell should offer a package with no formal public documentation to back it up. And I do believe that Les thinks the same. Les was very helpful for me and I feel sure he will do all he can to press for an improvement in the matter.

Hang in there. The more people ask for this documentation the greater the chances of it getting published.
 
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You're right...the one I saw was for the Superior. See this thread:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=21362

So does this mean that everyone flying around with the Lycoming IO (or XIO)-360-M1B and the Hartzell prop that they got from Van's (as a combo) is missing some important analysis/paperwork from Hartzell that they should have?

I guess, as I understand it, since there's no certified plane with this combination, a DAR should require a 40 hour Phase I test program, right? Is my understanding of this correct?

I don't care about that so much...what I want to know is is there some region of operations that I should avoid, in order to take care of my engine and prop!

I'm a bit disconcerted to find that there is no such documentation from any company involved here (yet).
 
Steve,

The earlier 7496 prop had RPM avoid bands/Operating restrictions on Lycomings. I originally ordered a 7496 but while waiting for delivery of the prop to Van's I spoke to Hartzell a number of times to get a clear understanding of the restrictions. One of the people I spoke to was Les Doud. I was told by Les (and several others at Hartzell) that I should not buy the 7496 as the new 7497 was a better option, with no restrictions.

This advice left me in a tricky situation. At that time Van's was selling the 7497 for use with the 200HP 360's but still selling the 7496 for the 180HP engines. I figured that Hartzell were the ones to trust on props. I was after all talking to Les - the guy that designed the prop.

So I took a bit of a leap of faith, going against both Van's then recommendation and also the UK LAA (UK authority for homebuilts) approved engine/prop list and changed my order to the 7497. It's never nice being the first one to do something!!

Someone else will need to advise you on your Phase 1 testing - being in the UK, I know nothing about your US Experimental rules.

As I said, there are no operating restrictions on the -M1B/7497 with EI or with two mags. I'm pretty sure that Les has stated this in a post on VAF. He has pushed out a table listing all the engine/Hartzell prop combos and their operating parameters. Do a VAF search for all of Les' posts. The 7497 was designed specifically to address the restrictions on the 7496. The 7497 design was based on the 7496 but is a little bit thicker (at the root I think) and weighs about 1lb more. Les can explain.

I trust Hartzell and the prop but I share your concern, which is why I chased for my letter so that I could atleast prove the prop/engine combo status to the UK LAA. A public -M1B/7497/Ignition options approval document (though clearly not a TCDS update) published by Hartzell would be even better.
 
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Flying Scotsman said:
In the 7497 column, we see:

"Engine: IO-360-M1( )
Crank: 180 Hp w/o dampers
Compression: 8.5:1
Ignition: LASAR
Exhaust: Powerflow"

Van's sells the combo w/ 2 mags and no exhaust (but sells Vetterman's), so this doesn't apply if you buy the "stock" setup.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I am assuming that LASAR and Powerflow config might have been as per the Diamond DA-40 -M1A certification. If Hartzell can write anything up for the -M1B/7497 it would ideally cover mags and/or EI and leave out any mention of a specific exhaust. I have the standard Vetterman CrossOver exhaust which I guess is the most common RV setup on the -M1B.

This is what's facing Hartzell. Extrapolating from that DA-40 config certification to publish a document that assists RVers (with all the legal/liability/etc questions that may entail).
 
Spoke with Les at Hartzell today at length...what a great guy! We talked for quite a while about the various aspects of this issue, and he said they're working on revising paperwork/documentation (and that chart with all the info) and will advise us when it's done. Said for the IO-360-M1B + 7497, no issues for dual mags (the "stock" Van's combination kit), but agreed they need to update their docs, and he will post here to let us know when they get that done.

Totally helpful, nice guy...man, I wish all customer service was like that. Thanks a million, Les!

Steve
 
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