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  #11  
Old 12-17-2015, 10:41 AM
BillFear BillFear is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sherrills Ford, NC (Lake norman area)
Posts: 432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
You didn't mention what brand cylinders are on the engine, or the cylinder finish. My Mattituck built in that era was all ECI components, including Cerminil Cylinders. ECI has a problem with the rings used with Cerminil delaminating, and that produced exactly the symptoms you are seeing. The Cerminil is tricky to hone, because it is so hard, and many shops wouldn't touch them. I was unaware of the ring issue and when I called ECI I told them what was going on, and asked about how to hone and re-ring the cylinders, thinking they were just glazed. I essentially got no help at all, except that they could recondition the cylinders for a price not much less than what a new Lycoming Nitrided stud assembly would cost from A.E.R.O. - so I bought four new jugs and put these on the shelf.

I later talked with an ECI VP (this was a few years ago) at SnF, and was told that they certainly would have taken care of me because they knew about the ring issues - I had to thank him for nothing, because by then, I'd already been flying with the Lycoming cylinders.

Bottom line - if you have Cerminil, you might call ECI directly and see if they will help you out.
Paul, we found the build sheet on our Mattituck engine and it was specd with Titan Nickel Carbide cylinder assemblied. I assume these are not the same as you mentioned you had the issue with??

In reading some additional posts, are ECI and Titan the same company?
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  #12  
Old 12-17-2015, 11:02 AM
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Don George in Orlando FL.

http://www.dongeorgeaircraft.com/
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  #13  
Old 12-22-2015, 11:23 AM
BillFear BillFear is offline
 
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Default Thanks I spoke to him

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymo View Post
Don George in Orlando FL.

http://www.dongeorgeaircraft.com/
Don told me he would move towards replacement as the ECI cylinders we have on the plane are probably part of the AD anyway. I need to get the cowl off to check the serial numbers to confirm.

I also spoke to Danbury aerospace who now owns any warranty responsibility for the older ECI products. Both Ty Stoller and Jimmy Tubbs seem very willing to get involved to help out. Again, I need the serial numbers before I can take the next steps.

Thanks to all for your inputs.
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  #14  
Old 01-09-2016, 04:09 PM
BillFear BillFear is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
You didn't mention what brand cylinders are on the engine, or the cylinder finish. My Mattituck built in that era was all ECI components, including Cerminil Cylinders. ECI has a problem with the rings used with Cerminil delaminating, and that produced exactly the symptoms you are seeing. The Cerminil is tricky to hone, because it is so hard, and many shops wouldn't touch them. I was unaware of the ring issue and when I called ECI I told them what was going on, and asked about how to hone and re-ring the cylinders, thinking they were just glazed. I essentially got no help at all, except that they could recondition the cylinders for a price not much less than what a new Lycoming Nitrided stud assembly would cost from A.E.R.O. - so I bought four new jugs and put these on the shelf.

I later talked with an ECI VP (this was a few years ago) at SnF, and was told that they certainly would have taken care of me because they knew about the ring issues - I had to thank him for nothing, because by then, I'd already been flying with the Lycoming cylinders.

Bottom line - if you have Cerminil, you might call ECI directly and see if they will help you out.

We pulled two of the cylinders today and they looked very similar. The barrels looked pretty good but here are some pictures of the pistons. Paul, does this like the ring delamination that you mentioned before? Any input from engine experts would be appreciated.

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  #15  
Old 01-09-2016, 04:11 PM
BillFear BillFear is offline
 
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Default With pictures this time?

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  #16  
Old 01-09-2016, 06:48 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFear View Post
We pulled two of the cylinders today and they looked very similar. The barrels looked pretty good but here are some pictures of the pistons. Paul, does this like the ring delamination that you mentioned before? Any input from engine experts would be appreciated.

The pictures didn't post becasue you can't post a link to a directory - you have to post links to individual pictures. But, with my limited magical powers, I was able to go to your photobucket, and yes - the picture of the ring with the coating partially gone is just what I found, and was identified by ECI as delamination. If you can find a shop with the diamond honing tools that ECI specifies for Cerminil, then you should be able to hone and re-ring. If the shop doesn't know that they need special hones for Cerminil, then I might suggest finding another shop.
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  #17  
Old 01-11-2016, 02:52 PM
BillFear BillFear is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
The pictures didn't post becasue you can't post a link to a directory - you have to post links to individual pictures. But, with my limited magical powers, I was able to go to your photobucket, and yes - the picture of the ring with the coating partially gone is just what I found, and was identified by ECI as delamination. If you can find a shop with the diamond honing tools that ECI specifies for Cerminil, then you should be able to hone and re-ring. If the shop doesn't know that they need special hones for Cerminil, then I might suggest finding another shop.
Thanks Paul, here is one more try at posting the photo. You can see the delam in the center of ring and a piece of the material sitting up on the black carbon on the piston side.



Ours are Group A ECI cylinders so at this point we are leaning towards replacing with either new or reworked (Penn Yan) lycoming cylinders. Any experience with Penn Yan reworked cylinders (good or bad) would be appreciated!
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  #18  
Old 01-20-2016, 04:33 PM
BillFear BillFear is offline
 
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Default Went with new ECI Cylinders

As Paul suggested, ECI did help us out some and we ended up buying new ECI Nickel cylinders. Will have and install soon and will report out on our results later.

I have to say, the Continental ECI team handled this well and we are happy with their support and communications.
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  #19  
Old 04-02-2016, 07:15 PM
blastinbill blastinbill is offline
 
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Location: Vienna, Virginia
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Default ECI Cylinder Ring Delamination

Billfear and Ironflight,

I presently have two "Group A" ECI TITAN nickel cylinders on my Lycoming O-360 A1A in a Piper PA-24 (the other two are Lycomings). They were purchased in 2005 and installed to replace two other ECI through-hardened steel cylinders installed by Mattituck in 1998, but retirement of those cylinders was compelled through an AD. Then I get the head-cracking AD and the 50 hour inspection requirement on the ECI nickel cylinders! Oil consumption (1 qt/8 hrs) has been OK and compression in the middle 70's until the present annual inspection (plane is down for it right now, with cowling off). The cylinders have 600 hours on them, and one of them has dipped to 70 psi compression (the bottom limit allowed by the AD) and lower spark plug is oily. Two months ago I called ECI/Continental and talked to Tubbs, I think, and he indicated they would not help me as long as the compression was 70 or above, because he said the delamination occurred on only one small batch of that ring set. The other ECI cylinder is still dry and in the mid 70's. Is the ring delamination starting? Should I go on and get Penn Yann overhauled cylinders now, or wait until the compression drops further so I might get some help from ECI like Bill did?
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